Mini Normal 2288: Reposting Same Picture As Flavor Are Lame

[PenguinPower]

Kow

, let's just say we do no-lim, what is the benefit if you don't give content outside of the

Andante

tunnel?

My thing is this, a no-lim guarantees no wagon on a town power that gets to L1 and has to claim it to stay alive. A no lim means everyone has a night to potentially do something, and odds say if the scum have to pick randomly from the town (because, ya know, they lack any sort of indication about us at all), that they'll miss town powers. The game can really start on D2. Then there's at least people alive who maybe have information to be able to watch how things work and watch that player they know the truth about.

At this point though, it would probably be dumb to no lim this day. I'm more of an advocate of people using their first post in d1 to do it and not say anything. Scum have probably already sorted us and have an idea of who they're killing.

I just look at it from a RL perspective. Let's say this was actually happening and we had to kill people in our town to eradicate the bad people. Wouldn't you want as much information as you can get before making that decision? Or are you really okay just randomly picking someone on the basis of "maybe?" Obviously this isn't real life, but i just see a no lim allowing more town to be alive d2, and more information to come from d2 than the information we get from a d1 elimination on a player that is probably the easiest wagon to cast doubt on as to who was or wasn't on it.

It's obvious I'm in the minority though. Which really seems weird because I feel like I'm all the time reading posts from people about how much they hate D1, and then I present an alternative and it's shot down.

I'll leave with you some light reading: viewtopic.php?t=21947

[Lazy Shirou]

My thing is this, a no-lim guarantees no wagon on a town power that gets to L1 and has to claim it to stay alive.

i had this exact same argument in my first newbie game here, but here's the thing kowah:

1.the fact you can't effectively scumhunt yet in d1 perhaps doesn't mean others with more experience on this game can't. there's quite a few games that have scum eliminations on d1.

2. you're assuming that with "enough discussion" we can be conclude assuredly that we know who scum are, which isn't true and i've learned it painfully in my time here. Even the best town players in 20 years of this site incorrectly scumreads townies and townreads wolfies quite often, mafia isn't a game you can ever be sure of anything except on a cop/mech check/clear/guilty.

proving our guesses right or wrong to see if we should continue in a given direction or reconsider is the best way to win games. we "veterans" here all do that because most of us all have come to conclude it's the most effective way to play this game.

[redFF]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: herta

how about this

what are your thoughts on Kow after those posts?

his wagon has lost steam and the big walls he's posting read like genuine frustration

[redFF]

Kow

, let's just say we do no-lim, what is the benefit if you don't give content outside of the

Andante

tunnel?

My thing is this, a no-lim guarantees no wagon on a town power that gets to L1 and has to claim it to stay alive. A no lim means everyone has a night to potentially do something, and odds say if the scum have to pick randomly from the town (because, ya know, they lack any sort of indication about us at all), that they'll miss town powers. The game can really start on D2. Then there's at least people alive who maybe have information to be able to watch how things work and watch that player they know the truth about.

At this point though, it would probably be dumb to no lim this day. I'm more of an advocate of people using their first post in d1 to do it and not say anything. Scum have probably already sorted us and have an idea of who they're killing.

I just look at it from a RL perspective. Let's say this was actually happening and we had to kill people in our town to eradicate the bad people. Wouldn't you want as much information as you can get before making that decision? Or are you really okay just randomly picking someone on the basis of "maybe?" Obviously this isn't real life, but i just see a no lim allowing more town to be alive d2, and more information to come from d2 than the information we get from a d1 elimination on a player that is probably the easiest wagon to cast doubt on as to who was or wasn't on it.

It's obvious I'm in the minority though. Which really seems weird because I feel like I'm all the time reading posts from people about how much they hate D1, and then I present an alternative and it's shot down.

I'll leave with you some light reading: viewtopic.php?t=21947

i posted this exact thread earlier ITT lol he disagrees

[PenguinPower]

Oh - well he's objectively wrong so...

[Kowahbunga]

I wish y'all would play the game you signed up for rather than the game you wish you were playing.

I think my frustration with D1 comes from the confidence people have during it that I can't find myself to play with that early. It makes me feel inadequate as a player resulting in my dislike for the day. But with more information I feel more confident to give an opinion on events. In D1 I don't like giving opinions because I feel like it's not beneficial to blindly guess. It's different when you have blindly guess but with something to play pong with your head.

What about the pov where we generate enough info day 1, so that those with night actions can actually use them? Like, say we have a vig? If we race through day1, vig will likely random fire, but we talk, vig can shoot someone doing nothing, or can attempt to make a hero shot and get yelled at later if wrong, investigates, they read what happens, and make their best judgement from there, like, I feel like D1 isn't just "oh we're gonna lim town!!" it's also like, we see what was flipped, we see who was for/against it, who was scared to commit to a decision one way or the other, we get info, even if we do flip town. Then you have people like me who have played too much mafia in their life, and see the same "tells" people use, and honestly this game, its been a whole lot of people repeating ideas others said and clinging to them, those are the greatest red flags in my books, a close second is those not even trying to make reads, I don't expect perfection from anyone, I literally just need 1-2 reads from people, and that's definitely enough for me to get a general idea of them on day 1
uhhh that's mostly tangent I think, tldr: yeah I get we all play d1 differently, no need to feel inadequate! my personal style is more, I sort best I can d1, and then new, contradictory information changes the reads, and I reevaluate, but bulk of my effort is always day 1, cause we're not guaranteed a d2 or d3 here, so I feel I have to get my thoughts out now while I'm alive

I would argue a good vig would hold their shot as long as possible. Especially if the logic of that math in the post I was linked is so widely accepted. The longer a vig holds a shot, the more likely that shot hits scum assuming things aren't going well for town. But a N2 shot seems like a bad idea from a vig standpoint. However, I'm thinking this is just an example for all town powers and you're not specifically wanting my opinion on a vig now that I typed all this.

I think the best argument against me you just gave here with the "not guaranteed a d2 or d3 and so on" so you gotta play the days you're alive. That definitely makes more sense. I just get weirded out by the confidence and everyone looks scummy to me. I've always scum hunted by looking for absolutes. So D1 on this site feels like I'm just stuck in a bastard game because everyone is just so confident about their reads over the tiniest stuff and I see an absolute and i want to attack but as i attack that two other people have spoken in absolutes and all of a sudden I'm just lost in the woods reading everything forgetting to respond.

[Andante]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: herta

how about this

what are your thoughts on Kow after those posts?

his wagon has lost steam and the big walls he's posting read like genuine frustration

Ok, do you have any actual thoughts on these ideas in his big walls? Specifically your thoughts on 434 please, that's not "genuine frustration" and that's actual game related content from kow, so what do you think of it?
(I try not to TR people off of emotions, that's a recipe for disaster)

[redFF]

this site is generally more focused on day play/discussion/reading people through their posts, then by solving the game through night actions.

[Lazy Shirou]

I just look at it from a RL perspective. Let's say this was actually happening and we had to kill people in our town to eradicate the bad people. Wouldn't you want as much information as you can get before making that decision? Or are you really okay just randomly picking someone on the basis of "maybe?"

we wouldn't randomly pick someone then because their lives are at stake it's a morality issue, we're on a forum game though there's no permanent damage on getting something wrong (other than your own self-esteem to ?some?).

if we no lim here, we have one less elimination/shot at killing mafia and

assure

that only a townie potentially will be dead tomorrow.

the most effective way to win the game would still be gradually checking our "guesses" even in that situation. people wouldn't do it bc it would be cruel. it wouldn't be bc it's not mathematically effective.

your argument would be more plausible if dead townies couldn't "win" the game but i (and many others) have been in your position/side of the argument before and i (like most others?) completely changed my mind.

[Kowahbunga]

@Kowa

1. how many mafia games have you played before/how long have you been playing this game for?

2. it's a weird request but i want you to give me 3 or 4

fake reads

. if you're town, i want you to pretend to be scum for a few minutes and prove to me that you

can

fake reads by giving convincing reasons on them when you're lying. i want you to prove me that you can convincingly lie in the first place otherwise it sounds like you may just have no idea how to lie on reads as scum.

I've been playing probably 15 years.

I don't see a benefit in me wasting my time giving fake reads and pretending to be something. So I will not provide you with fake reads. I'm confident in my ability to lie about things and paint pictures if needed.

[Gamma Emerald]

I see Gamma answered the above, should have read the full thread before posting. Will be back on this evening, rushing mafia posts is to no one’s benefits.

Yeah no you’re an outed liar.
VOTE: Brickwalll

ahhhhh I see, I might have been a tad unfair to Brick with this stuff, I can't really tell why yall started going at it though, ahhhh I don't know, like, I don't know how to read this back and forth stuff

Well, to be honest this is kinda my point. Gamma seemed to take exception to something I said and the reaction and subsequent back and forth didn't seem justified compared to what kicked off this event. The over-reaction, in my opinion, needs delving into and

Gamma

needs to answer to why there reaction was so animated for what I would say was something very minor.

don’t feel like it
stay mad

[Lazy Shirou]

a game where you can win even after you're dead as either alignment can't be applied to RL circumstances Kowah

i find this discussion a bit funny because one of the things that weirded me out when i was a newbie was the fact you could win after dead in the first place, didn't feel "right", but it also would be a completely different (and honestly kinda interesting) game if dead townies couldn't win, it would make townies kinda play like scum for the survivalist aspect.

(although site culture is such that a dead townie would still feel like they won anyway if town wins by the end)

[Lazy Shirou]

I've been playing probably 15 years.

I don't see a benefit in me wasting my time giving fake reads and pretending to be something. So I will not provide you with fake reads. I'm confident in my ability to lie about things and paint pictures if needed.

VOTE: kowah

i don't even think you're necessarily scum rn but i don't necessarily believe you can convincingly lie about reads either atm

you talk about needing more "info" to figure out the townies/scum but you don't even want to help me figure you out?

[Brickwalll]

I see Gamma answered the above, should have read the full thread before posting. Will be back on this evening, rushing mafia posts is to no one’s benefits.

Yeah no you’re an outed liar.
VOTE: Brickwalll

ahhhhh I see, I might have been a tad unfair to Brick with this stuff, I can't really tell why yall started going at it though, ahhhh I don't know, like, I don't know how to read this back and forth stuff

Well, to be honest this is kinda my point. Gamma seemed to take exception to something I said and the reaction and subsequent back and forth didn't seem justified compared to what kicked off this event. The over-reaction, in my opinion, needs delving into and

Gamma

needs to answer to why there reaction was so animated for what I would say was something very minor.

don’t feel like it
stay mad

lol.

[Gamma Emerald]

In terms of Gryff vs. geraint regarding asking for investigation targeting them, geraint’s looks remarkably better than Gryff’s. In part because of the calling attention to the potential softclaim, which others have also pointed out.

[redFF]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: herta

how about this

what are your thoughts on Kow after those posts?

his wagon has lost steam and the big walls he's posting read like genuine frustration

Ok, do you have any actual thoughts on these ideas in his big walls? Specifically your thoughts on 434 please, that's not "genuine frustration" and that's actual game related content from kow, so what do you think of it?
(I try not to TR people off of emotions, that's a recipe for disaster)

#434 is a legit useless post, brings zero to the table.
"he could be town, he could be scum"

i unvoted cause the wagon is going nowhere and this post right here could be AtE but is the towniest hes looked.

Anyways, I look forward to being scum read for my opinions on how the game should be played. Don't feel bad about it, it always happens when I make this post.

I don't have any reads on anyone else. There will never be a list today. It will all be in the moment. I will look at wagons, and I will question weird votes. I will decide if I believe role claims and results when they're presented.

In fact, just consider this intent to hammer the first E1 I see. Even if it's me.

I also had a thought that i could be mistaking being wrong and inexperience for scumminess

[Kowahbunga]

Oh - well he's objectively wrong so...

Yeah I'm honestly fine if people mostly feel i'm wrong and prefer to play the game the way that thread says to do it. In my opinion, I feel it would be better played the way I would play it out if I was every player in the game. I'm not, and so I try to fall in line.

I really didn't understand how I looked more scummy than andante from our initial interactions to everyone. It really confused me. So in my angst decided to try and present where i come from so i can show everyone a genuine me. I felt like at the point where I had obviously lost my argument with andante that by just moving on and playing the game it would look inadvertently fake and made the conscious decision to discuss this so I can show everyone where I'm coming from rather than try to just shift the blame somewhere else.

[Lazy Shirou]

@Kowah

3 fake reads with some good reasoning

that's all i'm gonna keep asking from you in this game. i need you to prove me and everyone else that you know how to lie so we can move from this.

from our PoV you can just be scum that doesn't know how to lie so far.

[Kowahbunga]

I've been playing probably 15 years.

I don't see a benefit in me wasting my time giving fake reads and pretending to be something. So I will not provide you with fake reads. I'm confident in my ability to lie about things and paint pictures if needed.

VOTE: kowah

i don't even think you're necessarily scum rn but i don't necessarily believe you can convincingly lie about reads either atm

you talk about needing more "info" to figure out the townies/scum but you don't even want to help me figure you out?

Okay well voting someone you don't think is scum just feeds into my point of the frustration of d1. It's also not very pro town.

[Andante]

I wish y'all would play the game you signed up for rather than the game you wish you were playing.

I think my frustration with D1 comes from the confidence people have during it that I can't find myself to play with that early. It makes me feel inadequate as a player resulting in my dislike for the day. But with more information I feel more confident to give an opinion on events. In D1 I don't like giving opinions because I feel like it's not beneficial to blindly guess. It's different when you have blindly guess but with something to play pong with your head.

What about the pov where we generate enough info day 1, so that those with night actions can actually use them? Like, say we have a vig? If we race through day1, vig will likely random fire, but we talk, vig can shoot someone doing nothing, or can attempt to make a hero shot and get yelled at later if wrong, investigates, they read what happens, and make their best judgement from there, like, I feel like D1 isn't just "oh we're gonna lim town!!" it's also like, we see what was flipped, we see who was for/against it, who was scared to commit to a decision one way or the other, we get info, even if we do flip town. Then you have people like me who have played too much mafia in their life, and see the same "tells" people use, and honestly this game, its been a whole lot of people repeating ideas others said and clinging to them, those are the greatest red flags in my books, a close second is those not even trying to make reads, I don't expect perfection from anyone, I literally just need 1-2 reads from people, and that's definitely enough for me to get a general idea of them on day 1
uhhh that's mostly tangent I think, tldr: yeah I get we all play d1 differently, no need to feel inadequate! my personal style is more, I sort best I can d1, and then new, contradictory information changes the reads, and I reevaluate, but bulk of my effort is always day 1, cause we're not guaranteed a d2 or d3 here, so I feel I have to get my thoughts out now while I'm alive

I would argue a good vig would hold their shot as long as possible. Especially if the logic of that math in the post I was linked is so widely accepted. The longer a vig holds a shot, the more likely that shot hits scum assuming things aren't going well for town. But a N2 shot seems like a bad idea from a vig standpoint. However, I'm thinking this is just an example for all town powers and you're not specifically wanting my opinion on a vig now that I typed all this.

I think the best argument against me you just gave here with the "not guaranteed a d2 or d3 and so on" so you gotta play the days you're alive. That definitely makes more sense. I just get weirded out by the confidence and everyone looks scummy to me. I've always scum hunted by looking for absolutes. So D1 on this site feels like I'm just stuck in a bastard game because everyone is just so confident about their reads over the tiniest stuff and I see an absolute and i want to attack but as i attack that two other people have spoken in absolutes and all of a sudden I'm just lost in the woods reading everything forgetting to respond.

Ok, let's assume I'm the vig, I'm not a good vig, it's so hard to holster the gun, must shoot! cause I'll either be the hero, or I'm shooting someone scummy, so it's fine, and you can not opperate under the assumption the town vig is good, and if vig just waits till lylo to shoot, we can auto lose, like, I'd rather vig shoot early, and go get the reads from that, cause again, if we have dead townies, we can look at who was pushing them cause they genuinely believed them to be scum, and who was just taking advantage of the wrong townies, ehhh vig is easiest to talk about for 2 reasons
1) pew pew we all love guns!
2) this is an enchant game, either town or scum or both probably has some kind of vig (unless that's not normal, 1 sec, ehhh too hard to look up where the normal rules are right now, I'll look after this)
but yes, applies to like all PRs, but if we have bodyguards/docs, they want to have a general idea of who to save, if we rush through day 1, they're useless/toast, and that's all I'm saying on PRs, day 1 gives lots of info, whether you're someone who uses that info or not, it's there and exists, the math doesn't matter really

I'll give you a tip, most of my confidence here is fake lol, you just give your thoughts, say what you think, see if that stick with anyone, see if anyone hates it, and go from there, so remember how I had no confidence pushing you? That ended up creating a giant wagon, and a lot of "yeah Kow maf!" so now, I'm looking at red like "you felt strongly about kow, and are now flipping your read just cause of frustration?" Like, yeah sure, I had a scum lean on kow with only talking about me, but 434 was not bad at all, in fact I really liked it, and am not interested in limming you today kow.
So, you're actually in a position right now with a lot of absolutes, you know your alignment, so you can look at those who voiced a SR on you, and see who looks like the scum in that, like you saying you have no absolutes? I could lie about a cop check tomorrow, that's not as absolute as you knowing your alignment, like, in my ISOs (which I've gotten super distracted and haven't returned to, I literally have a note about you from Herta's ISO (-81- joined kow voters, with weak reason, mentioned kow again 116 ***look back upon kow scumflip)
Like, only you can go look at 81/116 and KNOW what that looks like, I have to wait for your flip in order to revisit Herta jumping on

I hope that makes sense, I know I kinda just ramble, Kow, you don't have to be 100% confident, I managed to create a full on wagon on you just based off a hunch I had with when you voted me, and from that, I've generated thoughts on the others (I'm still working on my exact thoughts lol)


Tldr: DON'T BE AFRAID! FAKE CONFIDENCE FOR THE WIN! YOU GOT THIS! WE WANNA HEAR YOUR VOICE!!! Woooooo

[Andante]

this site is generally more focused on day play/discussion/reading people through their posts, then by solving the game through night actions.

so have you actually read 434?

[Lazy Shirou]

i'm voting you because you spend a lot of time talking about identifying townies but can't help me with a small request for me to try to identify you if you're town.

it's a bit hypocritical, and scummy, unfortunately.

[Kowahbunga]

@Kowah

3 fake reads with some good reasoning

that's all i'm gonna keep asking from you in this game. i need you to prove me and everyone else that you know how to lie so we can move from this.

from our PoV you can just be scum that doesn't know how to lie so far.

I refuse to lie. So no, ask all you want. First, that helps no one, I don't see your point in requesting it. Second, it will never feel or look real. Lying about a lie will look fake to me and won't prove anything because it's not in the moment. I'm confident in my ability to lie as scum, I'm not confident in my ability to lie about a lie, as scum or town.

[Brickwalll]

@Kowah

3 fake reads with some good reasoning

that's all i'm gonna keep asking from you in this game. i need you to prove me and everyone else that you know how to lie so we can move from this.

from our PoV you can just be scum that doesn't know how to lie so far.

He doesn't need to prove it for me, you need him to prove it for you. Not everyone else.

VOTE: Lazy Shirou openly saying you think someone is town and then voting them because they won't comply with your request feels like borderline blackmail...

[Kowahbunga]

VOTE: kowah

i don't even think you're necessarily scum rn but i don't necessarily believe you can convincingly lie about reads either atm

it's a bit hypocritical, and scummy, unfortunately.

so am i scummy or not?