i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[MathBlade]

Yes because asking a basic question while resisting the urge to punch a wall somehow makes me townier.

You okay?

Going to try to catch up while on a break. Might disappear have been having a rough shift.

If frog isn't town that all seems very deliberate, almost jestery

Pretty much. It's easy to point out how thin frog's reads can be sometimes, considering he tries to read the entire game immediately regardless of how much actual content there is. It's less easy to prove he's scum based off of that. I think the most of Owl's post makes frog's thought processes seem illogical but not for any particular purpose.

this part caught my eye though:

post 145 - "as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."
frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

@Quiet Owl: this comment in frog's post 145 pings me as odd:

"I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

I feel like a townie there would not be saying "+town for both of us" compared with "+town for you". It seems an unnatural way to phrase it and to me makes it feel like frog is more focused on guiding others to read him as town (as with the other comment you noted in the same post) rather than on trying to read others.

I agree this is scummy

I've been waiting for someone else to point it out, but frogster keeps making comments like 'the town needs to stick together' and comes up with town blocs/speaks about the necessity of town blocs (not just one.) Goes from seeing himself as super best friends with Titus to not in the span of 21 posts. I've found the third party read of Ythan cute, but at this point I'm sure this game is multiball.

This seems more like town behaviour than scum behaviour to me. My reads are more static as scum. I also probably wouldn't spin around to tinfoil after mason claims after previously establishing them as town. It all seems like erratic town thought processing. But I'm not frog sure

The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, but a D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votes and has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.

I just can't fathom why or how scum can claim masons with another player on D1 and expect to get anywhere. So I bin them as town pretty much

It's weird that it happened so quickly but i see town claim their roles with less votes tbh. I don't discount that there's something that feels off I guess. Usually masons are kept a tight secret, so you'd expect like maybe imagine claims by himself -- but Titus claimed for imagine, outting 2 masons at once? Why?

Titus seems stressed by something and tends to be pretty suboptimal when stressed. I don’t see this as scum but based on the fact she claimed it I would go with town panic. I did a similar panic as town a long time ago when myself and my mason buddy were the top two wagons.

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

Why do you think there’s two town blocks? That’s rather odd and uncharacteristic of you. Not scummy just unique so I would like to know why.

Sounds like a question more likely to be asked by scum.

Owl or Frog?

Owl, I think Owl’s analysis makes sense because I don’t understand many of Frog’s takes. He posted examples of scum making fake claims but none of those claims used the exact expression “mod confirmed”. I’ve never seen a fake claim in any mafia game ever where scum used that specific phrasing.

You need to look for those little tells not ignore them, so I don’t understand how Frog is ignoring that. I could see town!Frog being really tunnelled. I also think if he were scum, he’d be less likely to keep changing his vote since scum in general aren’t very adaptable.

Seems like white knighting. I find it unlikely kittens actually thinks Owl's analysis is good.

I think the detail of that take looks like Owl put a lot of thought and analysis into that post. It didn’t read to me like iioa. Do you disagree with that?

I think that it’s really odd. Like why the jump to multiball. I don’t doubt the thought it’s more an oddity to solve.

[MathBlade]

In other words I think if it is multiball then everyone is scum hunting so how we find scum changes.

If it’s not multiball then not scum hunting is a valid call out.

Ironically enough I think if it’s singleball Quiet Owl > rand town or multiball > rand scum.

[kitten around]

In other words I think if it is multiball then everyone is scum hunting so how we find scum changes.

If it’s not multiball then not scum hunting is a valid call out.

Ironically enough I think if it’s singleball Quiet Owl > rand town or multiball > rand scum.

I don’t have any clue but if it’s singleball than it’s very different from any past Xyzzy game I’ve spectated.

[Frogsterking]

I think the detail of that take looks like Owl put a lot of thought and analysis into that post. It didn’t read to me like iioa. Do you disagree with that?

You're the only one whose bringing up IIOA, AFAIK. I'm saying Quiet Owl's analysis in 906 is pretty sparse and surface level, to the extent that anyone quick with a mouse and keyboard could write it in 30 seconds upon request, even if they've never played a game of mafia in their life. I think if you were really Town it would be easier for you to recognize this.

I'm open to believing you that you're confused about my reaction, I think what could be happening is that you're pretending to view the game how you think a townie would, and you skimmed Owl's post and thought it would be normal townie thing to be persuaded by. It isn't.

[MathBlade]

Do you have some examples of setups? I have got a lot to read so don’t have time to read other games on top of that but some examples might be nice so I can get a “feel” for the mech so to speak.

[Frogsterking]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

You're being an ass here. Back off.

So much for the "Quiet" Owl.

[Frogsterking]

Do you have some examples of setups? I have got a lot to read so don’t have time to read other games on top of that but some examples might be nice so I can get a “feel” for the mech so to speak.

Lamist, and classic scum assigning busy work. Whoever Math is talking to isn't aligned with them I don't think.

[MathBlade]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

You're being an ass here. Back off.

So much for the "Quiet" Owl.

Are you trying to piss off the thread here? *raised eyebrow*

What is your point here?

[MathBlade]

Do you have some examples of setups? I have got a lot to read so don’t have time to read other games on top of that but some examples might be nice so I can get a “feel” for the mech so to speak.

Lamist, and classic scum assigning busy work. Whoever Math is talking to isn't aligned with them I don't think.

I literally like to get a handle on mech because people make decisions based on it.

You know I play by mech.

[kitten around]

I think the detail of that take looks like Owl put a lot of thought and analysis into that post. It didn’t read to me like iioa. Do you disagree with that?

You're the only one whose bringing up IIOA, AFAIK. I'm saying Quiet Owl's analysis in 906 is pretty sparse and surface level, to the extent that anyone quick with a mouse and keyboard could write it in 30 seconds upon request, even if they've never played a game of mafia in their life. I think if you were really Town it would be easier for you to recognize this.

I'm open to believing you that you're confused about my reaction, I think what could be happening is that you're pretending to view the game how you think a townie would, and you skimmed Owl's post and thought it would be normal townie thing to be persuaded by. It isn't.

I suppose that’s possible? I did think it made sense as a valid analysis and still do. I suppose it’s possible scum could also have made that post. It just really made sense to me because of what I know about past Xyzzy games.

[Quiet Owl]

I think that it’s really odd. Like why the jump to multiball. I don’t doubt the thought it’s more an oddity to solve.

i came looking for a bastard game that wouldn't let me solve things via setup speculation, therefore i am assuming there could be literally anything in this game. multiball seems pretty tame and a decent explanation for scummy players going at each other's throats in a way that doesn't seem like theatre.

[Frogsterking]

It just really made sense to me because of what I know about past Xyzzy games.

What does this mean?

[Titus]

You think Math has to be an overbearing jerk in every game to be town, or just me in particular?

While this has sass, the intent is serious.

[MathBlade]

Everything is derivative

No everything is an integral.

*joke*

[Frogsterking]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

*middle finger gif*

Sorry a bit of a reaction but still.

You think Math has to be an overbearing jerk in every game to be town, or just me in particular?

Math, Titus and Quiet Owl are all missing the point I made, in that Math is "pretending" to be empathetic toward Titus. As in, he is explicitly approaching Titus in a saccharine way which he only does as scum trying to pocket people. If I'm wrong about this, then feel free to disprove me.

[MathBlade]

Oh yay! So frog is assigning the busywork he calls scummy.

Sure, excuse me just a moment.

[Frogsterking]

As far as I'm concerned, Math is an exceptionally polarized player and this is scum!Math. Once they have a chance to post more I may change my mind.

[KittyTacky]

Okay and the reasons for Frogger are…?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

Basically I agree with Quiet Owl that Frog is acting weird. Borderline like a jester which makes me stumble for a moment but I think he's just scum trying to lead the game.

[KittyTacky]

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[/url]

If you weren't the legend himself, I'd have questioned you putting yourself as null.

Do you ever feel like you just don’t know yourself?

Yeah mood lol.

[MathBlade]

As far as I'm concerned, Math is an exceptionally polarized player and this is scum!Math. Once they have a chance to post more I may change my mind.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=90102&user_select%5B%5D=22566

Here’s your busy work.

My reads were crap and Titus was scum but I did work with her pretty well when I could.

[kitten around]

It just really made sense to me because of what I know about past Xyzzy games.

What does this mean?

Xyzzy setups are frequently either bastard or mech complex if not both. They had a jester in one game and a scum recruiter role in another and I think you look like you’re trying to solve but ignoring things like Titus saying “mod confirmed” for example.

But if this game is anything like those other Xyzzy games I spectated, then it explains why I’m so confused so far in this game. I expect that will change once we get some flips.

[KittyTacky]

But unlike Quiet is doing now I don't think he's just aggravated town. He's scum for those reasons. or 3p.

[MathBlade]

Okay and the reasons for Frogger are…?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

Basically I agree with Quiet Owl that Frog is acting weird. Borderline like a jester which makes me stumble for a moment but I think he's just scum trying to lead the game.

I am leaning more he just doesn’t like me as a player.

We butted heads hard last game we were in and I pushed scum BGC hard and he pushed scum Pooky hard.

[KittyTacky]

If he's jest he deserves the win. /hj

[MathBlade]

Don’t get me wrong I don’t have a read on him yet but I don’t think Frog actually scumreads me here based on his weird play.

I think Frog is reaction testing and getting out some annoyance.