HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[Radical Rat]

If I'm wrong, I will take full responsibility for the mislim, but this Needs to happen. I am not going to let caught scum get away while we chase after maybe-but-increasingly-unlikely scum.

[Eiralox]

Nah. Ya'll throwing pebbles at a whale at this point: Utterly pointless.

Mala is LOCKTOWN. BBT is LOCKTOWN.

Ya'll chose the wrong target to try and mis-elim here. I'm getting ready for a Gimli vote here.

[Radical Rat]

Then explain the contradiction in Mala's posts. Tell me why I'm wrong not just that I'm wrong.

[Killing Joke]

Gimli, re-hashing points I've already introduced into the narrative Day 2-3ish really isn't doing anything for you. Amazing how you're only now talking bout the traitor, now that ya'll so desperate to eke out a mis-elim here.

If there's a traitor here, it's Rad Rat. Their behavior today would affirm it, they know if even one of ya'll go down they're done for as well. If they're the traitor, they're just as cornered as ya'll and hoping desperately than one or more of five fools are gonna do the dumb thing here(If it's 5/4, which I'm more and more prone to believe it is as this circus progresses).

See, problem is, I think crew really have a handle on things here and won't be making the same mistake for the fourth time.

I’m really struggling with RR right now, I can still see the possibility of them just being wrong town who’s getting stuck in a really bad mech argument but I admit my confidence on that has definitely wained somewhat and Joker made a brilliant post about Mala:

Spoiler:

Sure. Because you've been right every time you make a decision and stop talking about it so far. Why would talking about and explaining things be any help to you or anyone else now?

The bolded is all pocketing:

think I'm clearing rat, after all of this.

don't like nancy's defense of mala here either. scum team will know that one is a traitor, right?

traitor also makes sense with enchant's role, cause it'll return VTs and the traitor as non-officers. that way they won't mistakenly kill their traitor.

if we have all this killing power AND a tracker AND a parity cop, then surely mala can be the traitor.

but then we still have other three scums outside of mala.

if RR is right, this is literally elim-or-lose.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

makes perfect sense to me

Gimli adapts their narrative to match yours once you shift attention onto Malakittens:

her miller claim isn't making much sense with us having nothing but vanilla cops. I know I was arguing for the other thing, but especifically the fact that she is a one-shot doesn't make sense with her also being miller in a game of vanilla cops, cause all the results will be the same (non-vanilla), than if she was just a one-shot delayed vigilante.

"I know I was arguing for the other thing..." my ass

You aren't actually reading if you think Gimli threw that out to attract my attention onto Malakittens.

Unfortunately, I reread that section and can confirm that Gimli definitely threw that out to attract your attention onto Malakittens.

You were onto Gimli before you became fixated on Malakittens claim.

A Miller that knows they are a Miller and flips as such is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Miller returns a guilty result if investigated by a Cop, "Miller" if investigated by a Role Cop, and "non-Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop. The Normal variant of Miller specifically only produces a false guilty to a Cop and Seer, so for example, a Gunsmith will see them as having no gun (unless they have a gun for some other reason).

READ THIS RADICAL RAT YOU POTATO

This is the hook point Gimli found IMO. Rats is still probably Town, just mislead.

Here's evidence:

Variations
Some moderators take the "passive guilt" concept to the point where Millers also investigate unfavorably to other roles (e.g. Gunsmith); this can be given a name like Universal Miller, although just plain "Miller" is also seen. Alternatively, specialized Millers can be created specifically for investigative roles other than Cop; for example, a Track Miller would always be seen, by a Tracker, as targeting the player that the Mafia (or whatever the "main" anti-Town faction in that game is) had attempted to kill.

Sometimes, a Miller may be unaware of their Miller state -- that part of their role is hidden from them. This is used in some Open setups (like C9++) to prevent the Miller from functioning like a Named Townie. An unaware Miller in a closed setup is sometimes considered bastardly, though.

A rather controversial twist is the Death Miller, whose alignment is shown as "Mafia" by the Moderator upon death. This has been argued and discussed in Ethics Threads as a source of distrust in the Moderator, which most people feel should not be tolerated. Thus, the Death Miller is a particularly scarcely-used role even in bastard mod games.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

For *some* reason, out of all the sections of the Miller wiki Gimli could have quoted, he quoted the only one which is 100% irrelevant: the section on guidelines for Normal variants of miller (and this is a Large Theme which means guidelines for Normal variants isn't the section we should be looking at.) Gimli could have quoted anything from the wiki and he chose the most misleading piece of information to grab Rats attention. Looking at the proper section...most other places in the wiki...you can see that Mala recieved the information required from her role PM simply by being told that she's a Miller. The way Miller is described above is basically as an umbrella role which contains many sub types. Therefore it's assumed that players are already familiar with what it means to be a Miller and Mala was given information from the

lack

of context provided, ie "you are Miller" communicates successfully that she doesn't have any of the variants described above, which is the important information when rolling Miller in Large Theme (as opposed to Normal which Gimli quoted.) Gimli didn't even quote the overview or the beginning of the Miller wiki (which would have been less work), he went to the effort of scrolling down and copy + pasting a quote from the "Normal Guidelines" section which misframes the entire discussion.

I'm not even done yet tbh, I have more to say on an adjacent topic.

I feel like this setup is just 13:3 town:scum and Rats is kind of the odd Town out. Part of the reason is that I feel scum!Flea is kind of abandoning their team right now and I'm not sure fae would do that.

The setup can be 13:3 and still allow for multiple killing TPRs, especially if scum are given something like a role blocker and Town is saddled with a miller. Here's evidence:

http://games-net.de/hosted/tggc/trash/m ... 0&do=Go%21

At 13:3, even with a collective scum hunting ability (like +10%) Town will only win about a third of a time in mountainous. Hence the addition of multiple killing roles and Town-sided black spot mechanic doesn't make the setup unbalanced, it makes it balanced. My opinion is that large theme setups are usually high swing and are too townsided, so the balance actually makes less sense to me if Mala is lying.

Reading a wiki page should not be a requirement to understand your role PM

If Aisa sent out a Role PM that didn't explain what the person's role actually does, whether it's a normal role or not, I would consider that to be, at the very least, abysmal design.

I do not believe that happened.

None of these statements have any bearing on Mala's alignment. You have to accept that if you are Town IMO. I can give you endless examples of worse situations wrt player expectation and ideas about good and bad design. I guess it seems like your own feelings about game design are causing tunnel vision wrt your ability to make a coherent assessment about Mala's alignment. I haven't read this day phase so I'm not sure of the timeline, but I could see (in a 3 person scum-team world) Gimli exploiting your opinion about the setup in order to weaken your reads.

RR is the only person left who knows what happened to Enchant.

It's actually just Gimli/Elements/Flea isn't it?

It depends on what Flea is voting right now IMO. It's definitely a possibility. I forgot Rats could just be Town who is completely mislead by Gimli. I think if either Flea or Rats are scum then this was an impressive performance from them.

I said I wanted to speak to Frog Yesterday, where is he?

I completely disagree with his meta read on Eira. All 3 of us played in a game recently as the scum team and I think Eira is playing this game similarly.

He kept promising to make cases and give thought out reads etc without actually doing it. I need Frog to come into this game.

I think it's normal that I feel somewhat demotivated after tunneling like 4 Town slots into the ground. Why do you think Eiralox is playing similar? He was lurking in the other game and is a top poster here. IIRC Eiralox mostly disappeared D2/D3 as scum but was extremely active D2/D3 in this game. His game start was different here too with the no limming, intentionally drawing negative attention to himself.

My reads overall:

Town (no particular order here)

KJ
Eiralox
Mala
Bella
BBT

Town lean

Flea
Rat* [minus the current push on Mala which is alarming]

Null

Scum lean

Scum

Gimli* [I believe Gimli has a similar temperament to Noraa and it shows in his scum range. I also believe that andres ISO is the worst part of the Gimli slot.]
Elements

~Joker

@Mala

You aren't second guessing on Gimli? I've only seen one player before with this kind of scum range (Noraa.) I still think it's him I'm just a little bit surprised.

No I'm arguing that Mala explicitly confirmed that she was told she's a miller, but not told what a miller is or how it works in the setup, and I don't believe that because every aspect of everyone else's role has an explanation

First of all, by your own admission now no one has caught Mala "lying", you are simply suggesting a theory--highly unlikely to be true-- in which she

might

be lying.

This is a really terrible argument in so many ways it's difficult for me to form words together. Unlike miller, which is in the wiki, the other roles which flipped are unique to the setup and require explanation. From a design standpoint there was also probably more intrinsic interest in working out those unique roles overall and it makes sense there are more words there as a byproduct.

This is reminding me of KTANE where one player was a "simple doctor" and another player was "daredevil innocent child." I was convinced "daredevil innocent child" was a made up claim because *reasons*. People design setups in ways that unintentionally clash with player expectations all the time.

I have more things I can say. Like this:

I am a Miller, but I also have one shot role.
I have one shot delayed vig.

I’m the asshole who shot enchant.

I was in between him or gimli, but in the end I picked enchant because

I had something bugging me in the way he was engaging with me.

you shot him on n2.

there was something about enchant bugging you in the way he was engaging with you on d1-d2? let's check that...

this is all the interaction between mala and enchant that I could find:

OoS sorry this game started at a really bad time.

I’ll be able to catch up definitely tmrw at work.

What officer you are

Did mala claim officer name

This is a sign to me that Mala is Town because Enchant is going after her slot. This doesn't look like distancing to me because Mala isn't playing along.

Are you seriously arguing that Mala not revealing the vig aspect of their role is AntiTown? That's like accusing a TPR of lying because they didn't claim their role on D1, except somehow you have chosen an even worse argument because in this situation the TPR you're accusing of lying has already shot scum. I don't see how this makes any sense to you and I don't believe you really think so.

~Joker

That's a terrible read and if you're Town then IDK what to say, you're simply pushing tinfoil garbage. It looks to me like you're peddling some last ditch BS intentionally to try and keep Gimli/Elements alive. If you're Town then give yourself some air because you're really deep in your own rabbit hole right now.

~Joker

Re-quoted because of Joker’s compelling argument about why Mala and Enchant make no sense as buddies.

First of all, by your own admission now no one has caught Mala "lying", you are simply suggesting a theory--highly unlikely to be true-- in which she might be lying.

This is a really terrible argument in so many ways it's difficult for me to form words together. Unlike miller, which is in the wiki, the other roles which flipped are unique to the setup and require explanation. From a design standpoint there was also probably more intrinsic interest in working out those unique roles overall and it makes sense there are more words there as a byproduct.

This is reminding me of KTANE where one player was a "simple doctor" and another player was "daredevil innocent child." I was convinced "daredevil innocent child" was a made up claim because *reasons*. People design setups in ways that unintentionally clash with player expectations all the time.

I have more things I can say. Like this:

Gimli wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:47 pm

Malakittens wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:39 pm

I am a Miller, but I also have one shot role.
I have one shot delayed vig.

I’m the asshole who shot enchant.

I was in between him or gimli, but in the end I picked enchant because I had something bugging me in the way he was engaging with me.


you shot him on n2.

there was something about enchant bugging you in the way he was engaging with you on d1-d2? let's check that...

this is all the interaction between mala and enchant that I could find:

Enchant wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:21 pm

Malakittens wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:20 pm
OoS sorry this game started at a really bad time.

I’ll be able to catch up definitely tmrw at work.


What officer you are

Enchant wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:11 pm

Did mala claim officer name

This is a sign to me that Mala is Town because Enchant is going after her slot. This doesn't look like distancing to me because Mala isn't playing along.

I totally agree with Joker here, it makes absolutely no sense for Enchant to be rolefishing his buddy Mala.

~Harley

[Radical Rat]

You even said earlier that Mala/Elements makes sense. Why is Mala lockdown now?

[Eiralox]

Rat is the traitor. I still see no way Flea is crew.

We are 4/5 and the mutineers are just DESPERATE to insta-win at this point.

Not gonna happen krakken!

[Radical Rat]

I recognize I made the argument earlier of scum making mistakes, but even so I have to ask...

If I'm scum here why do I pick the absolute hardest possible mislim to try to sell people?

[Eiralox]

You even said earlier that Mala/Elements makes sense. Why is Mala lockdown now?

See, I didn't. Being scum, you're juist a lazy reader: I said it makes sense in Gimli's fantasy world.

@Bellaphant:

@MalaKittens:

You are the two people I really want to hear from here, hear what ya'll think, before I vote Gimli. I'm happier on Elements but seeing the utter desperation here I'm starting to feel I should just end this and get on with the slog.

[Killing Joke]

Malakittens has been caught in a lie, and I have yet to see an actual substantive refutation to that.

It is theoretically still possible she's scum with either or both of Elements/Gimli, but Malakittens is the only one who has been blatantly caught lying about her claim.

I get it, she shot Enchant and that makes people want to townread her. But she has been caught actively lying, and not in a way that makes any sense at all for Town to do.

This is the way it must be. Resolve the caught scum first, figure the rest out later.

Explain to me WHERE Mala actively LIED because I’m not seeing it.

~H

[Eiralox]

Then explain the contradiction in Mala's posts. Tell me why I'm wrong not just that I'm wrong.

My answer is very, very simple: This game isn't Normal. If you killed Enchant I'd be locktowning you just as hard. Scum Mala doesn't kill Enchant, peroid, and ya'll hoping that can even make sense as an mis-elim target is so absurd I can't even laugh.

And ya'll not targeting Flea confirms to me that it's 5/4.

Honestly, ya'll woulda been smarter trying to to mis-elim me here!

[Radical Rat]

If anyone at all can come up with a reasonable explanation for Mala contradicting herself about her role, I'll back off.

But so far none of you have even bothered trying, because Enchant making the most milquetoast throwaway question ever with zero follow through counts as "couldn't be distancing"

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

[Eiralox]

@Harley: yeah Radical Rat really is looking very very bad here, they know the jig's up.

I think I might vote Gimli in like...... some hours time, just to move things along at this point. It's obvious who the crew are, who the mutineers are, the mutineers are obviously trying to prevent us from winning and yeah.

Later : )

[Radical Rat]

Eiralox, I swear to God if you're Town I... Hope you have a very nice day regardless, but please think about this better.

[Eiralox]

If anyone at all can come up with a reasonable explanation for Mala contradicting herself about her role, I'll back off.

But so far none of you have even bothered trying, because Enchant making the most milquetoast throwaway question ever with zero follow through counts as "couldn't be distancing"

Rad Rat, honestly, I'm telling you the same I told Gimli: Why even try? If you just remained silent today you'd honestly still be sitting in my crew pile after I moved you there D3.

All you've done know is confirm to me that, yes, Joker was likely absolutely right on you from the start, just as they were on Elements and Flea the Magician.

[Killing Joke]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

I have read many many games where town “lies” exactly like this. I was an informed town rb in some game but I only claimed the informed part because I didn’t want to get nk’d, so no, not damning. I will literally bet the game on you being wrong here.

~H

[Eiralox]

Eiralox, I swear to God if you're Town I... Hope you have a very nice day regardless, but please think about this better.

Nah. I'm done thinking.

Elements has lied from Day 2. So. You telling me the only person who's managed to flip scum this game is scum is like...... you don't see how you're not gaining this mis-elim, aren't you?

If ya'll focused on tunneling me or Killing Joke ya'll might have stood a chance, especially as BBT was sus of us both this day.

But I'm tired hearing my own voice.

I'd like to hear from Bella and MalaKittens, whenever, then I'm just voting Gimli.

[Radical Rat]

You're not listening to me Harley.

I don't care that she didn't claim the killing part.

I care that she acted as though she had information, then claimed there was no information. THAT'S the contradiction.

[Elements]

It felt like you did believe it before?

when?

[Radical Rat]

Eiralox, I swear to God if you're Town I... Hope you have a very nice day regardless, but please think about this better.

Nah. I'm done thinking.

Elements has lied from Day 2. So. You telling me the only person who's managed to flip scum this game is scum is like...... you don't see how you're not gaining this mis-elim, aren't you?

If ya'll focused on tunneling me or Killing Joke ya'll might have stood a chance, especially as BBT was sus of us both this day.

But I'm tired hearing my own voice.

I'd like to hear from Bella and MalaKittens, whenever, then I'm just voting Gimli.

And where is your evidence that Elements lied? You haven't said anything other than "it could be faked" this whole time. And you're right! It could be!
But I HAVE EVIDENCE Malakittens did like. That takes priority over a maybe.

[Eiralox]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

[Killing Joke]

You're not listening to me Harley.

I don't care that she didn't claim the killing part.

I care that she acted as though she had information, then claimed there was no information. THAT'S the contradiction.

Why would she shoot her important scum pr buddy here? She’d be pretty much gamethrowing by doing that. The best argument you can possess have is she’s a traitor because what scum in their right mind shoots their role cop buddy like ever? Even in Pokemon Large Theme, Pooky vigged goon!Gypyx after she gave consent in the scum pt and knowing Enchant meta, I don’t ever see him agreeing to that. Not scum theatre and if you’re town here @RR, you need to please trust me on this.

~H

[Radical Rat]

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

[Killing Joke]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Mala’s best move if scum would be to shoot us. I understand why you disagreed with that @RR but my reasoning is that she’d very easily have been able to get away with that because why would she shoot the player with the strongest tr on her?

~H