i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[xyzzy]

votecount 5.02

pork chop sandwiches

5 players not voting (Summon The Phoenix, Not_Mafia, Prince of Paterson, KittyTacky, KittyTacky)

with 5 votes, it takes 3 to eliminate.

mod notes: what a useful votecount. so full of previously undocumented voting data

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Kitty Tacky

I’ve reached my decision

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My first instinct on gut was to tell you to unvote because of wanting to discuss more but

Prince and I cannot both be scum here and Kitty's the one who could hammer from this position so this vote is probably fine?

Can you elucidate for me how you came to this decision, NM?

[Prince of Paterson]

Quiet Owl died DAY 4. With a FLIPPED ROLE.

Not possible.

Neither is Blanco.

Once again we remain confirmed town.

OK. If one of Quiet Owl's redacted jack of all trades abilities was "send a message to someone who is still alive after your death", then how is that impossible? They would presumably not get added to the dead thread, and would probably be able to predict that they had some power after death, and would figure out to use it. I think it's unlikely that the message would arrive in the format that it did in this case, but it's possible.

We have no idea what bianco's role was, except that he said something would happen after his death. We don't know how long after. Nothing seemed to happen immediately. Maybe he was the cause of phase ???. I don't know. I think that in any case, saying "this is IMPOSSIBLE" is by definition false because the game is bastard.

[Prince of Paterson]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

There is no reason for me as scum to come into this day phase, while being the only confident townread of yours, and do this. If I were scum I could have easily gotten an elimination on Not_Mafia or KittyTacky.

I'm also not pushing you. I doubt I would vote for you. I believe I have an obligation to share the message that I received.

The fact that there were two messages (received in the same PM, but clearly marked as separate) is part of what made me doubt that this is just a scum mailman or something messing with me. That would only arrive as one message. This seems to be a clearly defined power where the message comes in two parts. That makes it less easy for me to dismiss it as clearly faked by scum.

[Not_Mafia]

My first instinct on gut was to tell you to unvote because of wanting to discuss more but

Prince and I cannot both be scum here and Kitty's the one who could hammer from this position so this vote is probably fine?

Can you elucidate for me how you came to this decision, NM?

Process of elimination, you Uber-lurk as scum and I don’t think the other player who has an invention or something is scum faking it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

There is no reason for me as scum to come into this day phase, while being the only confident townread of yours, and do this. If I were scum I could have easily gotten an elimination on Not_Mafia or KittyTacky.

I'm also not pushing you. I doubt I would vote for you. I believe I have an obligation to share the message that I received.

The fact that there were two messages (received in the same PM, but clearly marked as separate) is part of what made me doubt that this is just a scum mailman or something messing with me. That would only arrive as one message. This seems to be a clearly defined power where the message comes in two parts. That makes it less easy for me to dismiss it as clearly faked by scum.

I get your obligation if you are actually town, but the fact is you're sitting here in an ELO situation and instead of talking to me about who you think is scum between Kitty and NM you're grilling me on a thing you received as two different messages that no living player as of last night could have done without being scum.

And your argument is that a dead player could have sent it. Well, QO made 0 mention to this ability and probably would have claimed it while they were alive, don't you think? I think that QO as a townie would 100% have claimed it, so when a townie GOT THAT MESSAGE they would know who it was from.

So not QO.

And then Bianco, why didn't they use it in days before this? And if it's just them, why is it two split messages?

Let's say I trust you, because I do or at least I want to believe my read on you was correct. Let's say you're telling the truth, and let's then argue for the sake of argument it isn't NM or KT (even though KT has claimed multitasking and could have theoretically sent 2 different messages with 2 different abilities and still killed so that seems to explain it being 2 messages?)

The only other option would be something related to the ??? phase right? Like 3 scum died out of NOWHERE and no mechanic explains it. Maybe it's a game mechanic then, and in exchange for suddenly being dead on day 4 they get to each send a message to influence the game anonymously.

So they know I see you as town and if they send this to you they can try and make a fake story to tell us both down this river.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, I am asking you in a Bastard game, in ELO, to trust your eyes and your reads.

It's one of NM or KT at this point. I want them to cross vote and I want to discuss it with you, because right now I'm leaning KT.

[Summon The Phoenix]

I think Not_Mafia is still my top suspect after that Lycanfire hammer, the delay in explaining what that ability was (until after Enchant flipped), and the delayed claim of Naive Cop after Prince claimed Town Strongman (both useless roles). KittyTacky being this Vendor role is making me think that he isn't Mafia, because why would you give Mafia 2 Vendors and an Inventor?

-Summon

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ah we're of different minds then?

Talk to me about why you think KT is town on play Summon.

[Summon The Phoenix]

Ah we're of different minds then?

Talk to me about why you think KT is town on play Summon.

I'm not saying that, and if this was mountainous I'd be thinking differently. My argument is that KT is town on claim (or at least not Mafia).

-Summon

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ah we're of different minds then?

Talk to me about why you think KT is town on play Summon.

I'm not saying that, and if this was mountainous I'd be thinking differently. My argument is that KT is town on claim (or at least

not Mafia

).

-Summon

[Prince of Paterson]

And your argument is that a dead player could have sent it. Well, QO made 0 mention to this ability and probably would have claimed it while they were alive, don't you think? I think that QO as a townie would 100% have claimed it, so when a townie GOT THAT MESSAGE they would know who it was from.

So not QO.

And then Bianco, why didn't they use it in days before this? And if it's just them, why is it two split messages?

Let's say I trust you, because I do or at least I want to believe my read on you was correct. Let's say you're telling the truth, and let's then argue for the sake of argument it isn't NM or KT (even though KT has claimed multitasking and could have theoretically sent 2 different messages with 2 different abilities and still killed so that seems to explain it being 2 messages?)

The only other option would be something related to the ??? phase right? Like 3 scum died out of NOWHERE and no mechanic explains it. Maybe it's a game mechanic then, and in exchange for suddenly being dead on day 4 they get to each send a message to influence the game anonymously.

So they know I see you as town and if they send this to you they can try and make a fake story to tell us both down this river.

Owl fullclaimed. They had a jack of all trades power, but didn't know what powers they had. They just had to guess actions and hope they worked. They would not have known that they had this power until they died and weren't added to the dead thread.

Scum sending the message through some unknown mechanic is definitely a possibility and probably more likely.

[Prince of Paterson]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

The Usurper phrasing specifically is what made me question things. I don't think you'd be standard mafia. If you're scum then it's third party and your slot needed to kill the mafia godfather and be the last one remaining.

As for the other two, I've read KittyTacky as town by play, but it's believable that he could be a serial killer, since that often allows one to play as uninformed. I think Not_Mafia does have some mafia team equity with his hammer to save Ranger, even if Ranger may have genuinely not wanted him to.

I lean towards KittyTacky as well. I think him falling off in presence as the game has progressed is not a good sign.

[Prince of Paterson]

Having two vendors on the mafia team does seem unlikely, and the way that the claims played out felt like Kitty was not teamed with MathBlade. So I agree with Summon's point that Kitty, if scum, is more likely to be serial killer. If there is 1 serial killer and 1 mafia remaining, town never wins here regardless of what we do, correct?

[Summon The Phoenix]

So Kitty has double vote...?

It's not in my role? What the fuck?

Someone doublevoterized me but I didn't get any message? Or is it just a mod error.

I don't think whoever doublevoterized me is town anyhow. I'd think a town doublevoterizer would have given the power to someone who isn't a dumb fuck.

SO probably scum counting on me doing a Kitty moment.

These posts do seem like a genuine reaction to me.

Multitasking what precisely. They are a vendor with a one shot. They can multi task ONCE. Why give them that modifyer?

I can vend a fruit or a vegetable depending on the day evenness BUT in addition to that I can also give out meat at any time, but once. What's why multitasking.

If I was an activated doublevoter I'd have claimed it.

I sent to Titus again like asked but they died.

The only thing that's concerning to me is the lack of any reads in these posts, or even an idea of what KT is thinking.

-Summon

[Summon The Phoenix]

Having two vendors on the mafia team does seem unlikely, and the way that the claims played out felt like Kitty was not teamed with MathBlade. So I agree with Summon's point that Kitty, if scum, is more likely to be serial killer. If there is 1 serial killer and 1 mafia remaining, town never wins here regardless of what we do, correct?

If we deem that to be the most likely scenario, the best option would possibly be to no lim, hoping for a crosskill. But obviously that ignores any Bulletproof/Ascetic abilities scum may have, and it relies on them killing each other exactly.

So it's practical to assume 1 scum left.

-Summon

[Prince of Paterson]

A thought I had is that KittyTacky sent to Ranger on night 2. Ranger was scum. We don't have any town confirmation that KittyTacky does actually send what he says he does on even-numberered nights.

[furtiveglance]

A thought I had is that KittyTacky sent to Ranger on night 2. Ranger was scum. We don't have any town confirmation that KittyTacky does actually send what he says he does on even-numberered nights.

That's true, but if I recall correctly, Ranger denied having something that KT gave her at some point. I'm wondering why S/S wouldn't just say that it arrived fine? It's possible that it actually didn't reach Ranger in either world, but it seems slightly anti-associative to me.

-Summon

[furtiveglance]

altslip noooooooo

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly, Kitty if evil is probably group scum not SK.

The one who is SK if an SK exists is NM. To be quite honest.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

A thought I had is that KittyTacky sent to Ranger on night 2. Ranger was scum. We don't have any town confirmation that KittyTacky does actually send what he says he does on even-numberered nights.

This is really possible.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

The Usurper phrasing specifically is what made me question things. I don't think you'd be standard mafia. If you're scum then it's third party and your slot needed to kill the mafia godfather and be the last one remaining.

As for the other two, I've read KittyTacky as town by play, but it's believable that he could be a serial killer, since that often allows one to play as uninformed. I think Not_Mafia does have some mafia team equity with his hammer to save Ranger, even if Ranger may have genuinely not wanted him to.

I lean towards KittyTacky as well. I think him falling off in presence as the game has progressed is not a good sign.

That isn't what Usurper does.

Usurper only needs the Godfather to die prior to the end of the game or before the Usurper does. Not be the last survivor.

So my chasing Ranger would have been strictly bad for us if scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper