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Post Post #500 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:29 am

Post by Rhinox »

volkan wrote:What possible protown reason could you have for wanting to rush the lynch of somebody who hasn't even had an opportunity to challenge the case against them?
ummm... unless some weird disruption of the space-time continuoum occured, your lynch has been considered for the better part of about 10 pages. There's nothing rushed about that. You even commented once on sche's case previously. I won't sympathize with you for taking, what, almost 2 weeks now to get caught up on the thread. I know its big, but thats more than enough time. I don't recall anyone asking for a PbPa (which would take longer), so making a PbPa is also no excuse for not actually reading the thread through once before going back for the PbPa. (for the record, with every new game I play, the more I start to think a PbPa doesn't serve much of a purpose).
volkan wrote:It would hardly be surprising to learn that townies sometimes lie to avoid having to post
So, you've basically now soft-claimed townie, and you're explaining bg's actions as lying to avoid posting... I don't think any townie - even a poor playing inexperienced one - would want to or have to lie to avoid posting. If she's townie, she was probably telling the truth, because if she didn't want to post (as townie), that implies she didn't really care, and wouldn't have bothered to try to avoid her lynch by lying to explain her lurking.

VOTE COUNT:

vollkan - 5: orangepenguin, Riceballtail, mrfixij, bionicchop2, Xtoxm
mrfixij - 2: G-Force, Rhinox
bionicchop2 - 2: PyroDwarf, Erratus Apathos
orangepenguin - 1: vollkan
G-Force - 1: curiouskarmadog

Not voting: Scheherazade

7 votes for a lynch.
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Post Post #501 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:10 am

Post by vollkan »

Rhinox wrote: ummm... unless some weird disruption of the space-time continuoum occured, your lynch has been considered for the better part of about 10 pages. There's nothing rushed about that. You even commented once on sche's case previously. I won't sympathize with you for taking, what, almost 2 weeks now to get caught up on the thread. I know its big, but thats more than enough time. I don't recall anyone asking for a PbPa (which would take longer), so making a PbPa is also no excuse for not actually reading the thread through once before going back for the PbPa. (for the record, with every new game I play, the more I start to think a PbPa doesn't serve much of a purpose).
Most of that 10 pages was on the meta case. Shez's case was one I couldn't really rebut unless I had reread. And I accept that I took way longer than others - but that's because of my pbp. I hold myself to the same standards of transparency as other people - which requires that I give full and frank disclosure of my opinion on the game.
Rhinox wrote: So, you've basically now soft-claimed townie, and you're explaining bg's actions as lying to avoid posting... I don't think any townie - even a poor playing inexperienced one - would want to or have to lie to avoid posting.
1) Nothing I have said should be taken as soft-claiming

2) I haven't based my defence on BG lying as town. I've looked at two possibiltiies: defence being genuine and defence not being genuine. The possibility of genuineness detracts from the strength of the case substantially in and of itself, and this is only compounded by the fact that even town BG could expectedly lie. It's worth having a look at MD right now - because the ethics of this very issue (lying regarding external circumstances) is being discussed. I cannot at all see why you are so dismissive of the prospect of town lying to avoid posting. If a player doesn't feel like posting, odds are they won't post. I am sure we have all been in the position of knowing that there is pressure on us to post something, but not being able to muster the effort needed to post. In such circumstances, in order to avoid the suspicion which might accrue from not posting, it's hardly surprising that town might lie. Whatever might be said for the questionable ethics of this, the possiiblity of it being unethical doesn't make it scummy. I see no reason why a townie would have any motivation to be honest about their lurking if they could cover it with an irrefutable lie. The only reason they might not is if they calculated that any lie would be subject to skepticism - but that same logic is just as likely to be used by scum.

Rhinox wrote: If she's townie, she was probably telling the truth, because if she didn't want to post (as townie), that implies she didn't really care, and wouldn't have bothered to try to avoid her lynch by lying to explain her lurking.
Your reasoning here attempts to draw an equivalence between not wanting to post and not wanting to play at all. BG is always lazy, but the very fact she has played a cluster of games reflects, bizarrely, that she likes being in games but doesn't like actually posting.
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Post Post #502 (ISO) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:45 am

Post by Erratus Apathos »

bionicchop2 wrote:
Erratus Apathos wrote: Of course I saw you argue the meta, as you may recall I even agreed with you before it was shown that BG acts similarly as town. I assume you have reason to believe that can't be the case in this game, if so what is it?
I disagree that it has been proven she acts similarly as town. Her actions of the appeal to emotion and fiery exit IMO match the example she set as scum. That is what I was talking about when I mentioned her previous scummy actions this game.
Erratus Apathos wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:Also EA, I disagree with your argument against me and reason for voting.
Seeing as how I just dropped a vote with no explanation, how do you know what my argument against you and reason for voting are?
1. The initial post was sarcasm. You gave no explanation, so obviously I could not debate it.

2. No matter what your reason is, I will obviously disagree with it since I know you are wrong.

3. When I noticed your self quote on the page, I realized I had not responded to a question directly, so I later did become aware of why your vote was put on me (or at least I assumed that was the reason).
Makes sense. And yeah, that was the reason I voted you.

Unvote


Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the BG meta argument. At this point it feels like both sides are only arguing because neither wants to be the first to stop beating the dead horse. And not just ordinary dead horse beating, but dead horse beating that's so long-winded that Strom Thurmond would have taken notes. I honestly
dread
reading this game in its current state.
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Post Post #503 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:42 am

Post by Rhinox »

volkan wrote:I cannot at all see why you are so dismissive of the prospect of town lying to avoid posting. If a player doesn't feel like posting, odds are they won't post. I am sure we have all been in the position of knowing that there is pressure on us to post something, but not being able to muster the effort needed to post. In such circumstances, in order to avoid the suspicion which might accrue from not posting, it's hardly surprising that town might lie. Whatever might be said for the questionable ethics of this, the possiiblity of it being unethical doesn't make it scummy. I see no reason why a townie would have any motivation to be honest about their lurking if they could cover it with an irrefutable lie.
The reason I feel this is important is because you stated this:
It would hardly be surprising to learn that townies sometimes lie to avoid having to post
, which in context is an implication that bg is a townie, didn't want to post, so lied to avoid having to. First thing is your use of 'townie' as opposed to 'town player' - there is a big difference in this situation. Townies have nothing to do but post. That is the only way to play the game. Not wanting to post = not wanting to play, when you're a townie.

So, knowing that bg didn't want to post, which equivalates to not wanting to play if bg is townie, why would bg bother to start posting to lie to cover up her lurking as soon as she is questioned? That is what makes me believe that if bg is townie, she was probably telling the truth about her rl issues.

Now, nothing about bg telling the truth is scummy in and of itself. However, in your defense, you chose to argue that bg was probably lying because it seems like it would fit her meta better, solidifying your argument. You also say it doesn't suprise you that a townie would lie to avoid posting, and your tone implies that it is such a common thing that we should just accept that it happens, and there is nothing scummy about a townie lying to avoid posting (just that its anti-town). I disagree with that view, for reasons I've stated: townies don't have to lie to avoid posting because townies have no reason to avoid posting, and a townie who doesn't want to post is a townie who doesn't want to play, and probably would take the effort to formulate a lie to save herself and remain in the game. Further more, a townie lying goes directly against their win condition. So a claimed townie who is found to be lying in order to lurk is pretty much a lynchable offense as far as I'm concerned.

So, scum goons also play like townies, and often claim townie. Scum goons might try to lurk as a strategy, and might try to lie about rl events in order to avoid their own lynch, because they're actually playing the game. How do you tell the difference between a scum using this strategy and a townie who's not dedicated and a liar? You don't, but I believe I would still take the chance that we've found scum, knowing that townies have no reason to lie, and if you accidently lynch a lying townie, its not the worst loss the town could suffer.

*break for a breather*....

...

*moving on...*

Then you say we should not interpret your comment about not being suprised to find that townies lie as a soft claim... ok, so ignore everything above for now. But this raises another separate issue. Why argue in hypotheticals? This is a problem and seems scummy to me because you're making hypothetical points that we're meant to read and use as evidence to strengthen your defense, but in reality the hypothetical points don't really apply to you or your role and i assume were jsut put in for flair. Right now, I have no choice but to assume that everything you said relating to townies lying is just hypothetical filler to make you seem innocent, and that is scummy to me.

But I'm not going to vote for you right now nor demand your claim for 1 final subtle reason:

I realize some players use "townie" and "pro-town player" interchangeably as meaning the same thing. If your use of townie was meant as a general descriptive word for town players, then ignore everything above this paragraph (for now). I do see how some town roles would want to lurk a little as a strategy and it might be acceptable to lie about it to avoid their own lynch if their role is powerful enough. Just please be more careful of your use of "townie" in the future, because calling somebody "townie" means something completely different than calling someone "pro-town".
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Post Post #504 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:51 am

Post by vollkan »

Rhinox wrote: I realize some players use "townie" and "pro-town player" interchangeably as meaning the same thing. If your use of townie was meant as a general descriptive word for town players, then ignore everything above this paragraph (for now). I do see how some town roles would want to lurk a little as a strategy and it might be acceptable to lie about it to avoid their own lynch if their role is powerful enough. Just please be more careful of your use of "townie" in the future, because calling somebody "townie" means something completely different than calling someone "pro-town".
:lol: I spent ages typing out an answer to your above points, only to read this.

I was using "townie" interchangably with "pro-town player". That is why I said "nothing I have said should be taken as a soft claim" - maybe you misunderstood this, but I was trying to say that I wasn't using the word "townie" in any role-specific sense.

FWIW, I suggest that people avoid this ambiguity by referring to "townies" in the role sense as "vanillas". Of course, doing so doesn't avoid this sort of confusion arising.
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Post Post #505 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:48 am

Post by Xtoxm »

I've always referred to PTP's as townie's and VT's as vanilla's.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
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Post Post #506 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:41 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

I believe this day 1 is reaching a point of diminishing returns.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #507 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:08 pm

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bionicchop2 wrote:I believe this day 1 is reaching a point of diminishing returns.
Diminishing returns: maybe. Loss of momentum: definitely. I'm curious as to why you felt it was necessary to bring this up though. It's as if you're advocating a faster end to D1.
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Post Post #508 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:16 pm

Post by Scheherazade »

Scheherazade wrote:@bionicchop2: The vollkan/babygirl86 lynch has stalled. I hope you take it as a compliment when I say that so far you seem to prefer, and advocate, a more aggressive and dynamic style than one would guess from your present fixation on vollkan.

With the goal of picking the game up again, I ask you:

Do you feel that you have anything new to bring to the vollkan case? If not, what other avenues are you interested in exploring? We have more than one mafia player, so I suspect you have more suspects than vollkan.
PyroDwarf wrote:Well, when RBT came up as mason, I lost my highest suspicion. Then OP flipped vig. Now, I'm really not sure. I'm thinking Mrfixij or CKD would be worth a look, i could even go back to EA, who I had begun to question earlier.
What does a Voll lynch tell us? If he flips scum, good for us, and scum loses a player that seems very well spoken.
If he is town, who does it look bad on? BC, sche? Some one quietley putting a vote on him?
My vote on BC was like I said because of his drawn out meta deal. G-force brings up a good point of the convinced townie.
I agree with xtoxm, vol should claim, I believe he is at l-2 again.
@bionichop2 and mrfixij: Any comments, responses, concerns, etc.? You two seem to be around.
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Post Post #509 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:57 pm

Post by mrfixij »

I'm trying to piece together in my head some kind of connection between Vollkan and Pyro. Pyro is still very scummy to me, and the way Voll slipped out of a for-sure claim situation was absurd. I'm stuck in a WIFOM as to why and how he did so. As it is, I'm not finding what I'm looking for yet involving pyro, but I think Vollkan's comment on "out of context" quotes that I used against pyro in Voll's PBPA are a start for Vollkan's side of the story, and pyro's complete refusal to consider BG/vollkan as scum explains his side.

Of course, this is still weak. I'm going back and trying to find more. I'm getting a strong vibe about both though.
Also answer to 'e, it, scumbag, 'ey you!, and his royal towniness.
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Post Post #510 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:06 pm

Post by vollkan »

I've already explained my decision not to claim. I am of the view that claiming is basically an "any last words" sort of thing. Seeing as I hadn't even gotten to rebutting the case against me, it struck me as, well, absurd to think that I should claim in such a situation. I've seen enough premature claims in my time on this site to know there is nothing wrong with holding back.

Also, it was actually Bio who brought up the whole point about the quotes being out of context. And, in any event, I hardly see why pointing out something like that should be at all problematic.
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Post Post #511 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:14 pm

Post by mrfixij »

vollkan wrote:I've already explained my decision not to claim. I am of the view that claiming is basically an "any last words" sort of thing. Seeing as I hadn't even gotten to rebutting the case against me, it struck me as, well, absurd to think that I should claim in such a situation. I've seen enough premature claims in my time on this site to know there is nothing wrong with holding back.

Also, it was actually Bio who brought up the whole point about the quotes being out of context. And, in any event, I hardly see why pointing out something like that should be at all problematic.
At this point, I'm looking for material. If I get a case, I'll present it. As it is, I've been silent these past few days because I haven't been able to find it, and when I noticed something funny, I pointed it out (re: Biochop). Then Schez asked for my opinions, and I explained what I've been thinking so far.

I figure the odds of ONE of you two being scum are pretty good. After reading the mason claim post-replacement, Pyro struck me as funny as I've already explained. Being that you were in the spotlight and pyro refused to take action on you made me more suspicious of him, and curious as to a pairing, or a forced pairing. As it is, it looks like a forced/framed pairing, under the assumption that pyro is scum, but I want to be sure before I let you off the hook vollkan.
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Post Post #512 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:41 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Scheherazade wrote: Do you feel that you have anything new to bring to the vollkan case?
No.
Scheherazade wrote: If not, what other avenues are you interested in exploring? We have more than one mafia player, so I suspect you have more suspects than vollkan.
Currently I am not interested in pursuing any other avenues. I will continue to look for scum, but my vote is on my top suspect. I feel he is the best lynch for the day and the reveal on his affiliation will be very informative.

Scheherazade wrote:
@bionichop2 and mrfixij: Any comments, responses, concerns, etc.? You two seem to be around.
I am not sure what this last question is referring to.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #513 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:49 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

mrfixij wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:I believe this day 1 is reaching a point of diminishing returns.
Diminishing returns: maybe. Loss of momentum: definitely. I'm curious as to why you felt it was necessary to bring this up though. It's as if you're advocating a faster end to D1.
Yes, that is exactly where my mind is right now. Note this is not the same as requesting a
fast
day 1. I just feel it has gone beyond the point of productivity. We already have outed 3 town role claims. If somebody brings up some new points that generate good discussion, then that is all fine and dandy. Right now I feel we need more information and the best source for that information is a productive lynch.

D1s that last 4+ weeks give me a case of the blahs and I consider myself a very active player. If it turns me slightly apathetic, I can imagine what it does to less talkative players.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #514 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:09 pm

Post by mrfixij »

Oh wow, i didn't even realize how long this had been going on for before I replaced in. If Vollkan isn't our man, I advocate a pyro lynch as well.
Also answer to 'e, it, scumbag, 'ey you!, and his royal towniness.
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Post Post #515 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:35 pm

Post by vollkan »

mrfixij wrote:
vollkan wrote:I've already explained my decision not to claim. I am of the view that claiming is basically an "any last words" sort of thing. Seeing as I hadn't even gotten to rebutting the case against me, it struck me as, well, absurd to think that I should claim in such a situation. I've seen enough premature claims in my time on this site to know there is nothing wrong with holding back.

Also, it was actually Bio who brought up the whole point about the quotes being out of context. And, in any event, I hardly see why pointing out something like that should be at all problematic.
At this point, I'm looking for material. If I get a case, I'll present it. As it is, I've been silent these past few days because I haven't been able to find it, and when I noticed something funny, I pointed it out (re: Biochop). Then Schez asked for my opinions, and I explained what I've been thinking so far.

I figure the odds of ONE of you two being scum are pretty good. After reading the mason claim post-replacement, Pyro struck me as funny as I've already explained. Being that you were in the spotlight and pyro refused to take action on you made me more suspicious of him, and curious as to a pairing, or a forced pairing. As it is, it looks like a forced/framed pairing, under the assumption that pyro is scum, but I want to be sure before I let you off the hook vollkan.
What do you mean by a "forced/framed pairing"?
bionicchop2 wrote:
Scheherazade wrote: Do you feel that you have anything new to bring to the vollkan case?
No.
Scheherazade wrote: If not, what other avenues are you interested in exploring? We have more than one mafia player, so I suspect you have more suspects than vollkan.
Currently I am not interested in pursuing any other avenues. I will continue to look for scum, but my vote is on my top suspect. I feel he is the best lynch for the day and the reveal on his affiliation will be very informative.
Scheherazade wrote:
@bionichop2 and mrfixij: Any comments, responses, concerns, etc.? You two seem to be around.
I am not sure what this last question is referring to.
It's completely illegitimate that you think you can rely on the fact that you voted me pages back. Your vote must be justified at each point in time.

As of now, I have destroyed the meta case, and I think my rebuttal of Shez's newest case has held up. You have offered absolutely
nothing
to justify continuing to have suspicion on me.

The sense I am getting here is that nothing I can say or do could possibly avert the suspicion that you have of me. That's very important because it shows that the suspicions you have simply aren't based on anything. As of this point in time, the case against me is based on nothing other than the fact, in essence, that people didn't like BG's play. I think it's atrocious too, but it just wasn't scummy.

Also, it's very telling that now you have started referring to the "information" value of my lynch. We don't have the threat of a deadline and we have no dearth of things to discuss. Information value is, as always, only a secondary factor. The primary point is lynching the person whom there are the most objective reasons to be scum. The mere fact that there has been so much discussion revolving around me doesn't at all justify my lynch..
ixfij wrote: Oh wow, i didn't even realize how long this had been going on for before I replaced in. If Vollkan isn't our man, I advocate a pyro lynch as well.
Rather than just treating me as the default candidate, how about actually justifying why I should be the lynch?
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Post Post #516 (ISO) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:00 pm

Post by Scheherazade »

vollkan wrote: Also, it's very telling that now you have started referring to the "information" value of my lynch.
We don't have the threat of a deadline and we have no dearth of things to discuss.
Information value is, as always, only a secondary factor. The primary point is lynching the person whom there are the most objective reasons to be scum.
1) Things such as what? Did you have anything specific in mind when you made that statement?

2) You don't think that your lynch might help us to lynch bionicchop2? You haven't said it in so many words, but the tone of your posts, especially when directed against bionicchop2 seem to go beyond mere resentment of his attitude and dogged pursuit of you. Do you think that bionicchop2 is unlikely to be scum? I notice how high his score is by your system--the highest score of any player not claiming mason. If your lynch could expose bionicchop2, do you think it's valid? Isn't a one to one exchange a gain for the town? Or is it not likely to be one to one in your eyes?

3) The two players with the highest scum score on your list have claimed mason. What exactly do you think of that claim, if you don't mind me asking?

4) Now that you've completed your read-through, we can see who attracted the most of your attention. However, I don't think that's really a case. Do you intend to do more to scum-hunt? If so, what? And what have you waited for thus far?

5) Why do you often spell mrfixij as ixfij? It doesn't bother me much, but it's curious.

@bionicchop2:

I didn't mean to be confusing. I was curious if you had any sort of reaction to PyroDwarf's post, which I quoted. You've stated strong suspicion of three players in this game. One claimed and was complimented by you on strong posting. One seems to have halted the forward momentum on his case. What do you think of the last one?

And, because I just now realise that I've called for an opinion without laying one down:

@PyroDwarf:
PyroDwarf wrote:Well, when RBT came up as mason, I lost my highest suspicion. Then OP flipped vig. Now, I'm really not sure. I'm thinking Mrfixij or CKD would be worth a look, i could even go back to EA, who I had begun to question earlier.
What does a Voll lynch tell us? If he flips scum, good for us, and scum loses a player that seems very well spoken.
If he is town, who does it look bad on? BC, sche? Some one quietley putting a vote on him?
My vote on BC was like I said because of his drawn out meta deal. G-force brings up a good point of the convinced townie.
I agree with xtoxm, vol should claim, I believe he is at l-2 again.
I'd like you to follow up. What has looking at mrfixij or curiouskarmadog revealed? What questions do you still have for ErratusApathos? Have his recent posts changed your mind about him at all? I'm looking at his reaction to bionicchop2, which I personally think looks town.

I do think that a vollkan lynch will cast deserved suspicion on those voting for him. Your rhetorical question indicates that you think otherwise. What about vollkan flipping town would discourage you from looking harder at me, bionicchop2 and those who push for a vollkan lynch?

You mention G-force bringing up a good point with respect to bionicchop2. Is that the reason why you think a vollkan lynch will give us no information? If you believe that much in the possibility that bionicchop2 could simply be a zealous townie, why is your vote still on him? Are there other reasons why you suspect him? Do you not believe in G-force's suggestion that much? If not, please readdress the questions about the info from vollkan's lynch.
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Post Post #517 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:14 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

see sig (posting in 3 games)
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #518 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:51 am

Post by vollkan »

Schez wrote: 1) Things such as what? Did you have anything specific in mind when you made that statement?
I wasn't thinking of anything specifically, but what I did mean was that my reread found a number of things which were scummy and which discussion could take place on. Obviously, the mason claims through a spanner in much of that, but what I guess I am trying to say is the idea, implicit in some of the recent posts, that the time has come for a compromise lynch is invalid.
Schez wrote: 2) You don't think that your lynch might help us to lynch bionicchop2? You haven't said it in so many words, but the tone of your posts, especially when directed against bionicchop2 seem to go beyond mere resentment of his attitude and dogged pursuit of you. Do you think that bionicchop2 is unlikely to be scum? I notice how high his score is by your system--the highest score of any player not claiming mason. If your lynch could expose bionicchop2, do you think it's valid? Isn't a one to one exchange a gain for the town? Or is it not likely to be one to one in your eyes?
Well, first off, my PBPA speaks for itself in that, next to the masons, I find bio scummiest (which means Bio would be my pick for lynchee, seeing as I am prepared to accept the claims). There are a number of points where I criticise Bio in my read, my rebuttal against some of his arguments have also shown my issues with him, and his recent posts have had this implicit idea that, somehow, I am today's default lynch. In essence, more than anybody else, the manner of his attack is less directed towards legitimate questioning and argument and more directed towards securing my lynch. His argument has shifted from BG's meta, to my being shifty, to your case on BG, and now to this weird sort of "shrugging of the shoulders" compromise/information lynch, interspersed with ad hominem attacks on me being a "skilled debater" and "grandiose" and so on. I think the term is "tunneling".

In pre-emption, this is not OMGUS - which is where you attack somebody
because
they are attacking you. Were I OMGUSing, I would be taking issue with far more people than just Bio. My problem with Bio is the way he has attacked me.

Now, it's true that my lynch will help advance the lynch of Bionic. But a genuine debate about the problems in Bio's (and other's) attitudes towards my lynch doesn't require my death to occur. In the scenario that I am lynched, what causes Bio to be singled out from others? Sure, my arguments against him will obviously play a role - but what singles him out will have to be scummy actions on his part, a factor which is operative independent of my own alignment.

Do I think Bio is obviously scum? Definitely not. There's a pride factor, and a generic emotional factor ("gut") which can operate to give townies tunnel-vision. What I am trying to say here is that there is a legitimate debate to be had right now about Bio, and any other attacks on me (along with anything else). The solution is not simply to make the gross assumption that either Bio or I are scum and lynch accordingly.
Shez wrote: 3) The two players with the highest scum score on your list have claimed mason. What exactly do you think of that claim, if you don't mind me asking?
Good question. The scores I give are reflective of "How scummy is this person's conduct?" not "What are the chances of this person being scum?" The reason for that is partly because the only way discrepancies usually arise is because of claims, which I can factor in my head - I don't need to have a numerical record thereof. The other reason is meta-based: to make me see whether what I identify as scummy actually is on review by me (that is to say, it's meta for my own research benefit in the future)
Shez wrote: 4) Now that you've completed your read-through, we can see who attracted the most of your attention. However, I don't think that's really a case. Do you intend to do more to scum-hunt? If so, what? And what have you waited for thus far?
My hope was that each person would go through the PBP and challenge me on specific points, with debate ensuing. I have the title "The Interrogator" for a reason - that I rely on questioning and arguing as my principal means of scumhunting. Usually, the way I do things when I don't replace is to compile a PBPA on each player and then debate my findings - with the way people conduct themselves in the debate further influencing my suspicions. I've been doing the same sort of thing here from the beginning. I don't see a black-and-white distinction between "defending" and "attacking" because, in the course of defending, the scummy nature of certain attacks is revealed (bio most obviously as an example). What I would like at this stage is for people to end their self-fulfilling prophecies of the day having reached its standstill and to have a look at what I've put forward (not restricted to Bio either).
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Post Post #519 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:53 am

Post by Rhinox »

Vol: i'm not a fan of your numerical list. For one, its easy for you to use it as a manipulation tool if you're scum. Especially on such a large scale like a 0-100 thing, and you arbitrarily assigning point values to certain scummy actions, it wouldn't be too dificult for you to shape the way we would think about players just by making small numerical changes. Look how much the 9/10 of a cent changed the perception of gasoline prices.

And even if you're town, as I've argued early on in the thread, I'm not a big fan of publishing lists with your thoughts on every player in the game, especially on D1. I'm sure you read my posts during your readthrough, so I'll spare the group by not posting THAT wall again. The reason I didn't call you out on it is b/c players in this game have played with you before and have seen your list in action before and didn't think your list was too big of a deal.

I also want to say that i dislike the thinking that vol's mislynch could help us lynch bio, or visa versa this early in the game. For all we know, its just as likely that they're both town or they're both scum, as it is that they're 1 of each. yes, Vol showing up town would make bio the opportunistic D2 target, but planning bio's lynch for tomorrow by first making a mislynch on vol today seems incredibly scummy to me...
sche wrote:You don't think that your lynch might help us to lynch bionicchop2? You haven't said it in so many words, but the tone of your posts, especially when directed against bionicchop2 seem to go beyond mere resentment of his attitude and dogged pursuit of you. Do you think that bionicchop2 is unlikely to be scum? I notice how high his score is by your system--the highest score of any player not claiming mason. If your lynch could expose bionicchop2, do you think it's valid? Isn't a one to one exchange a gain for the town? Or is it not likely to be one to one in your eyes?
Sche, it seems what you're doing here is trying to get vol to accept his default lynch role on grounds that his mislynch will lead to us being able to lynch bio tomorrow. Your statement stems from the assumption that one of either bio or vol are scum. Not only is that statement not necessarily true, you could be shaping the way for 2 mislynches, which would put us either in or dangerously close to LyLo.

this thinking bothers me enough to
unvote, vote: sche
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Post Post #520 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:58 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Posts in this thread are starting to get too long. I find this usually causes most of the players to become disinterested. I haven't read the latest batch, i'm not looking forward to trying it, infact it's unlikely that I will.

I think we should just lynch Volkan.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
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Post Post #521 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 am

Post by vollkan »

Rhinox wrote: Vol: i'm not a fan of your numerical list. For one, its easy for you to use it as a manipulation tool if you're scum. Especially on such a large scale like a 0-100 thing, and you arbitrarily assigning point values to certain scummy actions, it wouldn't be too dificult for you to shape the way we would think about players just by making small numerical changes. Look how much the 9/10 of a cent changed the perception of gasoline prices.
Fair point.

I've used the system as town and as scum, and I admit that it is open to manipulation when I am scum. Let me stress to everybody that the numbers just reflect my own opinion on the relative strength of things. I try to justify myself as much as possible in the PBP (within reasonable limits given the sheer effort of doing the PBPA), and I'd hope that the reasons for assigning values and why I assign particular values (ie. a 1, 2 or 3, etc.) are apparent. If not, ask me. It's no more capable of scummy manipulation than any other system.
Rhinox wrote: And even if you're town, as I've argued early on in the thread, I'm not a big fan of publishing lists with your thoughts on every player in the game, especially on D1. I'm sure you read my posts during your readthrough, so I'll spare the group by not posting THAT wall again. The reason I didn't call you out on it is b/c players in this game have played with you before and have seen your list in action before and didn't think your list was too big of a deal.
I do lists/replacement PBPs in pretty much every game I am in. I'm happy to debate this point if you think it's necessary, but my meta for it makes it a nulltell for me.
Rhinox wrote: I also want to say that i dislike the thinking that vol's mislynch could help us lynch bio, or visa versa this early in the game. For all we know, its just as likely that they're both town or they're both scum, as it is that they're 1 of each. yes, Vol showing up town would make bio the opportunistic D2 target, but planning bio's lynch for tomorrow by first making a mislynch on vol today seems incredibly scummy to me...
I was trying to make this as part of my argument in my previous post. There's a debate which needs to be had on bio, and which doesn't require either of us to be lynched. As I said, I don't think Bio is necessarily scum, and I don't like the idea that a chain should be set up whereby a lynch is predicated on a set-up of future lynches.
Xtoxm wrote: Posts in this thread are starting to get too long. I find this usually causes most of the players to become disinterested. I haven't read the latest batch, i'm not looking forward to trying it, infact it's unlikely that I will.

I think we should just lynch Volkan.
I could rant and rave right now about how absolutely stupid this is. On the other hand, X, you've proved my point about the whole idea of a default lynch and the problems with the wagon on me better than I could ever have.

X is, quite simply, resigned to my lynch. He has advanced no arguments and no rebuttal. He's now even admitted to ignoring the thread. The fact that he is a claimed mason only makes this more obscence, because it legitimises others making the stupid play that X is engaging in.
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Post Post #522 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:02 am

Post by Scheherazade »

Rhinox wrote:Sche, it seems what you're doing here is trying to get vol to accept his default lynch role on grounds that his mislynch will lead to us being able to lynch bio tomorrow. Your statement stems from the assumption that one of either bio or vol are scum. Not only is that statement not necessarily true, you could be shaping the way for 2 mislynches, which would put us either in or dangerously close to LyLo.

this thinking bothers me enough to
unvote, vote: sche
That's a reasonable enough vote, though the major point was to probe vollkan's precise level of suspicion of bionicchop2. Frankly, I never expected vollkan to accept the lynch merely because I asked him questions. I asked the questions to figure out exactly why he wouldn't accept the lynch, which I assumed included doubts about bionicchop2's scumminess.

@vollkan: Thanks for your answers.

It's certainly fair to ask me to respond directly to your post by post analysis. I'll treat it as the potential case against every player, if I may.

And, sadly, you didn't answer my most burning question: what is ixfij?
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Post Post #523 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:24 am

Post by vollkan »

Shez wrote: It's certainly fair to ask me to respond directly to your post by post analysis. I'll treat it as the potential case against every player, if I may.
Okay, good. That should make proper use of it. And I have no problem with you treating as a potential case (obviously bearing in mind that the PBP is a very abbreviated sort of format).
Shez wrote: That's a reasonable enough vote, though the major point was to probe vollkan's precise level of suspicion of bionicchop2. Frankly, I never expected vollkan to accept the lynch merely because I asked him questions. I asked the questions to figure out exactly why he wouldn't accept the lynch, which I assumed included doubts about bionicchop2's scumminess.
Frankly, I figured as much. You didn't strike me as dopey enough to be seriously advocating a two-fer lynch, so I figured you were probably just trying to determine my attitude towards Bio more closely. Of course, I didn't want to pre-empt your defence against Rhinox in case you had actually slipped.
Shez wrote: And, sadly, you didn't answer my most burning question: what is ixfij?
Weird...I had it typed out.

Anyway, when I first typed out mrfixij's name I wrote "ixfij" as a typo. I then decided to continue using it, out of interest in seeing how long before somebody would pick up on it. I'll put it into the box of "it seemed like a good idea at the time" :P

(Of course, I am still going to call him ixfij because that's what I reflexively type now!)
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Post Post #524 (ISO) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:38 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

vollkan wrote: It's completely illegitimate that you think you can rely on the fact that you voted me pages back. Your vote must be justified at each point in time.
I completely disagree with this. If I still believe in my decision, I don't have to make up some new reason at each point in time just to appease people. Expecting that would lead to people forcing reasons into the game just to fit their opinion. I am not going to nit pick every point you make just to try and make myself look town.
vollkan wrote: As of now, I have destroyed the meta case, and I think my rebuttal of Shez's newest case has held up. You have offered absolutely
nothing
to justify continuing to have suspicion on me.
Not all of us are as convinced as you are by your own arguments. I just choose not to argue in circles with you.
vollkan wrote: The sense I am getting here is that nothing I can say or do could possibly avert the suspicion that you have of me.
At this point, I would agree. Things do change, but I don't think any direct action of you discussing something with me is going to convince me.
vollkan wrote: That's very important because it shows that the suspicions you have simply aren't based on anything.
I would like to understand this jump in logic. Just because you feel you have defended something to your satisfaction does not mean the original points do not exist and others no longer believe in them.
vollkan wrote: As of this point in time, the case against me is based on nothing other than the fact, in essence, that people didn't like BG's play. I think it's atrocious too, but it just wasn't scummy.
I have also shown that I disliked your defenses and felt you changed arguments and twisted words. We both have our own opinion on that though. I also see a PbPa by you which has 3 claimed town roles listed near the top and I see myself there. Since I know my affiliation and I am comfortable with the claimed roles at this time (masons first and vig 2nd because of the outside chance he could be SK) it means you are either a townie off your game or you are scum on your game.
vollkan wrote: Also, it's very telling that now you have started referring to the "information" value of my lynch. We don't have the threat of a deadline and we have no dearth of things to discuss. Information value is, as always, only a secondary factor. The primary point is lynching the person whom there are the most objective reasons to be scum. The mere fact that there has been so much discussion revolving around me doesn't at all justify my lynch..
I see you as most likely to be scum. I could start making assumptions based on that and analyze the style of people defending you and people questioning you, but that would be a worthless exercise without confirmation of your alignment. I have a secondary suspect in pyro, but my preference is to lynch my top suspect.
The above written statement is pro-town.

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