Mini Normal 2288: Reposting Same Picture As Flavor Are Lame

[Enchant]

Official Vote Count 1.05

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Kowabungah

(2): redFF, Herta

Gamma Emerald

(2): Lazy Shirou, Brickwalll

Haschel Cedricson

(1): GamerGryff

Andante

(1): Kowahbunga

PenguinPower

(1): Haschel Cedricson

Brickwalll

(1): Gamma Emerald

Klick

(1): PenguinPower

GamerGryff

(0):

Not Voting

(4): geraintm, Taly, Andante, Klick

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-02-02 19:43:16).

Mod notes:

Hopefully no errors this time!

[Klick]

My take is that most of general scumhunting is not accurate enough to actually be useful in a game

Okay that's not entirely fair
More like it's overrated. When used correctly and applied in context and used with multiple general tells aligning to suggest a player is one alignment or another it can be useful
Most people don't do that though

[Andante]

Official Vote Count 1.05

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Kowabungah

(2): redFF, Herta

Gamma Emerald

(2): Lazy Shirou, Brickwalll

Haschel Cedricson

(1): GamerGryff

Andante

(1): Kowahbunga

PenguinPower

(1): Haschel Cedricson

Brickwalll

(1): Gamma Emerald

Klick

(1): PenguinPower

GamerGryff

(0):

Not Voting

(4): geraintm, Taly, Andante, Klick

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-02-02 19:43:16).

Mod notes:

Hopefully no errors this time!

How do we have no actual wagon right now and 7 wagons of basically 1-2 people... like, this game is being played backwards, normally RVS looks like this, then we chill on a wagon, but I've also seems a bunch of the like "who cares" attitude, like, hello if we all sit here going "ehhh who cares this game is pointless" obviously it won't end well for us, and Kow/gerain, the 2 of yall all "oh we're gonna lim a town!!!!" ok, why don't you try and like give thoughts, relying on this whole idea of "WE'LL HAVE INFORMATION TOMORROW" How certain are you of that? I was gs in a game of all mafia doctors (doctors look clear to a gs) I was the "bringer of information" that didn't help town at all. we're told this setup is complex, I'm not too certain what that means for a normal game, but I'm just about certain we don't have a bunch of cops/trackers, so I hate to break it to yall, but you're actually going to have to scumhunt/rely on reading people.

I'm getting annoyed by the lack of people actually doing stuff, and hearing the complaining about the game yall signed up for.

Lets bring this back VOTE: Kow

[Andante]

Penguin, I'd follow you, but I'm not really down to vote anyone actually doing something today, I thought about brick, at least Brick is trying, unless people start doing stuff, I'm voting in the ones complaining/giving no effort.

Shiirou calling me town over and over again, I am a little confused over there, like, I feel like I'm an easy read, so why does it have to be repeated over and over lol I laughed so hard at someone quoting all the times shirou called me town x10 times I'm scared it's a pocket attempt to stay on my good side, cause I've seen it so many times, but I'm still fine with Shirou living past today!

[Brickwalll]

Hello, I have read nothing that happened since the site went down for the upgrade and I also probably missed some stuff before that. Diving in now...

How deep are you diving? 36 hours later are you still catching up?

[Andante]

I see Gamma answered the above, should have read the full thread before posting. Will be back on this evening, rushing mafia posts is to no one’s benefits.

Yeah no you’re an outed liar.
VOTE: Brickwalll

ahhhhh I see, I might have been a tad unfair to Brick with this stuff, I can't really tell why yall started going at it though, ahhhh I don't know, like, I don't know how to read this back and forth stuff

[Andante]

Hello, I have read nothing that happened since the site went down for the upgrade and I also probably missed some stuff before that. Diving in now...

How deep are you diving? 36 hours later are you still catching up?

lol oh yeah this!
VOTE: Haschel
do something please

[Brickwalll]

Argh! Just realised my 2nd previous post I messed up, but I hope you can see what I wrote brickwall.

But you are doing exactly to me what you are complaining is being done to you. You've decided I am scummy fo some reason and all my actions - even ones that to me scream town - you are twisting to be scum

It isn't really the same thing though, is it? Andante literally posted saying 6 posts in she thinks I am scum, and then subsequently went through every post I made and made it align with her read.

In post 228 I said you were town leaning. My read changed when you posted 247. I am happy with my read for now and will reassess as the game continues.

But for now VOTE: Haschel, think we need something from this slot.

[Brickwalll]

I see Gamma answered the above, should have read the full thread before posting. Will be back on this evening, rushing mafia posts is to no one’s benefits.

Yeah no you’re an outed liar.
VOTE: Brickwalll

ahhhhh I see, I might have been a tad unfair to Brick with this stuff, I can't really tell why yall started going at it though, ahhhh I don't know, like, I don't know how to read this back and forth stuff

Well, to be honest this is kinda my point. Gamma seemed to take exception to something I said and the reaction and subsequent back and forth didn't seem justified compared to what kicked off this event. The over-reaction, in my opinion, needs delving into and

Gamma

needs to answer to why there reaction was so animated for what I would say was something very minor.

[Kowahbunga]

One other note, if this is a softclaim, which I'm guessing it isn't, feel free to just check me tonight. In fact, if there is a cop/similar role, check me, more than happy to definitively prove my innocence.

This doesn't feel like it comes from Town POV. It feels more like a dare from scum. Also I feel like I always hope any cop find scum with their shot(s) and that finding town is more on the side of a miss. Town confirming players is great and all, but this feels more like someone wanting to get their town clear so they can coast to the end of the game.

Here is the scenario that ran through my head from both POVs of Gryff!town and Gryff!scum.

Gryff!town wants to be town cleared without putting in any effort. I really can't see any other motivation to make this post from town POV. We'd all like to be town cleared... However, if there is a cop, and they do investigate Gryff!town - they would have to announce it on D2 for the rest of us to actually know anything. Which in turn risks the safety of the cop over one town clear. Are you really town cleared if one person knows it but doesn't say anything to the rest of us? I'm struggling to make something make sense for why a town person would ask for this.

Gryff!scum wants to be town cleared because maybe they have a role that investigates green to a cop and the sooner that information is revealed the easier scum have a path for victory. Or maybe scum have something to counter a cop once they know the cop, and Gryff is fine being a sacrifice to find the cop on D2.

I would think a cop is less likely to claim D2 with a green result on someone. Probably much more likely to claim on D2 if they get red. So I don't see much positive motivation from Gryff!town to think their best course this game is to just ask the cop to look at him.

[Kowahbunga]

I’m not entirely sure what geraint is trying to do with “ people have found me hard to play against as scum for some reason and i want to not have that happen this game”

ive found in recent games people find me hard to read. as scum ive been left alone, as town ive been eliminated. i want to avoid that and i am volunteering to be checked tonight, it will make me much happier if i know that someone has seen that i didn't do anything bad at night.

On the next page someone directed me to this with their quote. I don't remember reading this. I think there could be scum between Gryff and Geraintm - it doesn't make sense for two scum to want this. As in if they were both scum I don't see Gryff making their post I quoted. But I don't see this as a town!pov this early in the game so one of them has to be scum.

[Andante]

Argh! Just realised my 2nd previous post I messed up, but I hope you can see what I wrote brickwall.

But you are doing exactly to me what you are complaining is being done to you. You've decided I am scummy fo some reason and all my actions - even ones that to me scream town - you are twisting to be scum

It isn't really the same thing though, is it? Andante literally posted saying 6 posts in she thinks I am scum, and then subsequently went through every post I made and made it align with her read.

In post 228 I said you were town leaning. My read changed when you posted 247. I am happy with my read for now and will reassess as the game continues.

But for now VOTE: Haschel, think we need something from this slot.

so I was reading your ISO, taking notes, then made the comment, like now, I'm reading ISOs, taking notes, and trying to check in lol I didn't read the first 6, do "TIME TO SCUM CASE!" then bam! it was "post #, notes, next post #, notes, 'oh hey I want yalls thoughts on brick here', post#, notes"
cause I know if I want anything from peeps, I have to give them a bunch of time to answer, and knew the ISO would take me a while lol these next ISOs, I'll wait till I'm done most likely, so I can actually rank peeps, and if I have enough for someone to not be null, that's very likely my locked in read for the rest of the game. hahahaha all this effort and I can't wait to be dead wrong, to be fair, my reads are almost always completely correct, or very off/backwards lmaooo. New year New Andante! we're gonna have 100% accurate reads! Watch out scum! ok sorry, back to reading. I should shut up.

[redFF]

Kow your opinion here is wrong on NL day 1. They did the math many years ago.

Well, they forgot to carry a one or round the decimal or something. Maybe they forgot to multiply by logic.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21947

here is an old thread worth reading on this very subject !

I disagree with all of those points in that thread. I don't think any of that math takes in to account town powers and the odds those hit correctly. It's all looked at a stripped down basic "there are just town and there are just scum and they do nothing but vote" - games are not usually that simple - I also think it's a negative way to look at it and that having more town alive is always better than less town alive. Claiming that less town alive means a greater chance to lynch scum is a defeatist attitude.

Anyways, I don't want to get into it any more as it will take away from this game.

ok ! I tried

[Andante]

I see Gamma answered the above, should have read the full thread before posting. Will be back on this evening, rushing mafia posts is to no one’s benefits.

Yeah no you’re an outed liar.
VOTE: Brickwalll

ahhhhh I see, I might have been a tad unfair to Brick with this stuff, I can't really tell why yall started going at it though, ahhhh I don't know, like, I don't know how to read this back and forth stuff

Well, to be honest this is kinda my point. Gamma seemed to take exception to something I said and the reaction and subsequent back and forth didn't seem justified compared to what kicked off this event. The over-reaction, in my opinion, needs delving into and

Gamma

needs to answer to why there reaction was so animated for what I would say was something very minor.

Yeah, I saw you saying that so I went back to look, and that yeah, I think it falls more on gamma than you, idk!!! after that, I want all my facts straight before I comment further!!! Gamma is #11 on the list and I'm on #4 lol tbh based on what I was skimming though, I was like "I'm really not sure on Gamma here, so this could just be on expert level, and sort everyone else, but that's gonna require Kow to try to read people, instead of copy gerain, and Haschel to post, which seems like too much effort for day 1 the more I think about it

[Andante]

ok ! I tried

lol we appreciate the effort!!!

[Kowahbunga]

I wish y'all would play the game you signed up for rather than the game you wish you were playing.

I think my frustration with D1 comes from the confidence people have during it that I can't find myself to play with that early. It makes me feel inadequate as a player resulting in my dislike for the day. But with more information I feel more confident to give an opinion on events. In D1 I don't like giving opinions because I feel like it's not beneficial to blindly guess. It's different when you have blindly guess but with something to play pong with your head.

[Andante]

One other note, if this is a softclaim, which I'm guessing it isn't, feel free to just check me tonight. In fact, if there is a cop/similar role, check me, more than happy to definitively prove my innocence.

This doesn't feel like it comes from Town POV. It feels more like a dare from scum. Also I feel like I always hope any cop find scum with their shot(s) and that finding town is more on the side of a miss. Town confirming players is great and all, but this feels more like someone wanting to get their town clear so they can coast to the end of the game.

Here is the scenario that ran through my head from both POVs of Gryff!town and Gryff!scum.

Gryff!town wants to be town cleared without putting in any effort. I really can't see any other motivation to make this post from town POV. We'd all like to be town cleared... However, if there is a cop, and they do investigate Gryff!town - they would have to announce it on D2 for the rest of us to actually know anything. Which in turn risks the safety of the cop over one town clear. Are you really town cleared if one person knows it but doesn't say anything to the rest of us? I'm struggling to make something make sense for why a town person would ask for this.

Gryff!scum wants to be town cleared because maybe they have a role that investigates green to a cop and the sooner that information is revealed the easier scum have a path for victory. Or maybe scum have something to counter a cop once they know the cop, and Gryff is fine being a sacrifice to find the cop on D2.

I would think a cop is less likely to claim D2 with a green result on someone. Probably much more likely to claim on D2 if they get red. So I don't see much positive motivation from Gryff!town to think their best course this game is to just ask the cop to look at him.

Woah. Kow!!! YOU CAN DO IT!!! And like, your first sentence was exactly my thought, I'm just like, why are we outing "HEY I SEE A SOFTCLAIM" like, it's almost pushing the person to confirm/deny the role. like, in the moment I read the cop check on me as a joke, I had just posted a lot, and yeah, my gut reaction when others do it is "ok yeah, town" but specifically outing you think it's a soft claim? yeah..
and my comment on the asking to be checked part is: gerain had literally already asked to be checked this game, and if we all sit here "PLEASE CHECK ME!" it's like, seriously? and the investigate thing yes, as I said to gerain, people asking to be checked instantly screams to me "mafia doctor and gunsmiths!!!" I swear that game ruined my trust for life lmaoo

but know what yall, I think Kow is good to live to d2! Thank you kow, this was the content I wanted, and the fact it's exactly the same thoughts I was having on it? I think you may have just went straight to town leans tbh

[redFF]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: herta

how about this

[Brickwalll]

Argh! Just realised my 2nd previous post I messed up, but I hope you can see what I wrote brickwall.

But you are doing exactly to me what you are complaining is being done to you. You've decided I am scummy fo some reason and all my actions - even ones that to me scream town - you are twisting to be scum

It isn't really the same thing though, is it? Andante literally posted saying 6 posts in she thinks I am scum, and then subsequently went through every post I made and made it align with her read.

In post 228 I said you were town leaning. My read changed when you posted 247. I am happy with my read for now and will reassess as the game continues.

But for now VOTE: Haschel, think we need something from this slot.

so I was reading your ISO, taking notes, then made the comment, like now, I'm reading ISOs, taking notes, and trying to check in lol I didn't read the first 6, do "TIME TO SCUM CASE!" then bam! it was "post #, notes, next post #, notes, 'oh hey I want yalls thoughts on brick here', post#, notes"
cause I know if I want anything from peeps, I have to give them a bunch of time to answer, and knew the ISO would take me a while lol these next ISOs, I'll wait till I'm done most likely, so I can actually rank peeps, and if I have enough for someone to not be null, that's very likely my locked in read for the rest of the game. hahahaha all this effort and I can't wait to be dead wrong, to be fair, my reads are almost always completely correct, or very off/backwards lmaooo. New year New Andante! we're gonna have 100% accurate reads! Watch out scum! ok sorry, back to reading. I should shut up.

Thanks Andante. This was more to point out to Gerain that your casing of me is very different to my casing of him, and that isn't saying your way of casing is wrong. If anything it sounds very thorough. Obvs your read is wrong though haha, so it would seem New Year same Andante. But all good, your attempts seem genuine and like some others here you are my #1 town read for now. Although, unlike Lazy, I won't be repeating it another ten times.

[Andante]

I wish y'all would play the game you signed up for rather than the game you wish you were playing.

I think my frustration with D1 comes from the confidence people have during it that I can't find myself to play with that early. It makes me feel inadequate as a player resulting in my dislike for the day. But with more information I feel more confident to give an opinion on events. In D1 I don't like giving opinions because I feel like it's not beneficial to blindly guess. It's different when you have blindly guess but with something to play pong with your head.

What about the pov where we generate enough info day 1, so that those with night actions can actually use them? Like, say we have a vig? If we race through day1, vig will likely random fire, but we talk, vig can shoot someone doing nothing, or can attempt to make a hero shot and get yelled at later if wrong, investigates, they read what happens, and make their best judgement from there, like, I feel like D1 isn't just "oh we're gonna lim town!!" it's also like, we see what was flipped, we see who was for/against it, who was scared to commit to a decision one way or the other, we get info, even if we do flip town. Then you have people like me who have played too much mafia in their life, and see the same "tells" people use, and honestly this game, its been a whole lot of people repeating ideas others said and clinging to them, those are the greatest red flags in my books, a close second is those not even trying to make reads, I don't expect perfection from anyone, I literally just need 1-2 reads from people, and that's definitely enough for me to get a general idea of them on day 1
uhhh that's mostly tangent I think, tldr: yeah I get we all play d1 differently, no need to feel inadequate! my personal style is more, I sort best I can d1, and then new, contradictory information changes the reads, and I reevaluate, but bulk of my effort is always day 1, cause we're not guaranteed a d2 or d3 here, so I feel I have to get my thoughts out now while I'm alive

[Andante]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: herta

how about this

what are your thoughts on Kow after those posts?

[Brickwalll]

I wish y'all would play the game you signed up for rather than the game you wish you were playing.

I think my frustration with D1 comes from the confidence people have during it that I can't find myself to play with that early. It makes me feel inadequate as a player resulting in my dislike for the day. But with more information I feel more confident to give an opinion on events. In D1 I don't like giving opinions because I feel like it's not beneficial to blindly guess. It's different when you have blindly guess but with something to play pong with your head.

Someone commenting and probing on D1, even if it turns out to be wrong or lead to nothing, is 100% better than someone complaining about having no info D1 and they even willing to try.

Tbh, no one has a clue who scum is. But we ask questions and at least try to dig into posts to work something out. Applying pressure is certainly better than doing nothing at all.

[Brickwalll]

and they aren't even willing to try*

[Kowahbunga]

Kow

, let's just say we do no-lim, what is the benefit if you don't give content outside of the

Andante

tunnel?

My thing is this, a no-lim guarantees no wagon on a town power that gets to L1 and has to claim it to stay alive. A no lim means everyone has a night to potentially do something, and odds say if the scum have to pick randomly from the town (because, ya know, they lack any sort of indication about us at all), that they'll miss town powers. The game can really start on D2. Then there's at least people alive who maybe have information to be able to watch how things work and watch that player they know the truth about.

At this point though, it would probably be dumb to no lim this day. I'm more of an advocate of people using their first post in d1 to do it and not say anything. Scum have probably already sorted us and have an idea of who they're killing.

I just look at it from a RL perspective. Let's say this was actually happening and we had to kill people in our town to eradicate the bad people. Wouldn't you want as much information as you can get before making that decision? Or are you really okay just randomly picking someone on the basis of "maybe?" Obviously this isn't real life, but i just see a no lim allowing more town to be alive d2, and more information to come from d2 than the information we get from a d1 elimination on a player that is probably the easiest wagon to cast doubt on as to who was or wasn't on it.

It's obvious I'm in the minority though. Which really seems weird because I feel like I'm all the time reading posts from people about how much they hate D1, and then I present an alternative and it's shot down.

[Lazy Shirou]

@Kowa

1. how many mafia games have you played before/how long have you been playing this game for?

2. it's a weird request but i want you to give me 3 or 4

fake reads

. if you're town, i want you to pretend to be scum for a few minutes and prove to me that you

can

fake reads by giving convincing reasons on them when you're lying. i want you to prove me that you can convincingly lie in the first place otherwise it sounds like you may just have no idea how to lie on reads as scum.