Bio wrote: Vollkan wrote: It's completely illegitimate that you think you can rely on the fact that you voted me pages back. Your vote must be justified at each point in time.
I completely disagree with this. If I still believe in my decision, I don't have to make up some new reason at each point in time just to appease people. Expecting that would lead to people forcing reasons into the game just to fit their opinion. I am not going to nit pick every point you make just to try and make myself look town.
I am not saying that you need to make a new case in every single post. What I am saying, though, is that "I voted for you on page X" does not inherently justify the continuance of that vote on page (X+Y). In the case of this game, I have made detailed responses to the case against me and have posted fresh content of my own, with some of my wagonners only meeting this with what is basically just a shrug of the shoulders. And it's not about making yourself "look town". It's about making the best lynch decision possible which, almost by definition, cannot occur unless you consider all relevant matters - of which my defences rank very highly in terms of importance.
In essence,
having voted is not a justification for continuing to vote.
That's just a sly way of advocating default lynching.
Bio wrote:
Not all of us are as convinced as you are by your own arguments. I just choose not to argue in circles with you.
This is pure bullshit. We argued over the meta case. You haven't argued with me on my subsequent defences or material. There's no issue of arguing in circles here. Again, you are just posting a justification for a resigned default lynch of me.
Bio wrote: Voll wrote:
The sense I am getting here is that nothing I can say or do could possibly avert the suspicion that you have of me.
At this point, I would agree. Things do change, but I don't think any direct action of you discussing something with me is going to convince me.
Okay, so we move to the next point:
Bio wrote: vollkan wrote:
That's very important because it shows that the suspicions you have simply aren't based on anything.
I would like to understand this jump in logic. Just because you feel you have defended something to your satisfaction does not mean the original points do not exist and others no longer believe in them.
Hmm, I would have hoped you would understand the logic.
Okay, in order for this game to be meaningful, cases need to be based on objective reasons. That is to say, things other than "I get a bad vibe from vollkan/BG". Thus far, this game has been fairly good in terms of objectivity - ie. you argued a meta case. The key difference between objective and subjective arguments is that the former are capable of being rebutted. Now, I cannot prove conclusively to the rest of you that BG was not, for instance, trying to lynch power roles. But I can rebut the argument by raising significant doubts about it - ie. by showing that BG most likely wasn't even aware of the claims. In this game, it is rare that complete refutations can occur, but townies should always be open to rethink their position in light of reasonable doubts.
Now, I don't deny that you (and others, of course) might still have good reasons for continuing to suspect me. But, you
need
to justify that continuance in light of my defences.
Bio wrote:
I have also shown that I disliked your defenses and felt you changed arguments and twisted words. We both have our own opinion on that though.
I've rebutted this already. It's not a question of "our own opinions". I missed a set of votes on BG which made some of what I had said wrong but, in a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, you blew it out of proportion because it had little to do with the point of my argument.
Bio wrote:
I also see a PbPa by you which has 3 claimed town roles listed near the top and I see myself there. Since I know my affiliation and I am comfortable with the claimed roles at this time (masons first and vig 2nd because of the outside chance he could be SK) it means you are either a townie off your game or you are scum on your game.
I know I am not scum (useless for the rest of you), but I freely admit my suspicions could be completely off. I'm open to discussion and debate on the points I've raised and I am open to having my mind changed.
Bio wrote:
I have no problem with your opinion the meta case is unreliable. My question to you would be - what is reliable? Any scum 'tell' is just an indicator of something scum do more often than town. It is still a percentage play. Your 'unwillingness to gamble' is a little unsettling. It gives the impression that nothing short of a cop investigation will convince you who is scum if you are not going to gamble on something which a player has done more often as scum than as town.
Also, I don't think anybody has said anything was definitive. Yes I am assertive in my belief, but I understand this is a game of mafia and nothing is concrete. I simply feel this is my best chance at catching scum on day 1. Nothing out there has convinced me somebody else is a more viable lynch.
This merits a (+2). You're playing the trick here of drawing an equivalence between the fact that we cannot ever know things for sure with a kind of "anything goes" attitude. See, Bio, the impression I am getting of you is that you think that having a suspicion at one point in time justifies you clinging to that rock unless you are absolutely convinced otehrwise. That's both scummy and obscenely anti-town - it avoids having to engage with any material post-vote. GF, in stark contrast, is playing properly: that is, with a willingness to change his view based on a reasonable doubt.
Bionic wrote:
Now people can say they think the case against him is whatever - and are welcome to their opinion. I believe in what I have said though. The only thing that will move my vote is seeing something I feel is more suspicious that moves somebody up to the top of my list. We have 5 players with 1 vote on them, so obviously there is no overwhelming case against any of them.
And we have 1 player with 5 votes on him who also has no overwhelming case against him
Seriously, this is just classic default lynching attitude. You "believe" in what you have said - without countering my rebuttal. And you dig your feet in by refusing to shift unless somebody rises above me.
Rhinox wrote:
I do agree the vol/bg discussion has run its course. all players seem now locked into their beliefs regardless of whats being said.
I don't think that's true at all. Bio, RBT and X stand out as the obstinates, but I think that others (eg. yourself, Shez and GF) have shown a continued willigness to adjust your thinking.
PyroDwarf wrote:time for me to
unvote
I agree with some of the others when they say we are reaching diminishing returns. Vol says he considers claiming as "any last words".
Vote: vollkan
I am assuming that scum has alreasdy slipped their vote on him, so that would mean bio, mrfixij or OP. Or i could be wrong, wich is equally as likley.
I agree with Xtoxm's post 520.
I don't know if vollkan flipping town will be a guaranteed Bio lynch, but that will probably be where a lot of people start looking. Bio has already said, he is just voting for his top suspect, what else should we do on day one, wait for some to slip up and claim scum?
Okay, to begin with you say that you haven't given a single reason to explain why you are voting me. Then again, the way this game is going, that doesn't seem to be a problem.
The "I am voting for my top suspect attitude" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more people say that the day has reached its end, the more likely it is that the day draws to a close. Shez has just promised to go through my PBP and I don't think we have pursued many avenues of inquiry. Again, this whole game seems to be collapsing in towards a default lynch.
Pyro wrote: I didn't like vol's repeated "i dont need to claim" attitude.
You're completely misrepresenting my posiiton. I've been over this so many times now. I never said "I don't need to claim". I see claiming as an "any last words" sort of thing. That avoids things like the premature claims we had here. I'd also love for you to explain what is actually scummy about the fact I didn't claim.
Anyway, I am now at L-1. Short of somebody else actually claiming scum, I cannot see Bio, Pyro, X or RBT budging from me. I see some glimmer of hope in Ixfij, and OP.
