Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

[Past Present Future]

Or, when placed in context: does T-Bone let this claim happen?
I believe professotic would.

Do you want my input on this, or would that be too much WIFOM?

I would very much appreciate your input on this!

Okay, so the short answer is, no, not if it was a fake claim. The long answer will require us to make some assumptions, namely that I am scum with MMR and Ydrasse. Ydrasse isn't posting as much as MMR was, so in terms of who would be valuable to the scumteam, that's MMR. We're not giving up his slot on a fakeclaim. We're also not fakeclaiming on PPF, who poses no threat to our team. They hard townread Ydrasse, and didn't have enough town equity to lead a lim on MMR or I. PPF only becomes a threat if a townblock forms with them, mastina-slot, yume-slot, and then someone like you or Mathblade to lead it. I think if you believe nothing else from this post, know that I don't view players who rely on metareads as a threat, so there's no way if I had input onto this plan that I allow it. Yes I bus and Ydrasse would have been a prime bus candidate, but Ydrasse is only valuable as a bus candidate if MMR is still alive for this hypothetical scumteam I'm not on.

Now if we believed PPF was Solar scum? Then I'd like to think we'd have a better plan than what MMR came up with. But even then, in multiball I don't value eliminating the other scumteam early, so I don't know for sure, but there's a chance if I believed we confirmed scum from the other team, we sit on the info until we need it to save ourselves. IE the town seriously starts to consider one of us as scum down the line, so that's when MMR drops the bombshell that PPF is scum.

I usually think a lot in games how I would play it much better if I were scum, and that's easy for me to do as town, but less easy for you to believe when you don't know my alignment. I honestly think had I rolled scum this game the team I was on would be in a much better position than the teams find themselves in now.

Oh yes I missed it lol reading now

That’s not the post I need to prove Mastina’s point. Find that one and the other two follow.

[Past Present Future]

What I've asked for is for you to lay out the case that it's *obvious*, as you claim, that MMR just 100% lied about their result on you, because that conclusion is not only not obvious to me but not a likely explanation of what has happened

and instead of a case for that

I'm getting quotes followed by

'Yeah totally makes sense they weren’t lying. If you want to keep ignoring blatant evidence they lied, then there’s absolutely no point my wasting anymore time with this.'

Which makes it very hard to follow what your actual thoughts are behind the subject!

Seriously how in the actual fuck do you even expect me to engage with you when you continue to post crap that I know to be false?

[Dingle Dangle Scarecrow]

You mean lied about that. Because I know that’s impossible so it’s just really frustrating if you’re going to continue to say something I know to be a lie isn’t. I know we’re town, so if you’re goal is to just tilt me with this,,
keep it up but we’re going to flip town. When you’re seriously willing to look at the evidence why this is wrong. let me know because I seriously feel like I’m going to lose brain cells continuing to argue with someone who clearly is refusing to listen to reason.

Okay so you're not willing to make the case that this is as obvious as you think it is.

I'm not the only one who thinks this isn't as obvious as you think it is. T-Bone doesn't see it obviously from your perspective. CSF doesn't.
The problem is not that we're all not smart enough to see what's incredibly obvious. The problem is that the situation is not incredibly obvious to begin with.

You can engage with that to the level that you wish. I've lost interest in persuading you to engage from the perspective of town who doesn't know you're town.

[Dingle Dangle Scarecrow]

8169 is very believable from a town perspective fwiw.

[Past Present Future]

Tl;Dr I don't think that PPF should be vigged over mastina.
-Rubella

Yeah totally makes sense they weren’t lying. If you want to keep ignoring blatant evidence they lied, then there’s absolutely no point my wasting anymore time with this.

This isn't actually making a statement. You're still supposing your conclusion without making any argument.

My response to what you're trying to imply here is: this post was before MMR voted you, and

before MMR realised what they had was a guilty on you

.

Like this one for example, how do you expect me to engage with that garbage and if you’re objective is to get to the truth instead of trying to tilt me, why do you keep posting this? I know it’s false and it just makes me not want to bother discussing anything with you.

[Past Present Future]

8169 is very believable from a town perspective fwiw.

And where am I disagreeing with that?

[Dingle Dangle Scarecrow]

8169 is very believable from a town perspective fwiw.

And where am I disagreeing with that?

You're not. Not everything I'm posting is a direct accusation of you being on the opposing side of me in an argument

[Past Present Future]

What I've asked for is for you to lay out the case that it's *obvious*, as you claim, that MMR just 100% lied about their result on you, because that conclusion is not only not obvious to me but not a likely explanation of what has happened

and instead of a case for that

I'm getting quotes followed by

'Yeah totally makes sense they weren’t lying. If you want to keep ignoring blatant evidence they lied, then there’s absolutely no point my wasting anymore time with this.'

Which makes it very hard to follow what your actual thoughts are behind the subject!

Seriously how in the actual fuck do you even expect me to engage with you when you continue to post crap that I know to be false?

I’m not going to continue to bang my head against a brick wall if all of my attempts to show you that I know this isn’t true continue to fall on deaf ears. I’m town, not a fucking masochist!

[Dingle Dangle Scarecrow]

That's fine, like I said, I have lost interest in this conversation, you do not need to continue

[Past Present Future]

I know I promised to look up those posts but I need not to respond to this for awhile because every time you keep insisting they had a guilty when I know they didn’t, I feel like putting my fist through a freaking wall. I obviously wouldn’t do that but I just can’t read anymore of that.

Make up your mind, I can try my damndest to show you why this doesn’t make sense but not if you’re going to continue to post that. No game is worth it. I’m done for now.

[Past Present Future]

What I've asked for is for you to lay out the case that it's *obvious*, as you claim, that MMR just 100% lied about their result on you, because that conclusion is not only not obvious to me but not a likely explanation of what has happened

and instead of a case for that

I'm getting quotes followed by

'Yeah totally makes sense they weren’t lying. If you want to keep ignoring blatant evidence they lied, then there’s absolutely no point my wasting anymore time with this.'

Which makes it very hard to follow what your actual thoughts are behind the subject!

I have given you points.

We 100% knew Math was going to vig us, so why wouldn’t scum!us kill him?
VCA points away from it.

Mastina, now confitown debunked it.

It’s honestly not for a lack of trying but it’s extremely difficult to be able to do that when you keep posting that MMR had a gulity on us when I know that to be impossible. How would you feel if you were me, knowing that flipped scum not only claimed a guilty on you that you know to be bs but another player keeps posting that like it’s some kind of fact when you know it’s not? I think you’d be legit upset too, wouldn’t you?

[Past Present Future]

I actually think Nancy is clearly explaining her thought process on Ydrasse? I'm not sure what isn't clear to you DDS

Which, we're certain that they aren't aligned because PPF can't be Lunar. So regardless of PPF's alignment its an earnest thought process imo. Unless you think they are trying to mask how the scum PT works, since scum!PPF would know.

I think that T-Bone’s likely town for this.

[Past Present Future]

I’m seriously wondering how Prof hasn’t been hammered yet. He has clearly given up, so obviously there’s not going to be a 1v1 with T-Bone. Prof is confiscum now.

So now I just need to figure out who the last Solar is.

[Past Present Future]

@T-Bone can you please help me find that Mastina post you quoted? because I believe there’s three of them discussing how the Yume interaction debunks it?

I’m just so frustrated rn because I know it isn’t me but don’t know how to prove it? :/

[T-Bone]

Also explain to me why I kill Meuh here and why last night? Can you do that? She already checked me the night Math died and there’s no way Math wouldn’t be dead noon 1 if Titus were scum here.

We 100% knew Math was deathtunnelled on us and would likely vig us, so you’re going to argue I suppose that me and Titus are complete fucking idiots and were totally okay with that?

I'll be honest, I don't think there's a lot of utility for scum!PPF to kill Mueh. Meuh already outted their attunement, there is nothing else to fear from that perspective. I don't think Meuh thought PPF was scum. But I also don't know if Nancy is the type of scum player to prioritize keeping people who don't scumread her alive or not. Maybe she prioritizes killing PRs. That would also answer for the Math kill. (Plus that we wanted Math to shoot her slot)

Unless someone can recall meuh hinting at another part of their ability? I could see a situation where scum!PPF fears a secondary effect.

[T-Bone]

@T-Bone can you please help me find that Mastina post you quoted? because I believe there’s three of them discussing how the Yume interaction debunks it?

I’m just so frustrated rn because I know it isn’t me but don’t know how to prove it? :/

I'll look for it, but one Mastina post isn't going to convince anyone...though I concede it'll be easier to parse knowing her alignment now.

[Dingle Dangle Scarecrow]

Meuh needed to die (or otherwise be tampered with) to avoid anyone else from being cleared as Solar

[T-Bone]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.

Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.


Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.

This one, Nancy?

[T-Bone]

Meuh needed to die (or otherwise be tampered with) to avoid anyone else from being cleared as Solar

Good point I forgot about that

[T-Bone]

Either way I think we're not getting anything out of Prof, time to flip. We can deal with whether PPF is scum or not tomorrow.

[Past Present Future]

Meuh needed to die (or otherwise be tampered with) to avoid anyone else from being cleared as Solar

Doesn’t explain why Math didn’t die noon 1. Titus knew 100% he would most likely vig us and we know he almost did. Had both of these things: Meuh calling unwnd sun attuned and him pissing off Math hadn’t happened, 100% we would have been dead.

[Past Present Future]

Either way I think we're not getting anything out of Prof, time to flip. We can deal with whether PPF is scum or not tomorrow.

+1

No way is Prof town who’s ghosting the thread. Town!Prof would probably be doing exactly what T-Bone said he would. You literally couldn’t shut him up in LOST or keep him from spamming the thread every chance he got.

[Past Present Future]

Meuh needed to die (or otherwise be tampered with) to avoid anyone else from being cleared as Solar

Doesn’t explain why Math didn’t die noon 1. Titus knew 100% he would most likely vig us and we know he almost did. Had both of these things: Meuh calling unwnd sun attuned and him pissing off Math hadn’t happened, 100% we would have been dead.

Also how does Meuh being the nk even point to me?

[MegAzumarill]

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[MegAzumarill]

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