Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[LlamaFluff]

Continuing at page seven now.

Apoc voting for Cor just to “get discussion moving” is pretty bad, especially considering that Cor has seemed to at least tried to get discussion going by trying to figure out what is happing with the Primate jack-assery. The choice seems arbitrary at best, especially considering how many people look scummier then Cor does. The response from Cor is awesome though, I have to give that much here.

SC votes Ceph for trying to stop the Primate situation, which I want to end just as much as you guys do and I am just rereading. There isnt any content on the Primate wagon, which is a reason for the vote, but that is exactly why the vote is a decent one. No matter what happens in the game we basically have nothing from Primate to go on, and an endgame with him in it would just be painful.

I don’t understand the sudden abandonment of Primates wagon, he obviously isnt going to stop so suddenly it doesn’t matter to the people voting him? Ceph jumping is even more odd then Cor because its admission to of just been playing follow the leader over the whole situation. The discussion and wagon swing here is just weird.

Apoc still is looking scummy with the admission of a page 7 (!?) random vote. At least there is finally commentary on something happening with asking about Primates drawing, even though it basically is just trying to figure out what he thinks of him.

People jump on Zeppo for fishing, and he sound confused about normal and day start game mechanics more then anything else. ML finally calls out Apoc on being useless/scummy, it took someone long enough to realize that he was getting a free ride while looking scummy. Atlas seems to contradict herself a bit by calling Zeppo her top suspect then giving him a newbie pass, yet still is voting him.

Cor makes a good case against SC, and I agree with basically everything that gets said here except for the fact that defending Primate is called a scumtell. He is annoying, but more of a policy vig/lynch instead of a late D1 lynch, so I agree with the defense of him a bit. I hate reading the post war that started right there, but I still side with Cor. One of the biggest points against SC is he really hasn’t made any cases in this game, while remaining overly active. There have been posts saying “hey they aren’t contributing or explaining enough”, but they constantly get abandoned when someone else does something slightly scummy.

I don’t like ML picking out just one part of the case against SC and FoSing Cor for it. There were quite a few decent things in there that seemed to get ignored by him. Zeppo then goes and just ignores everything though, which again I don’t get since this is the first really big exchange in the game. Why people only pay attention to parts of it always confuse me. Apoc again comes in ignoring a majority of the arguments to fence sit on SC, why people are letting this happen is beyond me at this point.

Atlas seems to be hanging on to the Zeppo vote a bit too much right here, since the vote was weakish to start, and given what his views on the case against SC that was recently introduced by Cor is. The discussion on PRs is getting old at this point. I highly doubt Primate had one, I have only seen them in themes, and even then they are very rare.

ML is pulling an Apoc “nothing new, just waiting” thing which is always scummy as hell since the basis of this game is discussion. If no one ever comes up with something new we could just always throw dice to decide lynches. I agree with people jumping on him for it, and don’t like Ceph defending the lack of contribution, which in just about every case is a scummy thing to do.

We again have Apoc coming in to talk about things that don’t pertain to finding scum such as Primates PR, and then he just again comes to no conclusion over Cors alignment. Maybe more then a sentence of analysis would net something here. I looked at his meta though and he seems to always be like this though, regardless of alignment.

I think im about all caught up at this point since this is where I replaced in.

SC and Apoc both look pretty scummy right now, and I will go into more detail on them later. MM, Corvuss and Atlas all look townish to me.

[MiteyMouse]

If player X commits OMGUS against player Y, he or she generally votes after player Y. I used "the latter" to mean player Y as opposed to player X.

Not what I was asking, but thanks for playing!

MM, to clarify, why must a vote come

immediately

after a vote to be OMGUS?

SC, please do not answer for her.

What you said previously was that I immediately OMGUS voted for you. So, there are two parts here...the immediate part and the OMGUS. I don't feel that I did OMGUS vote for you, I explained my reasoning when I posted the vote. It was also not immediate as there were several other posts between...one of which was by me so it was not even my first post after I got back...so not immediate either way. I have never said that an OMGUS vote has to be immediately after to be OMGUS....you put those words in my mouth....

[MacavityLock]

If player X commits OMGUS against player Y, he or she generally votes after player Y. I used "the latter" to mean player Y as opposed to player X.

Not what I was asking, but thanks for playing!

MM, to clarify, why must a vote come

immediately

after a vote to be OMGUS?

SC, please do not answer for her.

What you said previously was that I immediately OMGUS voted for you. So, there are two parts here...the immediate part and the OMGUS. I don't feel that I did OMGUS vote for you, I explained my reasoning when I posted the vote. It was also not immediate as there were several other posts between...one of which was by me so it was not even my first post after I got back...so not immediate either way. I have never said that an OMGUS vote has to be immediately after to be OMGUS....you put those words in my mouth....

OK, let's go through this again. I voted you. In your next post after this, you said "Un-random vote, I'm going to go re-read." 15 minutes later, you voted me with the reason that the 3rd vote is scummy. First of all, I don't think that's a good reason to vote for someone; I think you were coming up with an excuse. In addition, I'd consider those 2 posts as basically being one thought, so don't give me the excuse that it wasn't immediate because you interspersed it with a post specifically to unvote.

MiteyMouse, you, and SC are my top targets right now.

What is your case on MiteyMouse?

Like I said, I called MiteyMouse out early for his blindly following you in your bad logic.

Did I say something wrong?

reeks of scum. Immediate OMGUS vote of me when I voted him. Everything else he's said has been distractions (Primate's PR discussion, discussion of his own PR), and not a single lick of scum-hunting.

I did not OMGUS vote for you....as I said when I placed it, the vote was for you being the third voter and it was not immediate.

I do think we crossed wires here. I read your defense here as saying "It wasn't OMGUS because it wasn't immediate." But now re-reading I think it could be read as "I don't think I OMGUSed, and I don't think it was immediate." OK, sounds like I misinterpreted you here, for which I apologize.

Still, I'm not seeing any of this as a good defense, and my vote stands for now.

[Corvuus]

I have been fairly busy lately, and then I was waiting for Primate (who is being replaced now), and so I need to re-read and marshall my thoughts again if I want any chance at actually being coherent.

However, it seems many of you think that me unvoting Primate was strange, etc. so I can tell you what I was thinking.

In between his 'picture/ven diagram' posts, he had a post of "splp", and his posts had improved (with ven diagram, etc.) and so I took this as an admission of voluntary PR but that he wanted to continue it and I *said* I wouldn't care for him to post in pictures as long as he admits it is voluntary. I thought I should keep my 'promise' and be consistent since that may be the only reason why he posted what he did and 'admitted' it (at least to me).

If he admitted it directly, then the rest of town might have lynched him immediately based on that alone (trying to pass a PR off when it is voluntary), so I accepted it as a type of 'soft breadcrumb', and unvoted. I wouldn't be giving him a free ride, but I could see that he *could* present a picture case if he really tried, so i was ok to leave it be for that instant.

That was my instant reaction to his posts and the 'splp' post. Anti-town in terms of harder to understand, but not an must lynch.

Then I read the picture posts closer, read SC closer, and read MM's comment about why Primate voted for SC (or has him marked as definite scum in the ven diagram) and that made me begin to consider many things.

Mainly.... hmm... and then I messed up.

I got to make dinner now, but I still want primate (replacement) to respond and a primate/SC exchange.

Corv

[MiteyMouse]

Thank you for the appology Macivity. You may not like my reasons for voting you and that is fine. I don't really agree with your reasons for voting me either and that is a part of the game. I have defended against them and have no intention of going over my reasoning again and to top this whole discussion off....I did unvote you. As I have said before though, you are going after me pretty hard for a simple vote here. I'm not sure what you are looking for with going after me but, question away...I don't have a lot to hide.


I'm not sure what to make of SC and his defence of me...it is very odd. I am a newer player to this game and initially I took it as him taking me under his wing but, it is odd. (I do appreciate it if you are just taking me under your wing...but would hate it if it ended up being a Scummy wing...hehehe!)

[Huntress]

Ythill replaces Primate

[Ythill]

Hello all.

It's late and I just got my role PM. Will catch up over the next day or two.

[Cephrir]

*happy dance*

Based on recent posts by MM and Macavity, I think Macavity wins the argument, but I haven't been following that back-and-forth too attentively.

[Elmo]

The above post seems to indicate we are collectively tunnel-vision'd into "Macavity and MM are arguing, therefore exactly one of them are scum". This is not a good thing.

Macavity seems townish to me; what is the case against MM?

[Atlas]

Atlas seems to be hanging on to the Zeppo vote a bit too much right here, since the vote was weakish to start, and given what his views on the case against SC that was recently introduced by Cor is.

If you are referring to #203 I wasn't voicing suspicion on Zeppo there, though I think it was unhelpful that he completely ignored everything Coruvuus put out. I left my vote on him because of this.

By the way, I`m a bit suspicious of Sminty (you) for a couple of reasons.

• 1) The opportunistic vote in #163. It looked like he voted Cephir simply because it was a great place to park his vote without having to explain it fully. And given Cephir's earlier unexplained vote I doubted that Sminty actually found it suspicious, or suspicious enough to vote on.
  2) In his third post Sminty doesn't dedicate himself to any player but spreads out his suspicions strangely. He says "I've got my eye on Evilgorrilaz and Ceph" but is still suspicious of Mitey. Given that Mitey finds Evilgorrilaz and Cephir suspect as well, it just looks like Sminty is trying to keep his options open by suspecting everyone while not going in full force against any player.
  3) I thought his vote on Primate was kind of stupid because he outwardly said "THIS VOTE IF FOR PRESSURE ONLY" and "I DON'T THINK PRIMATE IS SCUM", but that's just me.

Mitey

:

Every time someone mentions this, Cephir says "But I always explained them [my votes] afterwards" as a defense, which I find acceptable (not that I found it scummy in the first place). To avoid repetition, could you respond to one of several said defenses?

I think it's important that you refute a defense provided by your top suspect (still Cephir, right?). Right now I don't see you doing anything with him.

Elmo I don't think that way but I still believe that Mitey is scum and Macavity is town.

Apothecary is just playing ultra-conservative (e.g. "I

think

that

perhaps

Corvuus is scummy")

[Ythill]

Reread complete. It was quick, so forgive me if I missed some details. I'll inevitably reread this game several times and eventually will have at least as good a command as the rest of you.

First off, some answers that were not provided by my predecessor...

Obviously, there is no mod-enforced PR. I don't know why Primate was doing the picture thing but I can't say I'm upset about it. His behavior drew out at least one good tell and, knowing his alignment, I find his visual breadcrumbs more enlightening than the rest of you do. However, even I do not know what the military patches mean.

SC was indeed Primate's PE#1. Someone asked whether this was based on Nz info and I can confirm that it was not. My role has no more info at this point than anyone else. Having reread, I see where Primate was coming from with his suspicions. In the first few pages, SC seemed to be trying a little too hard to push things out of the RVS. I've come around to a townier opinion of him since then. Not

townie

, just

townier

. I currently have him @ MotR.

Finally, as long as you keep in mind that I am not Primate and am incapable of reading his mind, I can try to answer any other questions you might have for me about his actions.

On to current topics...

Corvus is going to be frustrating to me. I don't see it as scummy, but I very much dislike his my-way-or-the-highway style of play. Different people play this game differently and that fact seems to get his ire up. He seems to have a black-and-white view of what is and isn't pro-town, which means that he's creating a lot of smoke where we need clarity. I don't intend to vote or pressure him for it because I don't see it being suspicious, but I will probably give him grief for it as the game progresses.

A few of you (including Corvus) are looking for buddies already. I call such evidence conspiracy theory and I don't like it. It leads to confirmation bias, false conclusions, and mislynches.

My chief suspects are Atlas, Apothacary (whom I will forthwith refer to as Rx), and Mitey.

Mitey hasn't been very suspicious, but has placed a couple of weak votes. Chief tell against her, IMO, is something that has not yet been mentioned. In #110, MM confuses the monkeys, which is not a big deal in itself. Then, in #114, she slips in that comment about how town are more likely than scum to make subtle slips. Together, these two posts demonstrate an overly-guilty attitude that I find often indicates scum. This, combined with the weak votes, does not add up to enough for a vote, but I will be keeping a close eye on Mitey.

Rx is a lurker, which is only enough to make me look at him closely, but that scrutiny has revealed a few tells. Others have already mentioned some of these and I will not bother repeating. What bothers me most is his timing dichotomy. When he pops in unbidden, Rx asks things like whether we are past random voting, which makes it seem like he is not paying attention to the game. But when he’s called out, like in #174, he shows up within two hours to post a coherent defense (in #176). Coincidence? Maybe, but I smell a rat. I also don’t like the way Rx seemed unnecessarily defensive in #227, clearly responding to the attacks on Mac's prod-avoidance.

Atlas has been slinging lots of mud, trying to find a place where it will stick. It

could

be an aspect of his early game play and therefore null, but time will tell. I don’t like Atlas’ entrance, where he tries to bog things down with theory. And I don’t like his more recent buddying.

The worst tell against Atlas, IMO, starts in #157, wherein he tries to transform the pressure wagon on Primate into an alignment wagon. He does it via a very unlikely hypothesis (that a PR would make it easier to avoid the noose) and a glaringly false dilemma (that either the PR is mod-dictated or Primate is scum). He initiates and continues to push this stance, citing an assumptive gut feeling, without placing a vote or even a FoS, even though he gets evidence that the PR is voluntary. Once the wagon loses steam, Atlas changes his stance with no good reasoning.

I find it odd that Llama, sharp as he is, completely missed these Atlas tells. But, like I said, I don’t like conspiracy theory, so I will just file this last bit for after we have a card-flip.

unvote; vote: Atlas

[Atlas]

Atlas has been slinging lots of mud, trying to find a place where it will stick. It could be an aspect of his early game play and therefore null, but time will tell.

I didn't start suspecting anyone until I voted for Zeppo, where I was suspicious of a grand total of

three

players. I doubt that's much higher than anyone else, especially Sminty, whom in his third post gave an "I'm looking at you without doing anything!" to three players and essentially called four others lurkers. Afterwards I became suspicious of Primate (who didn't?) and Sminty. I believe that was justified and Sminty stopped posting right after, so I couldn't go anywhere with it.

I don’t like Atlas’ entrance, where he tries to bog things down with theory. And I don’t like his more recent buddying.

I was trying to get people into discussion that is relevant to the game. And I don't see how it was possible to "bog things down" when the only thing going on at the time was banter about Mitey's name. What buddying are you talking about?

The worst tell against Atlas, IMO, starts in #157, wherein he tries to transform the pressure wagon on Primate into an alignment wagon.

Not really. I was giving my opinion, not trying to transform anything. At the time I think that everyone who was voting for Primate thought along the lines of "It's anti-town, but not scummy." I disagreed with this and pointed out why.

He does it via a very unlikely hypothesis (that a PR would make it easier to avoid the noose) ...

You say this as if there are any other logical reasons for Primate to fake a PR. As town,

are

there any others? One Primate-town scenario I could think of (pointed out in #171) was that he is simply PRing to get reactions and trap scum going for an easy lynch, which is more distracting than helpful. Especially in hindsight since Primate got replaced.

and a glaringly false dilemma (that either the PR is mod-dictated or Primate is scum)

I did not present a false dilemma because I pointed out the possibility of Primate fishing for reactions. It's true that in #157 I only suggested two situations, but that's because they were the most likely. If I actually believed that his alignment revolved around two scenarios (one of which you agree is wrong) then I would have voted for him.

He initiates and continues to push this stance, citing an assumptive gut feeling, without placing a vote or even a FoS, even though he gets evidence that the PR is voluntary.

My top suspect was Zeppo--I don't have two votes. And a FoS certainly wasn't necessary after I blatantly stated that Primate is scummy.

Once the wagon loses steam, Atlas changes his stance ...

What?

[MacavityLock]

Apothecary is just playing ultra-conservative (e.g. "I

think

that

perhaps

Corvuus is scummy")

Are you defending Apoc for some reason? Is ultra-conservative play a town-tell?

Not

townie

, just

townier

. I currently have him @ MotR.

Sorry, I don't think I know the term. MotR?

[Atlas]

No, I think it's a glaring scum-tell and I am not defending him.

Middle of the Road.

[MacavityLock]

Mainly.... hmm... and then I messed up.

Confused about what you mean here.

No, I think it's a glaring scum-tell and I am not defending him.

The was you said "just playing ultra-conservative" felt like defending.

Middle of the Road.

Thanks.

[Apothecary]

Ythill, why am I being called RX now?
Just out of interest, I would like to know how I appear scummy to other players. Just so I can defend myself, and help the town out later.

[StrangerCoug]

A few of you (including Corvus) are looking for buddies already. I call such evidence conspiracy theory and I don't like it. It leads to confirmation bias, false conclusions, and mislynches.

That (and thanks a lot for the insight—it's very useful) and it simply makes no sense to me.

[Ythill]

I didn't start suspecting anyone until I voted for Zeppo, where I was suspicious of a grand total of three players.

Zeppo in your #10, Primate in #12, Sminty in #14, SC in #19, MM in #28, and Rx in #32 (post #’s in isolation). That’s just your suspicions. Mud-slinging also refers to the way you act as neutral instigator in some arguments.

Afterwards I became suspicious of Primate (who didn't?)

Everyone. Plenty of people claimed that his voluntary PR was counter-productive. You were the only one who put forth a (flawed) scenario whereby it demonstrated his alignment.

I was trying to get people into discussion that is relevant to the game.

General theory discussion is relevant to MD, not to this specific game. Bringing it up can be a way to distract the town and eventually lead a witch-hunt against those who disagree with the majority. Scum aren't the only ones who do this, but IME, they do it more often than town.

What buddying are you talking about?

#10, #19, #23, #24, #27 (in isolation).

It’s interesting that the targets remain constant, demonstrating a level of favoritism that belies a pro-town alignment.

The worst tell against Atlas, IMO, starts in #157, wherein he tries to transform the pressure wagon on Primate into an alignment wagon.

Not really. I was giving my opinion, not trying to transform anything.

An opinion based on faulty logic, that possibly serves ulterior motives, pushed without a vote on a growing wagon against an unpopular player is a serious tell in my book. Maybe you were just sharing. Maybe not.

You say this as if there are any other logical reasons for Primate to fake a PR. As town,

are

there any others?

My first thought was that it was a meta-game strategy. Plenty of players adopt a personna so as to attain the best win ratio over multiple games. But that's beside the point. You asserted that his style had scummy motives behind it, it is not my responsability to prove that it was townie, but rather your place to prove that what you said was rational.

PRs draw attention, they ostricize players who have them. One of the points of adding a PR is to make survival difficult for a player. A PR, fake or otherwise,

does not

help someone avoid the noose. Explain how it does.

I did not present a false dilemma because I pointed out the possibility of Primate fishing for reactions. It's true that in #157 I only suggested two situations, but that's because they were the most likely.

Player X: "Do you know what time it is?"
Player Y: "Yes, but not right now."

Start making sense.

Saying

either A is true or player X is scum

where A = something that is obviously untrue, and where other options exist, is a false dilemma. Look it up. Then, rather than pretend you didn't do it, explain why you did it.

If I actually believed that his alignment revolved around two scenarios (one of which you agree is wrong) then I would have voted for him.

Your lack of a vote was one of the questionable bits. Now you twist it into a defense? You were pushing without voting, hoping that townies would say

yeah, you know, that primate is afully scummy

and, if they had, I'm certain you would have voted him later.

Once the wagon loses steam, Atlas changes his stance ...

What?

#172: Corvus unvotes.
#173: Cephrir unvotes.
#174: Mac’s done talking about Primate.
#181: Atlas is getting sick of it too, and isn’t encouraging it continuing.
#182: Mac thinks we should start treating Primate like any other player.
#n (multiple): the tide turns to SC and that argument pits him against Primate in a way that suggests Primate is town.
#203: Atlas agrees with Mac’s #182 and then drops the Primate-is-scummy argument, even saying that Primate is likely town!

[Ythill]

Ythill, why am I being called RX now?

I work on the fringes of the medical field. Rx is the medical abbreviation for apothecary.

[LlamaFluff]

For the majority of the game, Apoc has been not only a lurker, but scummy on top of that. For some reason people have turned a blind eye to these comments and actions, which is overdue to end.

Following the confirmation post, Apocs first two posts are basically clones of eachother. They both apologize for not being active, and ask if the random stage has ended yet. This shows a level of apathy towards the game since the random stage was obviously over by the second post. There is an extreme unwillingness to do any scumhunting in these two posts, as the second one even asks people to take up the job for him, by asking for any “tangible evidence” that had been revealed so far.

During the debate over Primates PR, Apoc decides it is the best time to random vote for Cor in order to get the game moving. The game WAS moving at that point. Discussion was being accomplished, votes were being made based on evidence that were made with lynch intention. Trying to take away from what was happening at that point in the game by random voting then is very scummy.

The next post affirms that the Cor vote was made soley with the intent to be random, and Apoc makes his first game related discussion. This though is in response to what another player thinks about his alignment. It feels pretty odd that the first thing to be discussed in a game that was as in depth as this one was is anothers opinion on you.

Next we have some attempted discussion about alignments, but they all just end up as fence sitting comments. Apoc cant decide if SC is apathetic town or scum, and later cant decide if Cor is scum riling people up or extreamist townie. So now we are quite a ways into the game, and Apoc is random voting, while haven giving no thoughts on anyones alignment, only some responses to thoughts on his.

As Ythill mentioned, there is a phenomenon here where Apoc shows up just about whenever he is addressed, or an aggressive movement towards him is made, the most recent example being me calling him scummy in my analysis of the game. After quite a few call outs though he does seem to come to conclusions that Cor is scummy and Primate is townie though. Some more in depth reasoning for Cor though would be nice, especially since he is one of the most town players to me.

Not voting quite yet since I want to reread SC again first before I decide where my vote is best placed. It will be one of these two though.

[MacavityLock]

I think it's time for Apoc to get some pressure.

Unvote. Vote: Apoc.

That most recent post is awful. Others have detailed their cases on you. You can't care enough to look up those reasons, to explain yourself, or to scumhunt.

[Apothecary]

Okay, thank you Ythill for explaining that.
I personally called Corvuus out because he was in favour of voting someone because they were being annoying and, I admit, a little anti town. I thought he looked scummy then, and personally I think you are using posts later on in the game where he's appearing more town as a comparison.
And I actually asked if we were working with tangible evidence, not asking people to present to me.
When I said I wanted discussion to get moving, it was because we were stuck with people arguing over the pictures, and the game had stagnated.
Personally, now, I think Corvuus is town, a little extremist, but still town.

Unvote

[Atlas]

Zeppo in your #10, Primate in #12, Sminty in #14, SC in #19, MM in #28, and Rx in #32 (post #’s in isolation). That’s just your suspicions. Mud-slinging also refers to the way you act as neutral instigator in some arguments.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out suspicious activity on six players, especially if your top suspect remains the same for the majority of the time. And now can you cite where I have been a "neutral instigator"?

Everyone. Plenty of people claimed that his voluntary PR was counter-productive. You were the only one who put forth a (flawed) scenario whereby it demonstrated his alignment.

True, but I meant who didn't find him anti-town. This is kind of irrelevant now though.

General theory discussion is relevant to MD, not to this specific game. Bringing it up can be a way to distract the town and eventually lead a witch-hunt against those who disagree with the majority. Scum aren't the only ones who do this, but IME, they do it more often than town.

There are many cases where theory discussion does not value the town, but this isn't one of them. In orde

#10, #19, #23, #24, #27 (in isolation).

Okay, by buddying do you mean buddying up to players or lumping people together? Because several of those posts contain one or the other, or neither.

An opinion based on faulty logic, that possibly serves ulterior motives, pushed without a vote on a growing wagon against an unpopular player is a serious tell in my book. Maybe you were just sharing. Maybe not.

Fair enough. You are up to interpret it the way you want, but I don't see how you could interpret that one post as "pushing". In #14 and #15 I asked Primate suspicion-devoid questions with the intention of getting him to behave more pro-town, which would surely discourage his lynch. In #16 I mentioned a Primate-town scenario, and two posts after that I actually reconsidered my suspicions. Essentially I was acting against his lynch in all outside of

one

post.

And if you look back, right before his wagon died (#172) Primate was only digging his hole deeper by posting an array of characters that would debunk and mod-imposed PR theory in anyone's mind. It wouldn't make any sense for me to attempt to make his situation

better

during a period when Primate wasn't doing himself any good.

Explain how it does.

Like I said earlier if Primate kept up the act without ever stopping, e.g. when he gets dangerously close to a lynch, then some portion of the town would believe that he actually does have a PR. Of course I never did and the same goes for several players, but the amount of people who were either uncertain or willing to let Primate play this way backs up my theory. If the majority of the town decided to let Primate play regularly then he would surely have an easier game.

Saying either A is true or player X is scum where A = something that is obviously untrue, and where other options exist, is a false dilemma. Look it up. Then, rather than pretend you didn't do it, explain why you did it.

Ythill, when you posted your case you

knew

that I considered three possibilities, and you

knew

that I clearly didn't follow only two of them, A) and B). If you restrict the thread to #157 alone, which is what you are doing, then sure I presented a false dilemma. I excluded scenario C) because it seemed like a pretty stupid gambit, but after Primate posted words, numbers and concise diagrams I reconsidered possibility Primate-town C) and posted it.--Not because he seemed more pro-town in those few posts, but because he debunked possibility B) even further.

Player X: "Do you know what time it is?"
Player Y: "Yes, but not right now."

Regardless of what I said above, the time isn't based on your ever-changing opinion. If you asked me if New York City was going to blow up anytime soon and I said "No", and then a day later I found a radioactive exploding man, I would

probably

change that no to "maybe". It follows the same premise of what I did with Primate.

Your lack of a vote was one of the questionable bits. Now you twist it into a defense? You were pushing without voting, hoping that townies would say yeah, you know, that primate is afully scummy and, if they had, I'm certain you would have voted him later.

How is my lack of a vote questionable? I was voting for !Zeppo! because he was my top suspect. And yes, the false dilemma accusation is a defense. If I thought Primate's alignment came down to A) or B) then I would have voted for him, because B) seemed unlikely and the only other scenario was A) which made him scum.

The was you said "just playing ultra-conservative" felt like defending.

I see how you would interpret it that way, but when I said "just" I meant it like "Apoc isn't doing anything helpful but

just

playing ultra-conservatively." Tone is important here.

I agree with #294.

[Cephrir]

I'll have to read through all that again later before I can comprehend it.

[Atlas]

I just noticed I forgot to respond to a point.

Ythill, I never dropped the Primate-is-scummy argument. The only thing that happened was Cougar looked scummier and succeeded Primate. And since I thought it was unlikely for both of them to be scum, the next likeliest scenario was Cougar- scum and Primate-town.