House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Flavor

Burning of Harrenhal

Aegon marched northwest to the Gods Eye and Harrenhal, but he was attacked by House Hoare twice on the south shore of the Gods Eye. The Battle of the Reeds was a Targaryen victory, but they suffered heavy losses at the Wailing Willows when two of King Harren the Black's sons crossed the lake in longboats with muffled oars and fell upon their rear. Balerion fell upon the victors as they were crossing back across the lake, burning Harren's longboats and sons as well.

Harren summoned the river lords to defend Harrenhal, but they rose against the Hoares under the leadership of Lord Edmyn Tully of Riverrun. One by one the river lords joined their strength to Aegon, with Edmyn being the first to do so. Suddenly outnumbered, King Harren the Black took refuge in his supposedly impregnable stronghold. Aegon met Harren at the gates, under a peace banner to parley.

Aegon: Yield now, and you may remain as Lord of the Iron Islands.
Yield now, and your sons will live to rule after you.
I have eight thousand men outside your walls.

Harren: What is outside my walls is of no concern to me.
Those walls are strong and thick.

Aegon: But not so high as to keep out dragons. Dragons fly.

Harren: I built in stone. Stone does not burn.

Aegon: When the sun sets, your line shall end.

Descending from the sky atop Balerion, Aegon used dragonflame against the great castle, and Harren and his sons died in the burning of Harrenhal.

The next day Aegon accepted an oath of fealty from Edmyn Tully, and named him Lord Paramount of the Trident. The other river lords did homage as well, to Aegon as king and Edmyn as liege lord of the riverlands. The melted swords of Harren's ironborn were sent to the Aegonfort.

Execution Vote - Day One

With twenty one players alive - it requires eleven votes to make a decision. Failure to reach a majority results in no execution

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

Lady Lambdadelta [1]:

Thestatusquo

Datisi [1]:

Dwlee99

not voting [10]:

Titus, Andresvmb, Lukewarm, Andante, Charloux, mastina, Lady Lambdadelta, ProfessorDrapion, Bellaphant, Enchant

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-11-25 14:48:35)

mod note

datisi - vla wed/thurs always
I do everything by hand so please pm me if I miss something.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

do not copy paste or quote from a PT that you have access to unless every player in the thread has access to that PT

paraphrasing is allowed.

this is the last warning on this issue.

[GuiltyLion]

(like with dann pushing andante for being andante despite being warned not to do so)

alright Dwlee I'll respond to you

I really don't understand why you think this is scum!indicative and it feels like bs to me

- Dann had already made clear he has no experience with Andante and doesn't know what's in-character for her or what things may be personality indicative vs alignment indicative
- you also conflate a ton of different personality traits into "being Andante" and don't apply any nuance there. Like TSQ was talking about Andante's speech patterns, then when you jumped in on Dann it was for him saying he didn't buy it was genuine that she was shading the thread for not reacting to her posts within 12 hours. That's not a overconfident speech pattern, that's a measure of impatience/hyperactivity, yet you're just assuming Dann should understand that's how she is based on people earlier talking about her 'performative' or 'overconfident' speaking patterns.
- Hence I just don't agree with 727 at all, and also your 727 didn't answer Dann's question which is why you would expect him to understand who Andante is as a person if he's never played with her or talked with her.
- further, why would town!Dann be more likely to listen to a "warning" about these things when he has no personal reason to trust them? like isn't going against the grain of popular opinion often a sign of town being independent and following their own reads/intuition? Why do you prefer the scum!explanation there, what does scum!Dann gain from shitpushing Andante over personality tells and getting blowback for it?

[GuiltyLion]

also Dwlee my other main issue is it felt like you had no real motivation to get involved in the King election and I feel like you should have had more opinions/influence there

do you think this is a fair reason to suspect you? why didn't you try harder to elect a King that you wanted?

[Dwlee99]

If TSQ was making stuff up about Andante's meta, then someone else would call it out. I don't get why Dann would need to be distrustful of that, and Dann hasn't said anything like that so I don't think that's why Dann did any of that.

It's fair enough that it's not speech pattern, it is slightly different, but idk I felt like Dann should have been more careful about making assumptions about Andante's play when it's something in a similar vein to the speech pattern stuff.

[Dwlee99]

I voted for who I thought should be king, that's the influence I had. I don't think it's fair to suspect me for not being super into the minutia of figuring out who I want on every position

[Dwlee99]

And I still don't know if you saw the posts where I explained why I voted for you because you didn't respond to them

[Andante]

also Dwlee my other main issue is it felt like you had no real motivation to get involved in the King election and I feel like you should have had more opinions/influence there

do you think this is a fair reason to suspect you? why didn't you try harder to elect a King that you wanted?

What is the scum motivation to do nothing during a king election? Doesn't scum have the incentive to at least get on the king's good side to try and become a member of council?

I'm kinda confused why none yall are bringing that up, like, ok, we're going for the easiest push of all time right now, and Datisi is like "hey look how confident I am this flips scum!!" just so that when dwlee flips town, datisi won't look bad cause "hey look! meta!" like yall, you're not sitting there at all going "wow there's more scum in the king supporter hood than not supporter"?? hello.. logic... if our king is town, scum only backed him so they'd look good, and win council spots... if king is scum, then whatever, but it's like, I fail to see how we have to INSTANTLY yeet Dwlee this very second, I understand it's like textbook scum, do nothing, dwlee, sure. however there's literally 4 other scum, Dwlee isn't going to be on the council, yet instead of "I think this player who is very likely scum, will be on the council" like, there's no talk of that.

Dann had a moment just recently where it looks like he's wanting town points from a scum!datisi flip, or at the very least, pushing scum!datisi for towncred. I fail to see how town!datisi this pushing Dwlee here is the best idea... like hello, TSQ is picking for a council, and what are we doing "HERE'S A BIG POST ON WHY DWLEE IS SCUM"


like whatever, I heavily suspect Datisi/Dann/GL/UNO/VP like, there's a solid number of scum in that pool, I am 1000% confident, like, these posts here from GL, it's all "Dwlee did nothing for king, so they must be scum!!" like what kind of logic is that? VP straight up buddied TSQ, and has been playing the nice guy to literally everyone and trying to lead town, tell me a single game with VP where he hasn't death tunneled someone as town? VP is strategically playing this to get on the council.

Datisi I keep going back and forth on, but this Dwlee push from him? This threw him back in my SRs

UNO, I haven't seen anything significant from him, he initially was like "Andante king!" as I figured scum would want. like what scum does not want "chaotic me" as king, I called him maf, he went silent and I don't remember anything else he has done, but hey, he "supported" shea for king

Like yall, literally think about it, I had NO SUPPORT to be king. You know I'm "chaotic"/how I play... Why wouldn't scum want me to be king? cause my reads are pretty close to spot on... So like, don't put me on council I don't care, but DO NOT put Datisi/Dan/GL/UNO/VP on council.

like, ok I might not be 100% accurate here, but like, there's conversations we should be having and we're not, instead we're having a "omg dwlee is in scum meta!" conversation.

And for those of yall scum who are "leading" us, I'm town and I can say I haven't been motivated at all to play durring this "popularity contest" talk, and I'm sure many other town feel the same, like sure I'm not giving Dwlee a pass the entire game, but they should at least have a chance to play? like, tunneling isn't gonna help anything, what about having the conversation of "which scum are trying to win council" right now? that feels a whole lot more important.


ok rant over, @Shea Please don't put Dann/Datisi/GL/UNO/VP on council. PLEASE. like, literally anyone else is better, also, I genuinely do not want to be on council, I can't even be a tracker soo yeah I really don't want any of this stuff, kinda why I was like "king is good for me..." but whatever, you do you..

that's kinda my thoughts on this with an emphasis on more of "please lets not lose this game right now. cause all I can see is worst case... we lim town!dwlee, Shea puts a bunch of the supporters on council, and we head down the path of scum winning.

[GuiltyLion]

And I still don't know if you saw the posts where I explained why I voted for you because you didn't respond to them

I saw that and it's fine as an explanation to your thought process for voting me, but it's not really a satisfactory answer to why you didn't like... put more effort into explaining your vote on me, or put more effort into engaging with the discussions around me. I don't think you'll really have a good defense for that other than you haven't been engaged with the game, so it's a bit of a dead end for conversation beyond what we've each said

[GuiltyLion]

@Andante suppose Dwlee is actually just scum who has been coasting/unable to keep up, how do you think we would catch them in that world?

I'm not super confident on Dwlee's alignment, I don't think anyone should be in either direction, but pressuring them is a good idea for exactly that reason. I understand the sentiment that there is probably at least one or two scum who is playing super tryhard and trying to be townread and influential, but that's a lot harder to parse out at this stage from town who is playing tryhard and trying to be townread and influential, and I think it's better to start with focus on lurkers/disengaged slots who are generally more likely going to be scum failing to keep up appearances on the whole rather than starting off with paranoia about townread players before we even have any flips or hard info

[Andante]

@Andante suppose Dwlee is actually just scum who has been coasting/unable to keep up, how do you think we would catch them in that world?

I'm not super confident on Dwlee's alignment, I don't think anyone should be in either direction, but pressuring them is a good idea for exactly that reason. I understand the sentiment that there is probably at least one or two scum who is playing super tryhard and trying to be townread and influential, but that's a lot harder to parse out at this stage from town who is playing tryhard and trying to be townread and influential, and I think it's better to start with focus on lurkers/disengaged slots who are generally more likely going to be scum failing to keep up appearances on the whole rather than starting off with paranoia about townread players before we even have any flips or hard info

I mean, I'm more confident they flip town than scum, just said something in our PT I actually kinda liked, it was with us talking reads, seemed a lot more likely to come from town than scum.

What are your thoughts on Datisi, Dann and VP, I'm really curious on this

[Rhaenyra]

VOTE: VP

[Andante]

I think it's better to start with focus on lurkers/disengaged slots who are generally more likely going to be scum failing to keep up appearances on the whole rather than starting off with paranoia about townread players before we even have any flips or hard info

Why is it not important to focus on the people Shea is literally considering to make council people? it BENEFITS scum to be on the council. They GAIN POWER, I do not see how in the world it is beneficial to only focus on the LHF slots right now. Like, why isn't this about stopping scum from becoming councilmembers? Lurkers/Disengaged slots MIGHT only give us 1 scum, do you seriously believe scum just sat through the king elections doing nothing? I don't understand this thought process.

VOTE: GUILTYLion

[GuiltyLion]

I mean, I'm more confident they flip town than scum, just said something in our PT I actually kinda liked, it was with us talking reads, seemed a lot more likely to come from town than scum.

What are your thoughts on Datisi, Dann and VP, I'm really curious on this

can you summarize what they said? And did it make sense to post in the PT instead of in the main thread?

I think VPB is very town, still one of my strongest townreads, Datisi pretty town - some slight paranoia remaining but I like pretty much all of Datisi's reads and feel like he's genuinely uninformed and solving. Dann I'm conflicted I want to think he's town and there are a few moments where it feels like he's solvey but he's also been kinda distant and I do see where mastina is coming from with him being flat emotionally. I'm currently advocating for the first two on the council but not Dann

[GuiltyLion]

Why is it not important to focus on the people Shea is literally considering to make council people? it BENEFITS scum to be on the council. They GAIN POWER, I do not see how in the world it is beneficial to only focus on the LHF slots right now. Like, why isn't this about stopping scum from becoming councilmembers? Lurkers/Disengaged slots MIGHT only give us 1 scum, do you seriously believe scum just sat through the king elections doing nothing? I don't understand this thought process.

no I agree with you we should be having discussions about council members absolutely, I think my post was poorly phrased if it was suggesting that we shouldn't

I just don't think casting a giant umbrella of shade on everyone is a useful approach and for many of these players it seems like the only real thing you suspect them for is the act itself of trying to be townread and influential, which they would likely be doing as town anyways? I think we'd get a lot more useful information from sussing out our suspects and scumreads instead of just indulging in paranoia over our townreads. Like in our PT Andres is defending Dwlee and pressing Datisi on his push there and I think that's a good discussion to have that wouldn't have come about if we didn't acknowledge the starting point of Dwlee being suspicious

idk if I'm explaining well just feels like you're WIFOMing about a set of players that is more likely to be town, I'd rather start by hunting in a set of players that is more likely to be scum. different approaches to the game here, but I do agree with you we should

also

be talking about the Council at the same time.

[Andante]

I mean, I'm more confident they flip town than scum, just said something in our PT I actually kinda liked, it was with us talking reads, seemed a lot more likely to come from town than scum.

What are your thoughts on Datisi, Dann and VP, I'm really curious on this

can you summarize what they said? And did it make sense to post in the PT instead of in the main thread?

I think VPB is very town, still one of my strongest townreads, Datisi pretty town - some slight paranoia remaining but I like pretty much all of Datisi's reads and feel like he's genuinely uninformed and solving. Dann I'm conflicted I want to think he's town and there are a few moments where it feels like he's solvey but he's also been kinda distant and I do see where mastina is coming from with him being flat emotionally. I'm currently advocating for the first two on the council but not Dann

Yes, I'm not sharing more. It does not make sense to. They are town, we are not limming them. simple as that


ok, questions on these, cause I want help seeing the towniness:

VP is your strongest TR? He's actually my strongest SR so I'd love for you to help me see him as town actually.
Like, I felt like he was just "in charge" the whole time, being super nice to everyone (cause he wants to be on council) and his list for council? Said I can't be king, but I'm supposed to save people? I really need help seeing this one as town, cause I flat out don't

Datisi: cause he's solving he's town? what about this solving makes datisi different from scum!datisi like, obviously he'd do this exact same thing as scum, like what specifically is he doing this game that makes him more likely to be town than scum

Dann: So what is making you TR him? like, I understand the "I want to tr X but idk..." I have a few of those, but what specifically is it in this case

[Thestatusquo]

People definitely on the council

Unowen
Firebringer
Dannflor
Andresvmb

People Who I Was Strongly Thinking About Putting On The Council Who Just Said They Didn't Want It

Andante

Absolutely Not

Enchant
Me
Rhaenyra
Mastina

People Who I Am Paranoid Of And Don't Really Want To Give Power To But At The Same Time Are Very Good Players And It Would Be Extremely Useful For Them To Have Power Roles If They're Town

GuiltyLion
VPB
Datisi
LLD

People Who are Lurkers Who I don't Want To Give Power To

Titus
Dwlee99
Penguin Power
Charloux
Bellaphant

Other

Lukewarm
Junkochan
ProfessorDrapion

[Rhaenyra]

VOTE: TSQ

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

replacing Rhaenyra

[Andante]

People definitely on the council

Unowen

Firebringer

Dannflor

Andresvmb

People Who I Was Strongly Thinking About Putting On The Council Who Just Said They Didn't Want It

Andante

Absolutely Not

Enchant
Me

Rhaenyra

Mastina

People Who I Am Paranoid Of And Don't Really Want To Give Power To But At The Same Time Are Very Good Players And It Would Be Extremely Useful For Them To Have Power Roles If They're Town

GuiltyLion

VPB

Datisi

LLD

People Who are Lurkers Who I don't Want To Give Power To

Titus
Dwlee99
Penguin Power
Charloux
Bellaphant

Other

Lukewarm

Junkochan
ProfessorDrapion

and there's colored with my thoughts.. but I guess if I can only get 1 wish, VP not on council is a really good idea
not saying I LOCK TOWNread the lurkers, but like, they seem towny enough to me, can't wait for scum powers to get unleashed! like, even my SR GL is saying he wouldn't put Dann on council...

[GuiltyLion]

Yes, I'm not sharing more. It does not make sense to. They are town, we are not limming them. simple as that

... can somebody else from the PT explain this then? There's no point to being obstinate here, why would you not want to share something that makes Dwlee town?

VP is your strongest TR? He's actually my strongest SR so I'd love for you to help me see him as town actually.
Like, I felt like he was just "in charge" the whole time, being super nice to everyone (cause he wants to be on council) and his list for council? Said I can't be king, but I'm supposed to save people? I really need help seeing this one as town, cause I flat out don't

Datisi: cause he's solving he's town? what about this solving makes datisi different from scum!datisi like, obviously he'd do this exact same thing as scum, like what specifically is he doing this game that makes him more likely to be town than scum

I already explained VPB several times, most concisely in 1235. I've played with him as scum twice recently and his vibe is just altogether completely different this game. Datisi also agreeing on this reinforces it for me.

"solving" is shorthand for - pushing things I think are useful, engaging with players in ways I think are fair and not disingenuous, doing things to steer the game in a direction I feel is pro-town. Yes, scum!Datisi is going to want to fake those things, but I haven't seen any tells for why it's an emulation or fake where I have seen several things that make me think it's real. Again, here you're just applying logic that feels like "he looks town so he's scum!!"? Like at the end of the day the vast majority of players are town and if I don't see scumtells my default assumption is they're probably town, not probably scum. Give me things you think are scum-indicative if you disagree with me here?

Dann - mostly I can understand the logic of where he's coming from frequently, especially as it relates to me, I just don't feel a ton of motivation or drive from him in actually shaping the game in a significant sense. I did like that he was first to vote on TSQ, I like that a lot actually and should probably weigh it more heavily than I have

[Thestatusquo]

My thought on Unowen is the following:

I think it is highly unlikely that scum!LLD comes into the game and hard town reads her buddy like she did in this game.

That means I think they're extremely unlikely to be aligned.

This gives me two worlds:
1) LLD is town, in which case I will sheep her read on Owen.
2) LLD is scum in which case I think Owen is town.

Either way I think its extremely likely that owen is town.

[GuiltyLion]

like whatever, I heavily suspect Titus/Dwlee/PenguinPower/Charloux/Bellaphant like, there's a solid number of scum in that pool, I am 1000% confident

[Andante]

Yes, I'm not sharing more. It does not make sense to. They are town, we are not limming them. simple as that

... can somebody else from the PT explain this then? There's no point to being obstinate here, why would you not want to share something that makes Dwlee town?

VP is your strongest TR? He's actually my strongest SR so I'd love for you to help me see him as town actually.
Like, I felt like he was just "in charge" the whole time, being super nice to everyone (cause he wants to be on council) and his list for council? Said I can't be king, but I'm supposed to save people? I really need help seeing this one as town, cause I flat out don't

Datisi: cause he's solving he's town? what about this solving makes datisi different from scum!datisi like, obviously he'd do this exact same thing as scum, like what specifically is he doing this game that makes him more likely to be town than scum

I already explained VPB several times, most concisely in 1235. I've played with him as scum twice recently and his vibe is just altogether completely different this game. Datisi also agreeing on this reinforces it for me.

"solving" is shorthand for - pushing things I think are useful, engaging with players in ways I think are fair and not disingenuous, doing things to steer the game in a direction I feel is pro-town. Yes, scum!Datisi is going to want to fake those things, but I haven't seen any tells for why it's an emulation or fake where I have seen several things that make me think it's real. Again, here you're just applying logic that feels like "he looks town so he's scum!!"? Like at the end of the day the vast majority of players are town and if I don't see scumtells my default assumption is they're probably town, not probably scum. Give me things you think are scum-indicative if you disagree with me here?

Dann - mostly I can understand the logic of where he's coming from frequently, especially as it relates to me, I just don't feel a ton of motivation or drive from him in actually shaping the game in a significant sense. I did like that he was first to vote on TSQ, I like that a lot actually and should probably weigh it more heavily than I have

1) Cause I'm not listening to yall go "THAT'S NOT TOWNY"

2) Ok but like the VP I know death tunnels people, like town him was death tunneling me and wouldn't even consider me being town (when I was town) in a recent game? like that's the VP I know, and here it feels like he has just been more about looking towny "everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core" like, to me that feels a lot more like "hey if I play a role in this, I become a part of this"
fame I'm really struggling to see how he'd be town here, like also isn't it easier for scum to town hunt than look for scum?

Datisi: see I was solidly TRing him, until he decided to "case" Dwlee, like, I seriously fail to believe that's something datisi does as town here.. like, he's definitely one of my weaker SRs, like VP I'm 1000% confident, Datisi is more like 70% right now, like I aslo don't feel like he's entirely out of his scum range? maybe if I go dig into meta that'll help, not sure I love that you turned my "how is he not in scum range" into "you're calling the towniest of town, scum!" like, what? if you're scum, this is the person who I'm confident is your partner lol and like that answer doesn't exactly help me go "they're not partners" but mmmk I'll have to do some research on this one I guess... lol that doesn't sound like the best idea, but I have an idea of what I'm looking for, so might get back to you on this one.

Dann- I mean, if the vote on TSQ is the biggest reason to TR him? that again to me is like "I want to be on the king's side!" like I believe he voted TSQ right after VP said "I'd vote for TSQ king" like, ehh that's more just like "I'm on king's side so king puts me on council!" and hey look, Shea wanted him on council, so it worked! Like, idk, he was going at me SO MUCH for just how I talk and even after many people were like "knock it off, that's not scum indicative" he kinda just kept it up, which like, I'm not certain that's what town would do in that situation, like why wouldn't town just go "ok" and move on..


ahhhhhhhhh mafia is hard, I think I just need to let all this sit for tonight and see where my head is at tomorrow. My top 2 concerning folks I need to place are Luke/UNO like, if I can feel confident about my reads there I think the rest of this will be easy

[GuiltyLion]

Andante, I just noticed in KTANE, you said in this post that maf!Dwlee is "0 effort", I believe from context you were saying Dwlee's scum game is they usually put in very little effort. If that was how you felt then, do you agree Dwlee has been zero effort this game? And if so, why are you townreading them?