HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[Radical Rat]

This is a mechanical guilty.

At least one of Elements/Gimli/Malakittens MUST be lying.

Malakittens I believe I have caught lying because the behavior is inconsistent and her claim contradicts the established information we have.

I'm not moving.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't disagree that it's hella fishy for Mala not to be able to expand on her Miller claim.

I'm just not sure that's the best place to look first.

[Killing Joke]

Rats is really hard to find as scum

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea

Null

0

Scum lean

0

Scum

Rat* [Traitor I think. I don't think shares a PT with Gimli.]
Gimli* [Noraa scum game.]
Elements

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

[Killing Joke]

Rats is really hard to find as scum

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea

Null

0

Scum lean

0

Scum

Rat* [Traitor I think. I don't think shares a PT with Gimli.]
Gimli* [Noraa scum game.]
Elements

[Radical Rat]

Explain to me why Malakittens feels the need to hide knowledge she doesn't actually have from scum, Joker.

[Radical Rat]

Or anyone, really

[Killing Joke]

Explain to me why Malakittens feels the need to hide knowledge she doesn't actually have from scum, Joker.

Or anyone, really

4.03

With 9 players alive,

it takes 5 to eliminate someone.

Day 4 ends in (expired on 2023-02-12 15:30:00).

Rats is really hard to find as scum

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea

Null

0

Scum lean

0

Scum

Rat

*

Gimli

**

Elements

*[Traitor I think. I don't think shares a PT with Gimli.]
**[Noraa scum game.]

[Radical Rat]

Sure. Because you've been right every time you make a decision and stop talking about it so far. Why would talking about and explaining things be any help to you or anyone else now?

[Killing Joke]

Sure. Because you've been right every time you make a decision and stop talking about it so far. Why would talking about and explaining things be any help to you or anyone else now?

The bolded is all pocketing:

think I'm clearing rat, after all of this.

don't like nancy's defense of mala here either. scum team will know that one is a traitor, right?

traitor also makes sense with enchant's role, cause it'll return VTs and the traitor as non-officers. that way they won't mistakenly kill their traitor.

if we have all this killing power AND a tracker AND a parity cop, then surely mala can be the traitor.

but then we still have other three scums outside of mala.

if RR is right, this is literally elim-or-lose.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

makes perfect sense to me

Gimli adapts their narrative to match yours once you shift attention onto Malakittens:

her miller claim isn't making much sense with us having nothing but vanilla cops. I know I was arguing for the other thing, but especifically the fact that she is a one-shot doesn't make sense with her also being miller in a game of vanilla cops, cause all the results will be the same (non-vanilla), than if she was just a one-shot delayed vigilante.

"I know I was arguing for the other thing..." my ass

You aren't actually reading if you think Gimli threw that out to attract my attention onto Malakittens.

Unfortunately, I reread that section and can confirm that Gimli definitely threw that out to attract your attention onto Malakittens.

You were onto Gimli before you became fixated on Malakittens claim.

A Miller that knows they are a Miller and flips as such is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Miller returns a guilty result if investigated by a Cop, "Miller" if investigated by a Role Cop, and "non-Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop. The Normal variant of Miller specifically only produces a false guilty to a Cop and Seer, so for example, a Gunsmith will see them as having no gun (unless they have a gun for some other reason).

READ THIS RADICAL RAT YOU POTATO

This is the hook point Gimli found IMO. Rats is still probably Town, just mislead.

Here's evidence:

Variations
Some moderators take the "passive guilt" concept to the point where Millers also investigate unfavorably to other roles (e.g. Gunsmith); this can be given a name like Universal Miller, although just plain "Miller" is also seen. Alternatively, specialized Millers can be created specifically for investigative roles other than Cop; for example, a Track Miller would always be seen, by a Tracker, as targeting the player that the Mafia (or whatever the "main" anti-Town faction in that game is) had attempted to kill.

Sometimes, a Miller may be unaware of their Miller state -- that part of their role is hidden from them. This is used in some Open setups (like C9++) to prevent the Miller from functioning like a Named Townie. An unaware Miller in a closed setup is sometimes considered bastardly, though.

A rather controversial twist is the Death Miller, whose alignment is shown as "Mafia" by the Moderator upon death. This has been argued and discussed in Ethics Threads as a source of distrust in the Moderator, which most people feel should not be tolerated. Thus, the Death Miller is a particularly scarcely-used role even in bastard mod games.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

For *some* reason, out of all the sections of the Miller wiki Gimli could have quoted, he quoted the only one which is 100% irrelevant: the section on guidelines for Normal variants of miller (and this is a Large Theme which means guidelines for Normal variants isn't the section we should be looking at.) Gimli could have quoted anything from the wiki and he chose the most misleading piece of information to grab Rats attention. Looking at the proper section...most other places in the wiki...you can see that Mala recieved the information required from her role PM simply by being told that she's a Miller. The way Miller is described above is basically as an umbrella role which contains many sub types. Therefore it's assumed that players are already familiar with what it means to be a Miller and Mala was given information from the

lack

of context provided, ie "you are Miller" communicates successfully that she doesn't have any of the variants described above, which is the important information when rolling Miller in Large Theme (as opposed to Normal which Gimli quoted.) Gimli didn't even quote the overview or the beginning of the Miller wiki (which would have been less work), he went to the effort of scrolling down and copy + pasting a quote from the "Normal Guidelines" section which misframes the entire discussion.

I'm not even done yet tbh, I have more to say on an adjacent topic.

I feel like this setup is just 13:3 town:scum and Rats is kind of the odd Town out. Part of the reason is that I feel scum!Flea is kind of abandoning their team right now and I'm not sure fae would do that.

The setup can be 13:3 and still allow for multiple killing TPRs, especially if scum are given something like a role blocker and Town is saddled with a miller. Here's evidence:

http://games-net.de/hosted/tggc/trash/m ... 0&do=Go%21

At 13:3, even with a collective scum hunting ability (like +10%) Town will only win about a third of a time in mountainous. Hence the addition of multiple killing roles and Town-sided black spot mechanic doesn't make the setup unbalanced, it makes it balanced. My opinion is that large theme setups are usually high swing and are too townsided, so the balance actually makes less sense to me if Mala is lying.

Reading a wiki page should not be a requirement to understand your role PM

If Aisa sent out a Role PM that didn't explain what the person's role actually does, whether it's a normal role or not, I would consider that to be, at the very least, abysmal design.

I do not believe that happened.

None of these statements have any bearing on Mala's alignment. You have to accept that if you are Town IMO. I can give you endless examples of worse situations wrt player expectation and ideas about good and bad design. I guess it seems like your own feelings about game design are causing tunnel vision wrt your ability to make a coherent assessment about Mala's alignment. I haven't read this day phase so I'm not sure of the timeline, but I could see (in a 3 person scum-team world) Gimli exploiting your opinion about the setup in order to weaken your reads.

RR is the only person left who knows what happened to Enchant.

It's actually just Gimli/Elements/Flea isn't it?

It depends on what Flea is voting right now IMO. It's definitely a possibility. I forgot Rats could just be Town who is completely mislead by Gimli. I think if either Flea or Rats are scum then this was an impressive performance from them.

I said I wanted to speak to Frog Yesterday, where is he?

I completely disagree with his meta read on Eira. All 3 of us played in a game recently as the scum team and I think Eira is playing this game similarly.

He kept promising to make cases and give thought out reads etc without actually doing it. I need Frog to come into this game.

I think it's normal that I feel somewhat demotivated after tunneling like 4 Town slots into the ground. Why do you think Eiralox is playing similar? He was lurking in the other game and is a top poster here. IIRC Eiralox mostly disappeared D2/D3 as scum but was extremely active D2/D3 in this game. His game start was different here too with the no limming, intentionally drawing negative attention to himself.

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea
Rat* [minus the current push on Mala which is alarming]

Null

Scum lean

Scum

Gimli* [I believe Gimli has a similar temperament to Noraa and it shows in his scum range. I also believe that andres ISO is the worst part of the Gimli slot.]
Elements

~Joker

@Mala

You aren't second guessing on Gimli? I've only seen one player before with this kind of scum range (Noraa.) I still think it's him I'm just a little bit surprised.

No I'm arguing that Mala explicitly confirmed that she was told she's a miller, but not told what a miller is or how it works in the setup, and I don't believe that because every aspect of everyone else's role has an explanation

First of all, by your own admission now no one has caught Mala "lying", you are simply suggesting a theory--highly unlikely to be true-- in which she

might

be lying.

This is a really terrible argument in so many ways it's difficult for me to form words together. Unlike miller, which is in the wiki, the other roles which flipped are unique to the setup and require explanation. From a design standpoint there was also probably more intrinsic interest in working out those unique roles overall and it makes sense there are more words there as a byproduct.

This is reminding me of KTANE where one player was a "simple doctor" and another player was "daredevil innocent child." I was convinced "daredevil innocent child" was a made up claim because *reasons*. People design setups in ways that unintentionally clash with player expectations all the time.

I have more things I can say. Like this:

I am a Miller, but I also have one shot role.
I have one shot delayed vig.

I’m the asshole who shot enchant.

I was in between him or gimli, but in the end I picked enchant because

I had something bugging me in the way he was engaging with me.

you shot him on n2.

there was something about enchant bugging you in the way he was engaging with you on d1-d2? let's check that...

this is all the interaction between mala and enchant that I could find:

OoS sorry this game started at a really bad time.

I’ll be able to catch up definitely tmrw at work.

What officer you are

Did mala claim officer name

This is a sign to me that Mala is Town because Enchant is going after her slot. This doesn't look like distancing to me because Mala isn't playing along.

Are you seriously arguing that Mala not revealing the vig aspect of their role is AntiTown? That's like accusing a TPR of lying because they didn't claim their role on D1, except somehow you have chosen an even worse argument because in this situation the TPR you're accusing of lying has already shot scum. I don't see how this makes any sense to you and I don't believe you really think so.

~Joker

That's a terrible read and if you're Town then IDK what to say, you're simply pushing tinfoil garbage. It looks to me like you're peddling some last ditch BS intentionally to try and keep Gimli/Elements alive. If you're Town then give yourself some air because you're really deep in your own rabbit hole right now.

~Joker

[Flea The Magician]

I'm signing out you do whatever you want

bella/KJ/RR is my final solve

gl to town you're gonna need it

.

What is your read on Flea?

well hi

I think he is scum if you're not. hasn't done anything the whole game and keeps not doing anything this gameday.

In catch up mode because 10+ pages appeared and apparently despite the ongoing shit and that i am limited access currently people still feel the need to be like "flea has done nothing" as well as misgendering me.

https://my.pronouns.page/@FleaTheMagician
I am going to start assuming it's hostile from this point.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, you did say all of those things.

And I have addressed them. Gimli deflecting onto the reason I'm accusing him doesn't make sense. Even if you don't accept my idea that a role PM should include information about the role, Mala's bit about trying to hide information from scum conflicts her statement that there is no information to hide (that's the part you won't address). You saying Mala claiming the vig D1 would be anti-Town is irrelevant because I never argued she should have.

So I'll reiterate. Why would someone who does not have information pretend that they do and argue that nonexistent information should stay hidden?

[Killing Joke]

I didn't fall for their tricks, Flea, I kept you in the Town lean category where you belong.

Yes, you did say all of those things.

And I have addressed them...

I spit out my decaf coffee IRL. You are funny, Rat, I hope to roll Town with you one day.

[Flea The Magician]

Spoiler: offensive language

This is probably the worst Town game I've played as far as reads go.

After I saw the flips

I spazzed out

and once I calmed down I realized the only logical explanation is that Gimli is playing a very lively scum game which had me completely snowed. Sorry I didn't listen to you earlier Mala.

Elements is...still scum unless I'm missing something. I'm fine voting out Gimli and Elements in any order.

~Joker

PEdit

I see Mala thinks Elements is Town for some reason I don't understand so VOTE: Gimli

Please refrain from using offensive language.

Spoiler: genuine question/confusion, not game-related

How is that offensive? I've never heard of that phrase being problematic at all before, and can't imagine who would be targeted by it...

I'm not arguing, I don't think you'd just make it up, but it's in my vocabulary too and I want to know why it's wrong.

It Is incredibly offensive to disabled folk in the UK and I appriciate the mods step in on that one.

This is also acting as a bookmark of where i need to keep reading from.

[Radical Rat]

Alright then, what didn't I cover? Please don't just quote wall me again, be specific.

I know this is a somewhat unintuitive push. If I'm wrong I don't want to follow through on it, so I'd like you to show me where my mistake is. If I'm right though, I obviously need to convince you.

And I get that you think I'm scum right now, but this is helpful for anyone else who's confused also.

[Eiralox]

His game start was different here too with the no limming, intentionally drawing negative attention to himself.

I very much believed no-execution was the best move with Black Spot mechanic, but knew from the start that that's not a vote that gains traction here. If I knew crew had such killing power I'd have pushed harder for it, but probably still would have failed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joker coming in and confirming what I believe is just good. I am no longer sus of Killing Joke.

No way team is: BBT/Killing Joke/Mala.
Firstly: No counterclaim to Black Spot from BBT, and no other mechanistic indication that BBt might be scum with Black Spot, and no one else claimed to kill Pasnger... I don't think scum is gonna have a night kill. Joker mentioning both a traitor and a special ability for scum D1 gives me pause here, everything else doesn't.

Secondly: No way traitor! Mala kills enchant here, like, what even is that reasoning Gimli? All I have to say.

Thirdly: Eh yeah D4 Killing Joke seems to have their head in things again.

which leaves bella. They're wholesome here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So yeah I'm just gonna relax from here on out. I vastly prefer Elements as the flip but if ya'll wanna go Gimli or Flea, whatever. I think I've kinda said my say and talked far too much here, so Eira out for some time.

[Gimli]

RR, you're trying to convince scum KJ here. They're close to parity and eliminating me ends the game. Since eira will never stop tunneling me and will never vote mala over me, and I think eira is actually town, this is game over

It's too bad we took so long to find each other and clear each other

[Gimli]

Oh.

Eiralox is scum.

It's eira/KJ/mala

[Eiralox]

Gimli............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Just why?

[Gimli]

Flea I'm sorry for the pronouns, don't think it's on purpose, I have never met anyone that's a faer before, I don't know how to write these things, English isn't my first language, and remembering your pronouns while being attacked by the entire game is something hard.

If you're town you need to understand where me and rat are going with this

[Eiralox]

Going down into the briny depths, way-hay!

[Gimli]

Gimli............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Just why?

It's hard to make sense of this game if you're not scum

I have a hard time seeing four of them left, but if I'm clearing BBT and RR, I'm left with the tiny est pool. Like if you're town, the scum team is exactly mala/Elly/KJ/flea???

That would mean two goons?

So eh

[Gimli]

If one of them is a traitor it makes sense for it to be two goons

[Eiralox]

What I mean is, why are you still trying? Just vote Elements with me, let's get the mutineers and end this!

[Gimli]

Rats is really hard to find as scum

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea

Null

0

Scum lean

0

Scum

Rat* [Traitor I think. I don't think shares a PT with Gimli.]
Gimli* [Noraa scum game.]
Elements

Joker's Poe is as insanely bad as Nancy's. It's a hydra that refuses to pretend they're solving. There's only two scumreads here! And the town pile must contain scum if you think there's a traitor since there's six people in the town pile. Lol.

What do you do when you want to protect all your scumbuddies at emil-or-lose, and pocket the remaining townies? You do a reads list that looks bonkers like this.

If I'm moving off of mala it's on KJ