i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Titus

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I was hoping to get backup backup backup vigilante

but instead I got a rather mundane role

[Cat Scratch Fever]

hello do you agree with gamma that andree is town?

They just asked about why it wouldn't be good to massclaim early which seems a bit redundant given that it's never a good idea. Unless I misread

So Gamma could be right, but too meaningless to get my approval

there were things about it specific to this game considering there was specific warning given. but, i would agree it doesn't indicate town. mech talk is really easy to do regardless of allignment.

It seems like you both disagree with gamma's read. Does that impact your reads on her?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk

40 pings as a bit towny to me, so i don't disagree with the read

but i also think verbalizing.a town read so early has a lot of pocket potential

[Cat Scratch Fever]

40? I kind of liked how it said it wanted to gauge reactions to the question in real time, and dropped the matter as a dead end when the responses weren't engaging the question instead of continuing to encourage mech spec

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh man Frogster did you roll scum? You came in swinging with 4 scumreads and then sort of backed down from 2 of them almost right away

Mmm this pings me as IIoA and maybe out of character for csf because town!csf has townread me before for doing the same thing.

IIoA... Bruh

[Cat Scratch Fever]

If you have done something similar, i genuinely do not recall

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You just dropped your reads like less than 1 page later. It shows that you didn't really believe in those reads

I doubt you did that in LOST

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What made you reconsider lycanfire?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think that's a really negative way to frame that. I can't expect all of my page 3 reads to be correct

All right, that's probably fair

I also forgot you did a 180 on Malcolm in LOST kind of early

Tbh i feel like 86 was a scummy way to respond, but eh, admittedly i have some bop on your slot

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I can get behind this vote though

VOTE: HighPrincessErinys

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Tbh i feel like 86 was a scummy way to respond, but eh

...why?

you kind of just reflexively sussed me, and the reason behind it felt kind of shallow. like maybe I townread you for doing something in one game, but contexts are usually different
And I still maintain it's not IIoA lol

admittedly i have some bop on your slot

Buttering up?

And stuff like this just makes me go 'bruh'

[Cat Scratch Fever]

{Save The Dragons}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, High PrincessErinys, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Frogsterking, kitten around, Ythan, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P1.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I didn't post one page 1?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Csf can you post a reads list?

I have Lycanfire, tris, and maybe andree on the town side of null

I don't really have any scumreads. Maybe HPE for popping in and saying something irrelevant

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah? I literally just went down the playerlist

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why to both of those reads?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Morning Tweet is town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This feels lightly scummy. Are you saying town!frog wouldn't be scumreading you (like burden of proof)? To me it seems too early to believe that

no, it was more like he immediately shut down my line of thought without seeing if there was more to it than "he flipped his read," since I think changing your reads can either be towny or scummy depending on the situation.

But at the same time, 86 could also conceivably come from Town!Frogs because I have been quick to read him right in the past.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Was your Gamma vote serious, MT?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's funny because Frogster's read change on you (Gamma) is actually one I can track

I kinda think he's town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

hey, ythan. what do you think of the others voting frog

obligatory what do you think of frog and the wagon

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Using reason will not usually help you correctly determine frog's alignment ime

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I agree. Save the dragons can be town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i do NOT like the look of cat scratch fever. post 85 reminds me of me when i'm playing scum, false bravado to try and look towny.

Can you bold the words in 85 that were false bravado?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

'Bruh'..

My wording was probably imprecise. To be clear, the reasoning you use to push people and how you arrive at reads can be unusual, which makes you liable to be read as scummy. I don't think the reason behind Ythan's vote, for instance, is an actual scum tell for you.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Lol

How good are you at feigning full solving the game as scum, as well as exerting control over it?

Frog describing himself as gloating and solved from his point of view, and so on is kinda my impression of town!Frog. He's one of those players that has a read on everyone. But I don't know how well Frog emulates this sort of excitement for solving as scum

Not really, no. I just completed a scum game recently:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984&user_select[]=16233

Most of what I provide as scum is in the scum chat I think. For thread control in the past I focused on tinfoiling, bloating the thread with dumb discussions and then lurking out once I draw too much heat. I find it a bit overwhelming to actually attempt to imitate my town game as scum.

Realistic chance this is a brand of meta manipualtion. "No look guys THIS is how I play as scum. Therefore, I am NOT scum.". This one doesn't care for meta analysis but it just thought this was worth pointing out. Detailing ways you would've/could've did things as scum but didn't feels itself a smidge scummy in an abstract sense.

What would have been a response to Morning Tweet's question in 187 that wouldn't involve a realistic chance of meta manipulation?

If your purpose isn't to shade or scumread (28), then why torpedo this response? Can you clarify your read on Frogs?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I also did some research on Ythan's meta and I could post the cliff notes of that I guess if I just have oodles of time. My main takeaway from Ythan past games is that they are a very capable player as both alignments and are grossly underperforming this game, not only how they have previously played as Town but also how they have previously played as scum, which makes me suspect Ythan might be 3rd party who wants to fly under the radar.

What do you mean by 'underperforming'? My 1 game experience with Ythan was that he was perceived as kind of scummy as town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yui is the cutest, no contest there

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oversimplification. Erinys is more so saying the means of presentation are not enticing.
I back Erinys’ comment here since I have experienced other players doing the sort of thing it accused Froggy off doing.

Just to make sure I understood this post right - are you saying when people self meta to prove themselves as town, they tend to lie more often than not? If so, I disagree with that conclusion

I said I was gonna avoid meta but this is just comical
I don’t think Elements has ever voted scum!me, but he frequently scumreads town!me

Elements admitted to not having read the game yet, why did you feel the need to say this?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@Gamma, yea players can lie about their own meta. But on balance, I think there tends to be veins of truth in self meta.

What Frogs said can be a lie, but I feel like the same can be said for almost anything in forum mafia. So when High Princess said he could've been manipulating his meta, like sure he could've been - that almost goes without saying - but is he actually?

What would have been a response to Morning Tweet's question in 187 that wouldn't involve a realistic chance of meta manipulation?

If your purpose isn't to shade or scumread (228), then why torpedo this response? Can you clarify your read on Frogs?

Fixed the quote link

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You make a good point that Frog seems to be very aware of this thread-bloating point, that's a very good catch with 145 actually I missed that he had brought this up before.

I understand why you made the precaution

What's its logic here? The potential meta manipulation was important to call out (because Frog was self aware), even though the usage of self meta didn't move the needle on its read

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think Frogs & Gamma are both town. I feel pretty good about calling Frogs town at this point based on my understanding of his scumrange, and Gamma is more of a vibe read

[Cat Scratch Fever]

also, why did u vote princess?

never got a response to this from cat scratch

Because it came in the thread to write 68 without commenting on game-related stuff

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: imaginality

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: imaginality

Why?

He's scumreading you, but confused your post with someone else's. Absent any other stated reason for scumreading you, i think this carelessness is scummy. His HPE read was also a bit of a hedge.

Also i think the votes on this wagon are good

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I want to take a different direction, can players who townread Gamma-I'm thinking csf and dragons especially-explain why you townread Gamma? I have ideas about why, but I'd rather give you a chance to explain.

She is somewhat more proactive here than she is at scum. She's fairly skilled at being in the background as scum.

Calling for a 1v1 with you is not what I'd imagine she'd do as scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Frog meta stuff aside, this one is wondering where tapiocaphobe and Vaxkiller are, and where Ranger went.

I like this

y?

Good breadth of interest

Calling out people who haven't posted in the game yet is +scum in my experience. It looks like contributing while doing nothing to advance conversation. Unless it is explicitly calling them scum for lurking, which I don't think it is doing.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

I can understand why, "imaginality mixed up two players and is a bit noncommital so far" is nice easy justification for a vote so it's tempting for scum who don't have to lie to join the wagon.

Helps that I'm low activity so not likely to push back as noisily as some players would. It's a wagon scum can hope might lead to a mislim that looks understandable and if it doesn't they don't look bad for being on it and pressuring me to play more.

I did this. It looks like you wanted to encourage a 1v1 between Frogs & Gamma and found the flimsiest reasons to do so - not even closely reading your scumread's posts & trying to piggyback off of my "scumread" on them when in fact I had the opposite read.

My vote has three main points to it

1) i like a lot of the people on the wagon, so i looked into imaginality. I dont like how they're drawing attention to the 1v1. I've mentioned the concept of "acceptable wagons" in past games. It's been a great scumtell for me when someone tries to magnify two people because it provides great protection to scum.
2) i still like frogster despite my concern about them. I don't like the wagon on them and don't think it's good for the game.
3) vanitying gamma just seemed shit. She should be easy to resolve and isnt going anywhere

I vibe a lot with this post

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Elements

[Cat Scratch Fever]

They came in and voted Vax, who hasn't posted in the game yet. I think there was already plenty of info for them to sink their teeth into. I'm also interested in hearing more about their Quiet Owl and Ranger townreads.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I can see CSF scum.

What's up Titus?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Now answer me this: give a single reason beyond the claim for imaginality to be town.

You don't have to be sold on town!Imaginality, but I don't see why he is the best wagon.

I don’t really have good reasons to call imaginify town but I don’t think the reasons for the votes on him are that good either. Lazy/weak play is rather unimpressive as a reason since it feels like they just got off to a bad start that got capitalized on.
Aside from that a main focus is pushing a 1v1 of me vs. Frogsterking. I don’t really have an issue here except with you buying into that while having me all the way down in your reads. I don’t think you should be calling that a problem except if you think either a) me and Frog are both town or b) I would feel bold enough to go toe-to-toe with Frog as scum here and feel like I could come out relatively unscathed. Clearly you don’t believe a), so what about my play so far suggests b) to be true?
Lastly, the “disingenuous paragraph” may overgeneralize the votes but it captures a lot of what I feel like is wrong with the imaginify wagon. And I think the writing feels towny given how imprecise it is: scum would try to ensure clarity in that paragraph imo.

I guess the one thing that does stick out to me is the use of “noncommittal” as a thing people are calling their okay when that was used to refer to furtive iirc

THIS ^^^

we don't have a deadline.

why are we rushing to eliminate someone when the case on them is this flimsy?

This feels like virtue signalling. I doubt you don't know what a pressure wagon is.

Based on what I've been taught about "wagonomics"

circus noises

Redirecting attention onto furtive and Ythan reveals the intriguing possibility that the spoiler quotes are scum theater:

Everyone read this out loud and hear how ridiculous it sounds.

I think you're unnaturally focused on Frogster's posts. Looking at your ISO, most of your posts are about/to Frogster, and I feel like town would be casting a wider net.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

All right, that's probably fair. Hope you had a good Christmas!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Because Imaginality is not even close to getting eliminated... I don't think he is even the top wagon. The wagon only feels sticky because many players have not checked in since Titus' claim due to Christmas. I expect the wagon will fall apart once people's activities pick up again.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Because Imaginality is not even close to getting eliminated... I don't think he is even the top wagon. The wagon only feels sticky because many players have not checked in since Titus' claim due to Christmas. I expect the wagon will fall apart once people's activities pick up again.

"why are we rushing to eliminate..." - literally who is rushing to eliminate besides maybe Ranger (and even then her vote might change)? The wagon is a major pressure wagon and one of the first "real" wagons we have in this game, but I don't see us eliminating soon with a few slots not even having posted yet.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Because Imaginality is not even close to getting eliminated... I don't think he is even the top wagon. The wagon only feels sticky because many players have not checked in since Titus' claim due to Christmas. I expect the wagon will fall apart once people's activities pick up again.

I just don’t understand why it’s virtue signalling, why can’t it be a genuine take?

Because it's a pressure wagon, I doubt most people on it are voting to eliminate without further evidence. Maybe they misread people's intentions and think people want to push Imaginality over - that could be true - but given that they're vote hopping themselves, I kind of doubt it?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Titus - me
<snip>

Why is Enchant moderate town and Elements & HighPrincess weak town?

I can see CSF scum.

What's up Titus?

Wagon hops. No words.

On the last wagon hop, I moved off imaginality after your blatant soft.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, but

a D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votes

and has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.

Why does this make you doubt her claim?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

quiet owl is town

Why?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I would believe this if he wasn’t continually circling back to the same few central ideas. When my thought process runs wild, it becomes completely erratic.

He's town and tunneled on you & Titus scum. That's why he keeps coming back to the same central ideas.

615 it may be fair but it doesn't make sense as an excuse as they've "engaged" the game this way on all days, not just Christmas.

I didn't like her recent pop in fwiw

This seems like a really wild take and it is also something I might expect from town Titus maybe. I was wondering if it was a bad look for Chungus and Dragons to be refusing to vote each other in the way that they are.

This is a sample even though we found each other fast that game. Town!Frogster expects "off the wall" takes from my perspective. He still engages even when I FoS him. In fact my off the wall take was based off VCA, which I could have included in my case here.

You're reading the games very differently right now, so it makes sense for Frogster to naturally be suspicious of you. Hence, he's also treating you differently & engaging differently. Have you played with Scum!Frogster? (Actually, do you remember my meta towncase on him in LOST?) I think he's far out of his scum comfort zone here.

I think all 3 of {Frogs, Gamma, Titus} are town, and this continued back and forth is damaging to the game state.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

:/
What do you make of Frog’s play here vs. as Purple Mask?

That's my whole point with him here. He originally claimed to think my mason claim was town.

He thought I was dumb town in Masque.

He had a frustrated tone. Here, he argued two town cores going after each other which should be immensely frustrating. Yet, when I posted my reads and called out his townblock theory, he turned on a dime. So I'd like to talk about those. This argument is getting circular and nowhere. No one is saying anything new.

Can't the differences in reaction towards you be accounted for because you flipped Scum in Masque?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's not analogous. Titus is referring to a specific kind of interaction in which Frogster gave her the benefit of the doubt (couple with frustration) in Masque but not here.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

The more this one thinks about it the less likely it thinks Titus's mason claim is real. Their insistence on things like the PT, knowing imaginality's alignment, etc etc are all convincing, but

a D1 outing of two masons when one had at most 7 out of 12 votes

and has since dropped from that... It's kind of insane, honestly. Really sketched out by this.

Why does this make you doubt her claim?

Because it's an extremely weird circumstance to claim Mason with someone else in? All it's really going to do, if true, is paint a target on their backs in the future because 7/12 really does not need a D1 mason claim to save your buddy, it would've been alot better to wait until around E-3/2 or so because then there's a very immediate and credible threat to imaginality's life. Now Titus has thrown both of them into the line of mafia fire just to pull imaginality's wagon a further away from the finish line. They're either scum partners, something other than masons, or masons who felt the need to make a

really

strange play.

Town will not play perfectly and won't always wait until E-2 until claiming. As for whether this is a scum gambit, if one of them goes down, then the other does too. It ties them together, which is something scum avoid doing and why I'm inclined to trust it.

As for the other argument - Titus & imaginality aren't masons but Titus is fakeclaiming something, I still don't see why they need to be resolved today

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What is the interaction Titus is referring to from Masque, then?

It's in the quoted 737 but also starting with 669. Specifically, Titus says that Frogster is not expressing enough frustration towards her and is not treating her as if she's dumb Town.

I don't know what you meant when you said Frogs is treating you different than he did Masque - if there is a specific interaction you have in mind, I'll take a look at it. But as MT said, people are not always going to treat others the exact same way. How they choose to respond and react to specific things has a lot to do with how they were already reading the game

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Quiet Owl

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: furtiveglance

Why did you vote furtive here? was it solely because of 72?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Ythan

[Cat Scratch Fever]

literally who is rushing to eliminate besides maybe Ranger (and even then her vote might change)?

You're not the first to suggest I'm rushing to eliminate.

Where's the narrative come from?

I'm certainly making a case as to why we shouldn't let imaginality coast on a claim I don't believe is true, but that's far from rushing the day through. My reads will change, especially when given compelling (counter-)arguments.

And, yes, my vote may indeed change.

622 was in response to Quiet Owl's 595, who said we were "rushing to eliminate imaginality." Here, I was arguing that we weren't rushing to eliminate imaginality, and I was not sure how anyone could possibly have that take. However if I were to be charitable towards Quiet Owl's post,

maybe you

were "rushing to eliminate" from Owl's perspective.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

With 4 pending replacement slots, it's probably going to be a while before we get a new Ythan. Back to this:

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I could be swayed onto furtive, but with my tris read kind of dropping before she replaced out, I'm not sure he is actually scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

because a wagon on an empty slot is not going to be useful. There's no info to squeeze out of Ythan because she's not here...

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Frogster appeal on activity for some reason make him trustworthy

this is mediocre, scumleaning Enchant

this Ythan wagon is bad as hell, shame about the replacement too

I still want to get Frogster today... out of Ranger's suggestions earlier I could be down with furtive and I don't want Ythan's slot gone

Agreeing with quite a few of McMenno's reads actually (Frogster/Enchant to be precise). They could just be Town with a style that I scumread, the alternative is a Town!Frogsterking world which is theoretically possible, but right now I see this Ythan wagon as an effort to save Frogsterking pushed by Mafia.

Do you always do these pre-flip reads?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ythan also isn't here to claim, and I'm not going to lim her without that. Vaxkiller & tapiocaphobe both also need to post something

@Frog, I'm not. I think my arguments will appeal to others on the Ythan wagon too, maybe

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Frogster appeal on activity for some reason make him trustworthy

this is mediocre, scumleaning Enchant

this Ythan wagon is bad as hell, shame about the replacement too

I still want to get Frogster today... out of Ranger's suggestions earlier I could be down with furtive and I don't want Ythan's slot gone

Agreeing with quite a few of McMenno's reads actually (Frogster/Enchant to be precise). They could just be Town with a style that I scumread, the alternative is a Town!Frogsterking world which is theoretically possible, but right now I see this Ythan wagon as an effort to save Frogsterking pushed by Mafia.

Do you always do these pre-flip reads?

I feel like your purported confidence in Frogs flipping scum is incongruous with the reasons you've given for scumreading him.

Like you're very confident in Frogs flipping scum to the point where you say things like "MT isn't scum with Frogs", but the reasons for actually scumreading Frogs in 752 feel quite weak to me.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Me? I don't like posts like that bc it comes with no analysis. Like I don't know if it's scumreading Gamma for the inconsistency or what

[Cat Scratch Fever]

How much analysis do you want? Gamma made a big show about having Elements vote him. It was weird, especially given his quotes earlier in the game. Context matters.

I'm sorry I'm tired, having elements vote her.

HPE was cautioning Elements to not vote Gamma? That's a valid interpretation and probably even the likelier one, but tbh not the one that immediately came to mind when I read that post in context and just now

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Looking through the page HPE doesn't seem to care about Elements. Just seemed like it dropped a gotcha, but it's a pretty good gotcha considering how easy of a throwaway comment the earlier posts are in RVS.

I think I finally understand what you were saying, that the scumread was implied in 517 due to the nature of the gotcha. That wasn't really clear to me, because from HPE's posting, I would gather it's townreading Gamma or something.

As for the gotcha itself, I think Gamma noticed that Titus was softing masons with imaginality (463) and then decided to jump in the proverbial line of fire. Does it have more meaning to you?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Did you read my 760 about Frogster? That was at you, Titus

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@Quiet Owl: this comment in frog's post 145 pings me as odd:

"I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

I feel like a townie there would not be saying "+town for both of us" compared with "+town for you". It seems an unnatural way to phrase it and to me makes it feel like frog is more focused on guiding others to read him as town (as with the other comment you noted in the same post) rather than on trying to read others.

I doubt this is AI. I remember another instance where town!Frog worded things a bit abnormally and got jumped on it:

Subject: LOST (Game Over)

I'm reading my interaction with Galron as SvT.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

because a wagon on an empty slot is not going to be useful. There's no info to squeeze out of Ythan because she's not here...

Absolutely loving the CSF town here.

I think this is kind of NAI for me tbh

---

MT, thoughts on Quiet Owl?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i assume that a jester!frog here wins when dead, in which case the course of action here is probably to ignore him completely until we have reason to suspect that he's a different sort of scum?

mcmenno mentioned having a role that interferes with investigatives so i assume that if true that's a counter to someone else's role. would be a convenient way of resolving the frog conundrum.

The problem with leaving a jest alive is that they can derail discussions and make it hard to scumhunt. I'm still not sure if he's actually jester or just scum acting like jester tho.

I hope there's a vig.

Why aren't you engaging on any of the reasons people have put forth for Frogs being town & just repeating that Frogs is scum ad nauseam?

Ranger's mental juitsu about why she doesn't have to defend a person with six votes but I have to defend someone who has no votes is ridiculous.

Are you

trying

to be disingenuous?

I'm

choosing

not to defend Frogsterking while he's at six votes

; that doesn't mean I

can't

. Were I to, it'd be entirely off of play.

I think you should; the Frogs wagon is really sticky and p obviously not going anywhere barring some more aggressive vote canvassing.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

In fact, I'm not sure which slot Math replaced, but if the menagerie of anti town roles in this game are desperate for a town slot to push through, I would consider helping you eliminate Math as policy since he already outted for no reason and has a history of being loose-lipped.

VOTE: MathBlade

Take it or leave it, scum/whatever/whatever/whatever else butts.

you votehop like your namesake. i read you as town playing very badly rather than scum at the moment, and therefore i suggest 1) getting some integrity 2) taking a bit longer to think on things instead of your gung-ho "shoot at everything and hope that something sticks" approach.

You're currently townreading Frogster? Not going to lie, 906 read like you were scumcasing Frogster. Why did you post it?

post by post frog analysis: (22 out 126 posts read, taking a lunch break, sorry about the lack of readability formatting)

Spoiler:

post 69

- to be taken with salt, as intro posts ideally should be provocative in order to start readable discussion. HOWEVER, the reads here are contradictory and garbage.
frog reads:

1. tris scum, for "awkward looking questions" - garbage take
   
2. ythan scum, specifically for asking someone their opinion on another player - also a garbage take! seems like everyone in the thread is asking such questions, including frog himself.
   
3. erinys scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
4. lycanfire scum, for participating in random voting - garbage take
   
5. furtive, csf and gamma town, meta handwaving

at this stage,

1. furtive has particpated in random voting, cracked jokes, and requested realtime interaction. why is furtive towny for this, but erinys and lycanfire are actively scummy? contradictions: 1
   
2. csf is asking questions but also giving reads. up until #85 i also pegged her as town.
   
3. gamma has done basically nothing at this point. how can you possibly read her as town at that point.

post 76

- backs off on tris when questioned, stands his ground on the ythan read. does not acknowledge this is contradictory. contradictions: 2

post 79

- backs off on lycan, stands ground on erinys. contradictions: 3

post 81

- interested in reasons to town read ythan

post 86

- picks up on csf's weird scummy feeling 85 post,

here begins the frog vs csf era

post 90

- meta discussion of csf

post 94

- frog vs csf fight fight fight fight
frog reads:

1. lycanfire, town, for "doubling down on questioning" so questioning is scum behaviour until the questioner tries applying pressure?
   
2. csf, scum, for questioning his flimsy initial reads.

post 97

- makes a :/ face at csf for voting erinys, who frog reads as scum

"viewing it from a PoV where scum!ythan sees an opportunity to frame town!csf in a scummy light"

the two people viewing csf in a scummy light here are frog and myself. ythan made no such attempt. agree with gamma here: "I feel like Ythan saw CSF’s play at that point as pressing others for reads rather than working on making her own so she opted to press CSF on it"

more frog vs csf

post 100

- asking csf for a reads list even though supposedly asking for opinions is scummy

post 108

- dislikes csf's small reads list, weakly applies pressure

post 110

- i don't even know here. csf didn't post on page one and therefore her question here is valid. how on earth would it be +scum? how on earth is posting a readslist with no justifications +town for ranger? this just feels like cheap theatre.

post 115

- frog vs csf

post 118

- frog vs csf, frog wavers on ythan

post 124

- links his own scum post as proof that ythan #62 is scummy??
frog reads:

1. enchant, weak town, for mech spec?
   
2. andree, weak town, for mech spec?

post 125

- frog reads:

1. ythan, scum
   
2. princess, scum
   
3. furtive, scum
   
4. ranger, town

no new reasons provided for these reads. asking ranger for reads on george, erinys, and gamma

post 142

- frog reads:

1. morning tweet, town
   
2. KT, town

no reasons provided.

post 145

-

"as scum I had a fantastic opportunity to bloat the thread with useless, horrible drama by dragging out a fight with tris over whether or not asking questions is AI for them."

frog is trying to feed people reasons to read him as town here. i do the same thing as scum.

no comment on the gamma comments other than frog reads: gamma, scum

"This is the kind of overreaction I think can be scum indicative."

frog questioned erinys's identity with his gimmick comment earlier, hence the negative reaction. this should be obvious.

"I noticed that you went straight to attacking my reasoning rather than questioning whether or not it was scum motivated."

so people shouldn't challenge flawed reasoning? excuse me?

(directed to csf)

"I think it's somewhat likely that I overreacted because you've read me right quickly in the past. I was thinking about it and I'm no longer convinced that there's a scum motivation for you to play this way. I'm not sure how defined your playstyle is as scum but I'm picturing you as more pockety and under the radar when you're scum. I feel like our conflict may be motivated by paranoia which I think is +town for both of us."

this is the end of frog vs csf.

i don't understand and am not remotely convinced by his reasoning to drop the scum!scf case.

literal omgus response to mcmenno for voting him

post 147

- no comment

post 149

- the ol' 62-124 ythan accusation. no comment here other than as previously stated i think this is not indicative of ythan's alignment either way. indicative of frog's because he keeps pushing this as scumtell gospel? absolutely.

post 153

-

"I can literally bury Gamma with a case based purely on meta."

ok why don't you then.
backing up the bluster here with action would help frog achieve the quickhammer he supposedly wants, and yet he seems content with just casting aspersions.

no comment on the joke/serious tris bit

post 154

-

"I can quote from not one, not two, not three, but four separate scum games which each show Gamma is deep in her scum meta right now."

show us the games, mr frog.

post 156

- gloating, putting on a show of confidence

I’ve been trying to stay caught up with this game but explain to me how this is getting votes?

This reads like a transparently townie thought process.

By pointing out every weird thing that Frogs has done? That's not very difficult to do as Scum in my opinion because of the idiosyncrasies in his play.

Quiet Owl townreading Frogs throws me for a loop tbh. From my initial read of 906, I got the impression they set out to formulate a scumread on Frogs and were working backwards from a conclusion. Or if they were town, they were so tunneled that they were seeing almost every Frogs post in a negative light.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CSF: Why is Frogster town? Did I miss a post of yours?

I think Frogs & Gamma are both town. I feel pretty good about calling Frogs town at this point based on my understanding of his scumrange, and Gamma is more of a vibe read

& scumrange, cont with a metacase from another game

Spoiler: post 760

I would believe this if he wasn’t continually circling back to the same few central ideas. When my thought process runs wild, it becomes completely erratic.

He's town and tunneled on you & Titus scum. That's why he keeps coming back to the same central ideas.

615 it may be fair but it doesn't make sense as an excuse as they've "engaged" the game this way on all days, not just Christmas.

I didn't like her recent pop in fwiw

This seems like a really wild take and it is also something I might expect from town Titus maybe. I was wondering if it was a bad look for Chungus and Dragons to be refusing to vote each other in the way that they are.

This is a sample even though we found each other fast that game. Town!Frogster expects "off the wall" takes from my perspective. He still engages even when I FoS him. In fact my off the wall take was based off VCA, which I could have included in my case here.

You're reading the games very differently right now, so it makes sense for Frogster to naturallya be suspicious of you. Hence, he's also treating you differently & engaging differently. Have you played with Scum!Frogster? (Actually, do you remember my meta towncase on him in LOST?) I think he's far out of his scum comfort zone here.

I think all 3 of {Frogs, Gamma, Titus} are town, and this continued back and forth is damaging to the game state.

i'm at page 41 and i would like to see him dead right now. why is VOTE: frogsterking a bad vote?

Yes, he's town by meta. He's a bit of a lurker with low energy as scum. These things that people are latching onto - solves that change every other page & aggression - are actually town indicative for him. I don't see him trying to come up with a PoE of 4 people and constantly adjusting it as scum.

what made you want to vote him?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: furtive

I'm starting to doubt that Quiet Owl is scum. Them townreading Frogs while dropping a large play-by-play analysis where they say things like "I make posts like this as scum" is still wild to me, but I feel like this kind of blatant inconsistency comes from Town more often than Scum. Their opinion of his slot as tilted town rather than scum is also a good holistic take that I think is townie.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

All right. I don't disagree with 973 being bad - I don't think Math was outing any more claims than was necessary. I just don't think it overrides everything else I know about his town & scumgames.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm curious, what's to stop frogster from emulating your tells (aggressive townblocking, changing reads on a fly, activity)? Or, for you to coach him and let him run amok and rein everyone back in after he's had his fun? Your previous reads are

SO VERY SPECIFIC

to his play in this game.

Sometimes scums are just hungry for a breakout game. in [url=viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78725]large normal 218[/post] I metadove and profiled every single player including my teammates as scum because I was determined to puppetmaster the hell out of the fucking game. Up until this point none of my scum wins felt like they were worth anything. You gave him a roadmap, that's something that's really only good once. Will his slot continue to resolve further for you?

I think what you're asking can apply to almost any metaread. Maybe he wants to dedicate a lot of time & effort to winning the game. That still means that on balance, it's more likely that my read is right. For this specific case, he has improved his scumgame most recently in viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89984 and upped his activity, so I'm aware of the potential pitfalls of my read & what you're asking here, but I think his play in the Mini Normal is still noticeably different from his towngame. I've kept abreast of his meta differences, basically.

As for what's to stop me from coaching him, the reason is because meta tends to not be very appealing to many people. I've given a similar metaread on him in LOST, and Frogs was almost limmed day 1 anyway (he was only spared by someone gladiating someone else only to be vigged night 1 lol). Emulating your town meta when your town meta gets you killed more often than not is not really an effective approach.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It's

raw

[Cat Scratch Fever]

.............................................
yes i too am most powerful wizard i am very trustworthy yes yes.
the above is sarcasm.

either this ends the game, or this ends the day and we have a 50/50 chance of catching scum. i am tired and in a gambling mood. VOTE: Frogsterking

NOTE THAT FROG IS AT E-2 NOW

Retracting my earlier town read on this

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Both kills are offwagon, we lim on wagon today

VOTE: Quiet Owl

[Cat Scratch Fever]

how do you eliminate frogster? reading this absolute disaster was the worst thing I did this year

who's scum on it

[Cat Scratch Fever]

hmm.
anyone in a neighborhood know if there are any vanilla townies in this game at all?

Why ask this?

Also Morning Tweet flipped Nea, so probably, but not guaranteed

[Cat Scratch Fever]

a thought. no-one believed frog's claim except maybe cat scratch and ranger. so what do they know that we don't?

Is anyone townreading this slot?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I want people to look at 1392 and tell me what alignment that post looks like. Disregarding claims, in a vacuum; how would you be reading imaginality from his posting?

I still don't see why this slot needs to be resolved today. I get that you think his posting is scummy, but there are still plenty of scummy do-nothing slots that should be culled.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Maybe someone can sell me on it. Anyone wanna give a good rundown on the Owl scum read?

1145 is a bad hop onto the Frog wagon. I'd also argue that Quiet Owl is a newer player from a skim of their meta, and that typically isn't how new players react to TPR claims

Their solving is very unnatural, e.g. the early multiball comment as well as 1035. In 906, they drop a play-by-play analysis of Frog with many reasons to scumread Frog and few reasons to townread Frog. They then go on to say that they were actually townreading Frogs in 977. So what was the purpose of that analysis? It seems like they wanted to show how much solving they were doing, but it wasn't with the goal of limming scum in mind.

Also look at how they've scumread me for basically the whole game, but don't talk to me. They've also avoided engaging with other people- (1252) is another example

[Cat Scratch Fever]

votecount 2.03

didn't ask + don't care + l + ratio + touch grass

4 players voting for imaginality (Prince of Paterson, UltimateGamer, HighPrincessErinys, Ranger)
4 players voting for McMenno (Titus, Elements, furtiveglance, imaginality)
3 players voting for Gamma Emerald (Gamma Emerald, Not_Mafia, MathBlade)
1 player voting for Titus (Enchant)
1 player voting for Quiet Owl (Cat Scratch Fever)

7 players not voting (McMenno, KittyTacky, Lycanfire, Quiet Owl, GeorgeBailey, Gimli, kitten around)

with 20 votes, it takes 11 to eliminate.

mod notes: Gamma Emerald has requested to be replaced.

Can we just do Gamma please? I don’t like the McMenno or imaginality wagons.

If not someone else?

Why not McMenno?

I really don’t like how I suggest a lurker and McMenno gets suggested and NM gets suggested and there’s someone that vouches for NM but not McMenno. McMenno the entire argument is lurker which NM also is and

it came up fast.

It has Gamma’s support (before she replaced out) and a top wagon of imaginality. Two of the most townread players are arguing against it. I think there’s no way McMenno flips scum here.

Do you think there's scum voting for McMenno? Besides Gamma, who I don't think actually voted for them.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I suppose it's time for me to full claim.

I am
1) a neighbor with imaginality
2) I know imaginality to be town
3) I am a night 4 suicide bomber
4) imaginality is a night five rolecop

So your role name has the word `neighbor` in it, but the mod said you know each other to be town, is that right?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

New reads: I think KittyTacky, UltimateGamer (Ythan), and Gimli (Vaxkiller) are town. Kitten around is scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

New reads: I think KittyTacky, UltimateGamer (Ythan), and Gimli (Vaxkiller) are town. Kitten around is scum.

Wanna elaborate a bit on the Kitten scumread?

The reasoning behind their reads feels kind of superficial - 1425 explains one example

When they engage the thread, they're asking a lot of surface-level questions 1311, 1319, 1435. Asking questions is okay, but I think they're doing it an awful lot relative to their other contributions.

Read their ISO - can you tell who they think is scum? It's hard to tell, because they're not pushing or making waves, but instead are just flying under the radar.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Because it's vote had been uselessly parked on Tapiocaphobe for ages and it did not really like imaginality at that point in the game. Actually going to UNVOTE: imaginality now because it will finally concede that them and Titus's claims are believable to it. For now.

What about Titus' and imaginality's claim suddenly became more believable?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Like they've now full claimed, but I don't think anything in their full claim made them any townier?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do y'all think of kitten around?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

how do you feel about highprincess?

I don't know. I was gut scumreading it early, but then dropped it because I kind of townread how it questioned the mason crumbs in the game thread. I didn't think scum were likely to do that. The way it reacted just now with unvoting imaginality feels off - like why not unvote earlier?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

Haven't played with kitten around so I'm not sure whether they're usually like this, but based on their ISO I'd put them in the low end of null. What do you think of Lycanfire and Paterson? I have them all sort of null

kitten around more active in this game as town: viewtopic.php?t=90036&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

They exhibited a certain zeal for scumhunting that I do not see here.

Lycanfire I had as town yesterday but need to hear from him more today. Paterson feels okay so far but also need more.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It’s not a thing like vigilante where she could hit a scum/SK and confirm herself she’s just dead.

I kinda not seeing why we would keep her alive:

Then we can if she’s town confirm some sort of redirection which in that world I think Elements is scum.

1. Why not leash her?

2. I'm still waiting for everyone to check in after Kitty's claim, but if no other meat vendor comes forward, I agree there's probably scum in {Titus, Elements}.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

1.

Leashing her isn’t possible.

Assume your mod confirmed town. Tell Titus to suicide on me or we kill her. Oops mod confirmed town dies. Then what? We have to waste an elim on her? We already have some sort of redirection likely. It’s quite possible scum take that suicide bomber on a mod confirmed town.

2. I don’t get the hesitation. If she’s a suicide bomber she dies. So?

You're saying by Night 4, we'll have confirmed town from night actions, and if scum, she'll suicide to take them down? If her claim is true, she'd die anyway - we won't be wasting an elim.

But I think what you're saying is that she has no incentive to be leashed, because she's marked for death anyway, yes?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Anyway, CSF, what do you think of McMenno?

I don't have a reason to think McMenno is town, and it's pretty annoying how they aren't doing much to make themself readable when they say they can't be investigated. My main worry is they're limbait I guess, I've been meaning to meta there, and I have some time now to do it.

I'm mostly waiting to see if anyone is interested in a Quiet Owl or kitten around wagon.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: kitten around

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

My thought, especially when Frogsterking flipping town, is that's where scum are. They're happy with T v Ts all over the place, which is why I'm ok reassessing Ranger rather than just tunneling her.

Why not kitten around, Titus? Kitten around fits your hypothesized gamestate of scum lurking in the background while town eats itself alive

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I didn't get much from McMenno metadive. They don't like playing mafia (the game, not the alignment necessarily) very much, and are a sparse poster.

I can see them flipping as either alignment, really.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i haven't put much effort into defending myself because

i see my elimination as inevitable

. i don't act like normal town. never have, probably never will. therefore i am trying to arrange my iso to be useful after my death, which will prove my alignment and in theory then be helpful. arguing over my alignment is a distraction, and i think it's very very easy for scum to get brownie points by going after me.

I think the bolded reaction is a bit premature. Your wagon fell apart very quickly, and now no one is voting you

Not sure how I feel about the rest of the post tbh

[Cat Scratch Fever]

All those assuming the redirection is from scum, why?

The only town motivation I can think of for redirecting is to divert a kill from Titus to you. I don't think you're actually scummy to justify that though; there are better targets for that.

I think if a town redirector exists, they should claim. But I'm open to hearing other opinions on this.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Titus & imaginality, did you discuss with each other why your role names are Neighbor instead of Mason? I have a theory, but I'm interested in what you and others think.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CSF probably just wrong, one of Prince/Math scum.

CSF probably just wrong, one of Prince/Math scum.

Whichever one is scum here definitely doesn’t want a 1v1 with me but I’ll more than happily engage with it to take out scum. Try me.

Why is one of Prince/Math scum? Do you think you've been town enough such that they shouldn't be voting you?

Also I think they're both town.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

What's on your mind Enchant?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

If it was mafia redirector, they just swap them with some unprotected lurker and kill titus unopposed.

If Elements is scum and Titus is town, why wouldn't she bus drive herself with Titus?

I've been saying redirector but that's just shorthand for any switcheroo role, incl bus driver

[Cat Scratch Fever]

but enchant has a point, redirector shouldn't claim yo

why would town redirector redirect from titus to elements though? anyway

Yeah exactly, i think it was a scum action

I think it's worth claiming, because if no one claims it, it's very likely we have scum in titus and elements, and that's important knowledge

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Read their ISO - can you tell who they think is scum? It's hard to tell, because they're not pushing or making waves, but instead are just flying under the radar.

I feel this is overly harsh. Nearly every post, kitten around has made relevant posts about topical reads. 345, 627, 834, 998, 1002, 1074, 1296, 1688, 1689, 1694, have reads.

617, 618, 624, 625, 627, 833, 1002, 1017, 1023, 1034, 1057, 1058, 1064, 1097, 1556, have relevant commentary.

That's 23 / 39 of her posts. She feels like she's contributed plenty.

Of course she has reads. Even scum are going to have reads to fake contribution.

But she has like a handful of townreads, and that's it. She's commenting on things but doesn't feel emotionally invested in the discussion and isn't getting into the thick of it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

kitten around more active in this game as town: viewtopic.php?t=90036&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

So I read that iso and I don't think it's actually different from here. That was an entire game, where kitten around replaced in during a time there was also plenty of content. Here kitten around has been playing from the beginning and the game isn't remotely close to over. She made 40 posts on that game's D2 as a replacement who had 56 pages' worth of content to read. That's comparable to her rate here imo.

In that game, she was only in the game for 2 real-life days before Day 2 ended. That's a lot of posting...

[Cat Scratch Fever]

kitten around and Quiet Owl are good competing wagons

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What did you do in the hood that I should be townreading?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm scumreading you for reasons outlined below:

Spoiler:

New reads: I think KittyTacky, UltimateGamer (Ythan), and Gimli (Vaxkiller) are town. Kitten around is scum.

Wanna elaborate a bit on the Kitten scumread?

The reasoning behind their reads feels kind of superficial - 1425 explains one example

When they engage the thread, they're asking a lot of surface-level questions 1311, 1319, 1435. Asking questions is okay, but I think they're doing it an awful lot relative to their other contributions.

Read their ISO - can you tell who they think is scum? It's hard to tell, because they're not pushing or making waves, but instead are just flying under the radar.

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

What do y'all think of kitten around?

I ISO'd them and could be scum, playing very safe in general, but I couldn't find any specific post or a general atittude that feels scummy

That's a pretty accurate description yeah. In general, I think scum tend to fit this profile more often than not: not doing anything wildly strange to stand out, but not pushing the game forward either.

Haven't played with kitten around so I'm not sure whether they're usually like this, but based on their ISO I'd put them in the low end of null. What do you think of Lycanfire and Paterson? I have them all sort of null

kitten around more active in this game as town: viewtopic.php?t=90036&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

They exhibited a certain zeal for scumhunting that I do not see here.

Lycanfire I had as town yesterday but need to hear from him more today. Paterson feels okay so far but also need more.

Read their ISO - can you tell who they think is scum? It's hard to tell, because they're not pushing or making waves, but instead are just flying under the radar.

I feel this is overly harsh. Nearly every post, kitten around has made relevant posts about topical reads. 345, 627, 834, 998, 1002, 1074, 1296, 1688, 1689, 1694, have reads.

617, 618, 624, 625, 627, 833, 1002, 1017, 1023, 1034, 1057, 1058, 1064, 1097, 1556, have relevant commentary.

That's 23 / 39 of her posts. She feels like she's contributed plenty.

Of course she has reads. Even scum are going to have reads to fake contribution.

But she has like a handful of townreads, and that's it.

She's commenting on things but doesn't feel emotionally invested in the discussion and isn't getting into the thick of it.

kitten around more active in this game as town: viewtopic.php?t=90036&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

So I read that iso and I don't think it's actually different from here. That was an entire game, where kitten around replaced in during a time there was also plenty of content. Here kitten around has been playing from the beginning and the game isn't remotely close to over. She made 40 posts on that game's D2 as a replacement who had 56 pages' worth of content to read. That's comparable to her rate here imo.

In that game, she was only in the game for 2 real-life days before Day 2 ended. That's a lot of posting...

But to add onto that, you say things like 1688 with no follow up read on either Math or Prince, so your solving just looks really superficial.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

At the risk of sounding like Gamma Emerald sounding out every obvious role subtlety

Somebody (probably Ranger just by post volume) said they had a theory about Titus' role wording. The theory is that Titus may be a neighbour with alignment confirmation is because there's potential for alignment changes in this game right? Otherwise, calling someone a mason is very bastard if they could be converted (the nice bastard way of handling this would have any alignment changes fail on a mason IMO).

Oh, that's an interesting theory

I was thinking earlier that Titus & imaginality are Neighbors instead of Masons because there could be someone unknown with access to their PT, effectively making that PT a neighborhood instead of a masonry.

@Titus and imaginality

, did xyzzy tell you who has access to your PT?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

And I don’t see why any of the examples you gave are ai in the slightest? What exactly is your issue with anything I said? I totally stand by what I said and won’t change anything to avoid a mislim.

Well, I don't exactly expect to convince you that you're scum

But you don't think anything I said in 1812 is AI?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

:thumpsup:

[Cat Scratch Fever]

spoiler alert: it's going to flip town

I'm... Kinda worried they will too? I'm not quite as sure as other people seem to be. But like, I'm not sure I'm going to feel _good_ about an elim today. Might as well go for the one that I feel semi-okay with.

Both of you, vote kitten around

Quiet Owl not wanting to claim feels like it's coming from town.

6 players voting for Quiet Owl (Titus, MathBlade, UltimateGamer, Ranger, imaginality, Elements)
bear in mind that while it takes 11 votes to eliminate someone, i am

passively hated by the town.

this means that today i am eliminated at 10 votes, one vote less than a normal townie.

So with both Not_Mafia and Enchant in this game, that places you as currently at L-2.

So...why aren't you claiming?

i have no intention to claim at any point in this game. how on earth would that be remotely useful?

VOTE: Quiet Owl
You sure?

No, them not wanting to claim is someone doing something weird and hard to understand instead of actually scummy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This is awesome. I’m basically getting run up because I apparently had an unpopular reaad

Clarify which unpopular read of yours is the reason why you're getting run up, please.

This is a good post. 1822 was a nonsensical response to her wagon.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Not_Mafia, read kitten around's ISO and help me lim her

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ok. I feel Ultimate is lock scum. I'm too tired and have too much driving to really hard case them. However, I do feel their ISO is either pocketing but most likely partners with kitten.<snip>

I'm not as confident in UG scum as Titus is, but I think this is a town post. UG's behavior around the Quiet Owl wagon was suspicious, and townreading KA for "sounding frustrated" is flimsy.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Quiet Owl, claim or die.

If you claim now you have a chance to not die.

If you don't claim you are guaranteed to die.

....................... that's why they're probably town for not wanting to claim....

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I can't really put N_M anywhere other than null for this, which is very annoying. However, I think QO and KA are town so I'll vote here since there's been a bit of momentum.

Why do you think QO and KA are town?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I can't really put N_M anywhere other than null for this, which is very annoying. However, I think QO and KA are town so I'll vote here since there's been a bit of momentum.

Why do you think QO and KA are town?

Sorry, just read the rest of the post lol. The KA thing can be replicated as either alignment. Read the content of their posts

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hard to argue against a Not_Mafia wagon, but it's a redux of the McMenno wagon. Feels like random guessing

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah which McMenno posts are scummy? Not just low effort, but scummy.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hard to argue against a Not_Mafia wagon, but it's a redux of the McMenno wagon. Feels like random guessing

I'm trying to understand why exactly McMenno would claim interference with investigations (I hope I don't remember incorrectly here), but not delving further.
Scum investigatives would almost certainly not go investigate McMenno!town since they would know they're almost surely not lying, so I'm really struggling to understand what would the risk be in just telling us what the interference is exactly. Otherwise if, say, a Watcher or something sees them go visit someone that dies, they could just claim Gravedigger and wiggle right out of that, or if anything at all comes out that would mechanically implicate scum I'm sure they could just invent some claim to wiggle right out of that.
I'd rather they would just elect a claim to lock into.

PE: I'm ISOing them now. I'll see if I see something really fishy.

That's fair about wanting them to be more specific

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hard to argue against a Not_Mafia wagon, but it's a redux of the McMenno wagon. Feels like random guessing

Have you read their posts? I don’t understand how you’re even comparing the two?

McMenno I mean.

I also don't understand the comparison as NM is just giving a bunch of nothing while mcmenno feels like the epitome of UTR scum.

And yes I was townreading him cause of the claim but after going back and forth in so many slots that aren't actually very scummy at all I think this is a fine compromise

Because they kind of don't do much as either alignment

Same goes with NM

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Okay which of their reads are scummy?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think lycanfire and prince of paterson have also raised good points about KA fwiw

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Who do you think is scum, Quiet Owl? You're not voting

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Multiball is 2+ groupscum factions

SK isn't groupscum

....................... that's why they're probably town for not wanting to claim....

Alternatively, they don't want to be locked into a fakeclaim and are relying on people like you to bail them out off the idea of not claiming = town.

You're an enabler of scum getting away with things they shouldn't be allowed to get away with.

I mean, that's possible but not probable

But they couldn't rely on people like me to defend them. Refusing to claim is more likely to get you limmed than not on MS. It's anti-survivalist.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Owl, who is scum?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think in a game this large there are inevitably a few players matching this description. I'm surprised that CSF used this same logic to push kitten around

and

to defend both McMenno and Not_Mafia today. What's the difference between them?

The difference between KA & McMenno/Not_Mafia is that KA likes playing town and is active as town, but McMenno/Not_Mafia have a repeated pattern of not doing anything as either alignment. Meta is the difference, basically.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Refusing to claim is more likely to get you limmed than not on MS. It's anti-survivalist.

No?

Refusing to claim is disproportionately likely to save you. People don't want to eliminate unclaimed players, and read refusal to claim as town.

MafiaScum has an

aversion

to wagoning those who refuse to claim.

I doubt I will change your mind about this or the other way around, so this will be my last post on the subject

But just look at how HPE and KittyTacky voted for them after refusing to claim

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i still hold the same opinions i did here.

Then why aren't you voting me....

[Cat Scratch Fever]

furtive is probably town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

They are lazy. Unclear to me if lazy scum or lazy town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think in a game this large there are inevitably a few players matching this description. I'm surprised that CSF used this same logic to push kitten around

and

to defend both McMenno and Not_Mafia today. What's the difference between them?

The difference between KA & McMenno/Not_Mafia is that KA likes playing town and is active as town, but McMenno/Not_Mafia have a repeated pattern of not doing anything as either alignment. Meta is the difference, basically.

I knew that about N_M but not McMenno. Is there a game you have in mind or shall I go most recent?

The difference for me is that although KA started off more passive, they've become more involved after being dragged into things

They barely play mafia anymore

This is probably their best town game that I could find, but keep in mind that it's an invitational: viewtopic.php?t=89320&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Town but this setup was very unusual: viewtopic.php?t=78083&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Scum: viewtopic.php?t=77420&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I can see a KA+QO team I just would rather get who

scum

don’t want.

who is the word "scum" referring to in this sentence?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

kitten around is very likely flipping scum because there's little chance her defense of quiet owl on d1 to frogster came from town.

This only works with Quiet Owl being scum--flip Quiet Owl first.

I believe kitten around is town. Quite strongly.

I'm starting to think you're scum tbh

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Two more let's go

paging Enchant and Not_Mafia. I'm happy ending the day with KA.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Can you just vote kitten

Do you have a read on that slot

[Cat Scratch Fever]

kitten around is in the hood, so if that flips scum, I expect people will out it tomorrow.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That’s my secret scumread. Kill McMenno after I flip, kthanx

kitten around isn't claiming, that's a sign of a town player, right?

@Cat Scratch Favor

That’s my secret scumread. Kill McMenno after I flip, kthanx

kitten around isn't claiming, that's a sign of a town player, right?

@Cat Scratch Favor

If it wasn't clear, Cat Scratch Favor is voting kitten around.

Cat Scratch Favor has defended Quiet Owl's refusal to claim as being indicative of a slot being town.

kitten around is not claiming.

Ergo, if Cat Scratch Favor actually believed their philosophy were true, they'd unvote kitten around here.

(To be clear, that philosophy is backwards.)

Once I reveal a tell I use, the tell kind of takes a hit in effectiveness.

Another thing is that Quiet Owl's refusal to claim seemed like a stubborn townie, whereas kitten around's lack of claiming seems more like they're resigned to their inevitable lim at this point.

As for the bolded, I could easily pull a reverse uno card and ask why you didn't vote kitten around if they're refusing to claim & you think that's scummy.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

DUCY = do you see why?

it's not about that. scum knows who's in the hood and what you're talking about. we should know it too.

the chances of 0 scum is extremely slim, you know

you lose the chance to catch scum not in the hood revealing that they know more than they should

was the thought at least

[Cat Scratch Fever]

If you're resigned you totally go out in a blaze of glory and rolefish with a claim.

I think kitten thought they'd be saved, but wasn't.

The lack of claiming was to prolong day, that's all.

You mean like a last minute counter wagon?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I have some time now

[Cat Scratch Fever]

1758 was when kitten around wagon first registered in the VCs.

McMenno wagon soon fell apart, and Quiet Owl was (and remained) the largest counterwagon to kitten around. Some of the stalwarts on that wagon are: MathBlade, Ranger, KittyTacky, UltimateGamer

I feel like both MathBlade's (2239) and Ranger's (strong townread on kitten) reasonings for remaining on that wagon felt flimsy.

UltimateGamer did move their vote onto Enchant in 2247 - an uncharitable interpretation of that post would be a last ditch effort to revive a lurker wagon & save kitten around. Not sure if scum would bother with Kitten already at E-1 atp though, the optics look almost comically bad if Kitten flips scum. I could see it go either way.

---

Titus (VC 1955) and Gimli (VC 2184) were critical votes to swinging the KA wagon. Titus because she is effectively a doublevoter with imaginality sheeping her, and many here trust the mason claim. Gimli because he was aggressively canvassing votes.

If scum bussed, I'd gather it was after these two votes were placed.

Spoiler: VCs

votecount 2.07

diet dr pepper will change your damn life or your money back

6 players voting for Quiet Owl (MathBlade, UltimateGamer, Ranger, imaginality, HighPrincessErinys, KittyTacky)
5 players voting for kitten around (Cat Scratch Fever, Prince of Paterson, McMenno, Lycanfire, Titus)
3 players voting for Not_Mafia (Gimli, Elements, furtiveglance)
2 players voting for biancospino (biancospino, Not_Mafia)
1 player voting for McMenno (kitten around)
1 player voting for Cat Scratch Fever (Enchant)

2 players not voting (Quiet Owl, GeorgeBailey)

with 20 votes, it takes 11 to eliminate.

mod notes: I assumed there'd be another post between when I posted the replacement and posting the votecount. there wasn't, but this is a separate post anyway. thank you for reading this important mod note

votecount 2.08

I did this votecount on the train! hooray for public transit!

6 players voting for Quiet Owl (MathBlade, UltimateGamer, Ranger, imaginality, HighPrincessErinys, KittyTacky)
6 players voting for kitten around (Cat Scratch Fever, Prince of Paterson, McMenno, Lycanfire, Titus, Gimli)
4 players voting for McMenno (kitten around, Elements, biancospino, furtiveglance)
1 player voting for biancospino (Not_Mafia)
1 player voting for Cat Scratch Fever (Enchant)

2 players not voting (Quiet Owl, GeorgeBailey)

with 20 votes, it takes 11 to eliminate.

mod notes: prodding imaginality.

---

Then there's the "lim the lurkers" crowd: (excluding kitten from this)

Gimli

, Elements, furtiveglance, biancospino. I'll go into that in a sec, but I want to hit submit first.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

mmm actually I could see McMenno and kitten around crossbussing

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Spoiler: Elements

VOTE: quiet owl

VOTE: kitten around

VOTE: not_mafia

VOTE: mcmenno
I'm tired and v/la this weekend so I'll probably keep just sheeping the biggest wagon if and when I check in until monday

Lots of votes on VOTE: kitten around

UNVOTE:

VOTE: mcmenno

VOTE: kitten around

they just were voting whomever, not really partner indicative

I have to head out soon. But one impression I had was that the counterwagons needed some extra oomph if they were to be serious contenders at the end. The louder people were pushing KA

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This one is willing to go for McMenno, QO and somewhat Kitten, it'd say. Which, p-edit: seems to be a bit of a consensus.

Vote McMenno? Even if I disagree with the kitten wagon, dueling wagons is good.

Sounds good to this one. VOTE: McMenno

After 1661, hpe was the only one to join mcmenno. There was another mcmenno wagon later but the wagon comp was v different.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Agreed. That's a hilariously uncharitable read.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

gg all, thanks xyzzy and korina for modding

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't think you redacted enough posts, Enchant