Open 873: PYP: Anime Music & Memes - Game Over!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What about it was pockety to you, or is your instinct the same as Unwnd's in that you both think I could theoretically get high and go shitposty loose style to try and engender townreads as a strategy so there's a fear of it there?

kind of yeah the sense that it was leaning into wee happy fun times vibes and saying stuff to get on people's good side and bring about positive feelings

also, peta, for the sake of my read on you, I have a question:

do you remember the newbie game we won together? This question has a follow up, but I need to know to what extent you remember that game first.

yep, i gave you hammer in f3 and you won it

I guess I get it, since I'm not really known for it? I feel as if I've come back to normal level and have been putting in a lot of work since sobering up, so... it's bothering me a little to get heat for something that was just me enjoying myself and chilling? Not that this is major heat just... I'm hearing a lot of it.

--

Right, awesome. Okay, so... in that game we had a talk about how it was hard to get reads on each other because of the paranoia of shared knowledge and respect for the skill level of the other player, which inevitably led to you giving me the hammer while I was calling you scum and trusting me to find it, because it was the only move you had as a townie.

The question I have for you is,

Given you were able to find me as town in that game, and you're currently saying you've gotten 0 town pings from me, what was it specifically in that game that found me as town for you that you're NOT getting from me here?

that's a good question

specifically to that game, i think there was a great deal more context to the situation we were in - there were several days' worth of gameplay, there was a flipped scum, there was a nightkill to analyze. also it was a 50/50 between you and another player who was doing absolutely nothing.

but in particular in that game what got me to a townread of your slot was that you had replaced The Bulge, and i went to the effort of doing an extensive meta dive of him and came away with the conclusion that his play while he was in the game, even if a bit confusing, was solidly in his town mode of play


now, i don't have that advantage here, which means this is going to be trickier. i also don't have any of that other data, because it's roughly 24 hours into day 1. i could easily be seeing ghosts with my read on you, which is why i'm not pushing it at all. if you're town i will figure it out at some point.

Let me tell you my version of this question, if it was pointed at me. Because after you trusted me, I had to find you too, right?

What let me find you that game was how completely earnest you were being, in a way I'd never seen as town you before. You were emoting, you were fighting for it, it was like the mists parted and I could see it.

And it was SO strong and SO blinding that it shook me from a hand I was 90% set on. I was literally going to just hammer you, and you sold me out of it with genuine reactions and emotional play as town.

So it's a bit early, and one of my struggles with you right now is I feel like if you had wanted to, you could have gotten into it with me while I was high or even when I was being a little more silly and tried to connect in that emotional way to find each other.

So what stopped you from doing that, and ended up with us here discussing how you're mildly paranoid about it over having engaged with it directly?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wanna work on some other reads with you Unwnd, if you're up for that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, put more simply for you Peta:

If you thought my early game was possibly basic pandering to get general town reads, why didn't you bother to engage directly to either find out if you were right or possibly find someone to work with?

[unwnd]

I wanna work on some other reads with you Unwnd, if you're up for that

I'm willing but it begs the question

Why was I given the exclusivity

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wanna work on some other reads with you Unwnd, if you're up for that

I'm willing but it begs the question

Why was I given the exclusivity

Because I town read you as a result of the interaction we just had where you more or less wrote precisely how I was feeling about the interaction and we were able to piece it together?

And you said you were looking to town block.

So I'm eager to try and work through reads with you and possibly accomplish that goal?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, I want to be townread by someone I townread and the best way to do that is to go through reads together and argue them out so you can see my progressions and my approach to the game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I'm not exactly being subtle here, Unwnd. I'm townreading people who mindmeld with me (see: Notty) and you're trying to townblock, and we just had a good read alignment and discussion and I want to do more of it because I think it wins us the game.

Or gives our win EQ a big boost, at least.

[unwnd]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

[petapan]

Let me tell you my version of this question, if it was pointed at me. Because after you trusted me, I had to find you too, right?

What let me find you that game was how completely earnest you were being, in a way I'd never seen as town you before. You were emoting, you were fighting for it, it was like the mists parted and I could see it.

And it was SO strong and SO blinding that it shook me from a hand I was 90% set on. I was literally going to just hammer you, and you sold me out of it with genuine reactions and emotional play as town.

So it's a bit early, and one of my struggles with you right now is I feel like if you had wanted to, you could have gotten into it with me while I was high or even when I was being a little more silly and tried to connect in that emotional way to find each other.

So what stopped you from doing that, and ended up with us here discussing how you're mildly paranoid about it over having engaged with it directly?

right, so again, very different contexts - that was a final 3, game on the line, i was basically laying everything on the table because i wanted to convince you and win.

here, it's day 1, and i play this spot very differently than i would a f3, i'm less concerned with making myself findable, i'm still doing stuff but i'm also in observer mode a lot of the time because me directly interacting with things can interfere with my read on people, and often it's more useful to leave people to their own devices and see what they do

if i had wanted to i could have argued with you but i think coming at you with a half-assed gut ping in the early game isn't going to be productive - like, i couldn't have imagined it would lead to a meaningful conversation, if you're scum you're not going to get caught on that and if you're town we probably get bogged down in minutiae.

so i did what i do with a lot of early game reads and kept it in my back pocket while mentally marking you as Under Observation. sometimes that type of read turns out to be nothing and i quietly abandon it, other times i bring it up when it strikes me as being worth mentioning. what made me feel like actually mentioning i wasn't townreading you was the fact that in my estimation other people had started to look more towny and you were left somewhere in the remainder. of course it's still early and there are big error bars, but like i said i'm not pushing you

[unwnd]

As I said before, lot of big egos in this game. Lot of established people.

I just got out of a game where pretty much a PList of 21+ people all townread me and were practically eating out of my hand. They eliminated townies for me as I twisted the narrative while hinting at reality. It was probably the most synchronized play I've had ever. Something in me just clicked, and I think I'm capable of doing something like that again.

It offends me a bit to be understimated, sometimes

[petapan]

Like, put more simply for you Peta:

If you thought my early game was possibly basic pandering to get general town reads, why didn't you bother to engage directly to either find out if you were right or possibly find someone to work with?

i don't think i'd be able to get an accurate read on you via direct engagement, especially in the early game

anyone who's good enough at scum is going to have a pretty well trained response to pressure and they're not gonna get caught easily

[Cephrir]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

I know I shouldn't intrude but I'm wondering what it costs you to attempt to do the things she's suggesting and see if it feels right

[unwnd]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

I know I shouldn't intrude but I'm wondering what it costs you to attempt to do the things she's suggesting and see if it feels right

I mean I'm a tryhard at heart so when someone says to the effect of 'lets be sweaty and just talk about various shit' I'm pretty keen to accepting

I am going to try to get something out of it personally, though

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

In order:

You're not a sap, but anyone could theoretically be pocketed. I'm not asking you to blindly enter a partnership with me, I'm asking you to do the work and let me show you I'm town.

Additionally, I don't know who you are but I still remember that you know me and I don't know you. Whatever else that means, it means you're someone I probably have a decent amount of respect for in the game of Mafia.

I'm not sure I understand the "wouldn't be offering my hand if it meant furthering scum wincon" question, so please feel free to elaborate if I misunderstand but I'll take it to mean "I know why you do this as scum, why do you do this as town?" and the answer to that is bluntly, because I can. I recognize I'm strong enough to make a play like this as scum, and for it to possibly even work. No words I'm speaking here are impossible to exit my mouth as scum. But it's not a blind action, nor is it immutable, but we'll get to that later. In essence, I'm doing this as town to try and solve the game, plain and simple.

I think we've discussed how much more social I'm being here enough, I agree.

In regards to my paranoia with you.

Why should I be paranoid before I'm even proven wrong? What does it gain to wishy washy over my instincts as they are now? Will I be paranoid if we hunt down townies and I worry you've pocketed me? Yeah, but the "hunt down townies" part has to come first.

In my mind, my gut screams you're town. But even if you aren't, I don't think I lose out here in terms of solving. Maybe you manipulate me for a day or two but then I reevaluate and possibly solve the game from that position.

I don't have any paranoia of you because I've no need for it if I'm right. And I have the space and time to be wrong.

[notscience]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

I know I shouldn't intrude but I'm wondering what it costs you to attempt to do the things she's suggesting and see if it feels right

What’s it matter to you?

[petapan]

oooooOOOOooooOOOOoooo

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, put more simply for you Peta:

If you thought my early game was possibly basic pandering to get general town reads, why didn't you bother to engage directly to either find out if you were right or possibly find someone to work with?

i don't think i'd be able to get an accurate read on you via direct engagement, especially in the early game

anyone who's good enough at scum is going to have a pretty well trained response to pressure and they're not gonna get caught easily

Right, okay. Fair enough.

One last question:

Is it that you think an interaction like that would be pointless, or that you think it would be dangerous?

i.e: do you think it just never amounts to anything for you, or are you worried about being convinced of the wrong thing as a result?

[unwnd]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

Why should I be paranoid before I'm even proven wrong? What does it gain to wishy washy over my instincts as they are now? Will I be paranoid if we hunt down townies and I worry you've pocketed me? Yeah, but the "hunt down townies" part has to come first.

I think this a good thought. You're producing a lot of stuff I agree with. If I didn't agree with you I probably wouldn't even be trying to converse here. What you were saying on 'how we win the game' is fundamentally the right approach. However, do know that my own paranoia extends to everyone else here.

It's D1 however and I'm willing if not already stated. Where do you want to start?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want to start with Luke, because you're most certain there, and my initial gut read on Luke was town upon entry.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

oh and i think luke's town btw

From around here, specifically.

[Bell]

I'm gonna be blunt myself first:

Do you think I'm a sap who is easily pocketed? I'd like some sort of self-defense that you

wouldn't

just be offering your hand if it meant furthering scum wincon. There's a lot of social preference with your game here and I think you've explained it enough. I'm not discouraging you and I think everything you've said so far I can only respond 'fair enough' and 'that's reasonable'.

However, I think some healthy paranoia does people good. I'm surprised there isn't any sense of paranoia from you in regard to me (or elsewhere)

Yes.

[petapan]

Like, put more simply for you Peta:

If you thought my early game was possibly basic pandering to get general town reads, why didn't you bother to engage directly to either find out if you were right or possibly find someone to work with?

i don't think i'd be able to get an accurate read on you via direct engagement, especially in the early game

anyone who's good enough at scum is going to have a pretty well trained response to pressure and they're not gonna get caught easily

Right, okay. Fair enough.

One last question:

Is it that you think an interaction like that would be pointless, or that you think it would be dangerous?

i.e: do you think it just never amounts to anything for you, or are you worried about being convinced of the wrong thing as a result?

hm, i'm less worried about being convinced of the wrong thing and more that if i come at you with a weak accusation it gives you an easy argument to defeat and boost your own standing

like, in some games where i'm scum someone might come up with the correct read, but they'll present an argument that is flawed in some way, so i can pick it apart logically and inevitably i win the argument in people's eyes

so i don't bother coming after good players with weak shit


on the flip side, if you're town it would be easy to misconstrue my intentions as being bad faith if i made an attack that seemed ridiculous

[unwnd]

Not trying to copout but I literally think that read is going to be like Datisi in dragons

Maybe I just suck at explaining myself, or I put too much stock in it. I feel more expectant of myself to have a stronger 'case' when the room is full of seasoned players. If this were a different game I'd be doing the thing peta said where you just vote someone you think is scummy and let it pile on. Don't feel like that works here. If luke is scum he probably has competent partners too. In that regard: I do admit it's a bit of fun to challenge myself. The thoughts I had on him aren't definitive, they're just narrative. It's what interests me as someone who just enjoys writing if that makes sense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not trying to copout but I literally think that read is going to be like Datisi in dragons

Maybe I just suck at explaining myself, or I put too much stock in it. I feel more expectant of myself to have a stronger 'case' when the room is full of seasoned players. If this were a different game I'd be doing the thing peta said where you just vote someone you think is scummy and let it pile on. Don't feel like that works here. If luke is scum he probably has competent partners too. In that regard: I do admit it's a bit of fun to challenge myself. The thoughts I had on him aren't definitive, they're just narrative. It's what interests me as someone who just enjoys writing if that makes sense.

See, this is what I want to work with you on.

I don't care how weak the case is, you think. I don't care if you think it's weirdly worded. You gave me a jumble of sentences and concepts and got RIGHT to the heart of where I was standing.

So instead of worrying about the strength of the case, just... lay on me what you do have, from feelings ot posts that bothered you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, put more simply for you Peta:

If you thought my early game was possibly basic pandering to get general town reads, why didn't you bother to engage directly to either find out if you were right or possibly find someone to work with?

i don't think i'd be able to get an accurate read on you via direct engagement, especially in the early game

anyone who's good enough at scum is going to have a pretty well trained response to pressure and they're not gonna get caught easily

Right, okay. Fair enough.

One last question:

Is it that you think an interaction like that would be pointless, or that you think it would be dangerous?

i.e: do you think it just never amounts to anything for you, or are you worried about being convinced of the wrong thing as a result?

hm, i'm less worried about being convinced of the wrong thing and more that if i come at you with a weak accusation it gives you an easy argument to defeat and boost your own standing

like, in some games where i'm scum someone might come up with the correct read, but they'll present an argument that is flawed in some way, so i can pick it apart logically and inevitably i win the argument in people's eyes

so i don't bother coming after good players with weak shit


on the flip side, if you're town it would be easy to misconstrue my intentions as being bad faith if i made an attack that seemed ridiculous

right, so if I'm town we might get into a pissing match and derail the game and if I'm scum you might hand me a weapon that I can use to bury you. Fear of Lose-Lose, got it.

I... feel a bit better about your alignment here.