Newbie 2113 - Shea it ain't So! | Game Over!

[furtiveglance]

Furtive can you give reasons for finding Dion scum?

Wasn't the minimal case you provided largely linked to Patch also being scum?

That was my mindset at the time and it probably showed but no, it wasn't a conditional read. Dionysus is individually scummy and playing differently to past towngames (e.g. 2110). I think I've said this before.

[Empathice]

Furtive can you give reasons for finding Dion scum?

Wasn't the minimal case you provided largely linked to Patch also being scum?

Like you actually pointed out how Dion was winking and finding things funny as if you were side-eyeing it and found #14 scummy. I Also don't like how you say things "aren't +town" instead of "NAI" multiple times in reference to Dion but you don't bother to mention NAI things for anyone else?

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

[Empathice]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

0kay, fruitive didn't even agree to my deal

[KawaiiKame]

Dionysus is individually scummy

Why is Dio individually scummy?

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

I'm going to IS0 Empath to see if I see Empath in a new light

[furtiveglance]

Furtive can you give reasons for finding Dion scum?

Wasn't the minimal case you provided largely linked to Patch also being scum?

Like you actually pointed out how Dion was winking and finding things funny as if you were side-eyeing it and found #14 scummy. I Also don't like how you say things "aren't +town" instead of "NAI" multiple times in reference to Dion but you don't bother to mention NAI things for anyone else?

If I used the phrase 'not +town' or similar I probably wanted to convey that it was +scum

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

They aren't Masons.

[Empathice]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

They aren't Masons.

IDC.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

0kay, fruitive didn't even agree to my deal

I didn't know we had one.

[Empathice]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

0kay, fruitive didn't even agree to my deal

I didn't know we had one.

You aren't even Fruitive.

[Empathice]

Now go read and tell me if I'm way off on Empath or not

I'm Empath with a 2

I haven't read anything but will do

Calling yourself Empath2 before catching up and following my reads looks really weird also.

[furtiveglance]

Now go read and tell me if I'm way off on Empath or not

I'm Empath with a 2

I haven't read anything but will do

Calling yourself Empath2 before catching up and following my reads looks really weird also.

This is a Blood on the Clocktower joke - Empath is a role that gets a number - how many of their neighbours are evil. 2 is very rare and something of a meme.

[skitter30]

VoteCount 1.9

patchwork [ 4 ]

BluebloodedToffee, furtiveglance, dionysus, empathice

If patchwork flips town I feel there there is at least one wolf here

I feel like furitive might be scum here

[skitter30]

vanilla townies

and that's a completely hypothetical question because someone in my other game mentioned it in passing i am absolutely not outing my role

Not even at E-I?

idk i don't really have motivation rn so i'm just gonna be annoying until a) i regain my motivation b) someone quickhammers me

Town?

[furtiveglance]

VoteCount 1.9

patchwork [ 4 ]

BluebloodedToffee, furtiveglance, dionysus, empathice

If patchwork flips town I feel there there is at least one wolf here

I feel like furitive might be scum here

flashback to Newbie 2110

skitter30: furtive is so scum am I right
Gimli: Hell yeah skitter. I also saw furtive soft PR, classic scumtell. Let me E-1 him for you
furtive: What. skitter is town, Gimli is scum.

unflashback

Moral of the story: trust my reads skitter

[skitter30]

Patch + one of Bewolkt/Furtive is probably the solve RN. I Can see Furtive bussing here.

Furitive bussing patch would be kinda weird imo. I don't really see this as a team

[skitter30]

I'm not a fan of it because it'd like to push other people honestly

Who do you want to push? I imagine dio/emp

Yes with empa as my first choice and keeping in mind that I am very wary about bbt so why not VOTE: bbt

???

[skitter30]

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

It is now that I admit my read was partly based on meta, and I fully agree with this.

Hmmmmm
Ok that iso does look a bit different

[skitter30]

I agree that the iso's are different but tbh not convinced that patch is scum still. I'm kinda see-sawing on this read.

I do feel bettwe abt furitive now that i see his read is meta-based

I didnt find the bbt case v convincing tbh

[Empathice]

Now go read and tell me if I'm way off on Empath or not

I'm Empath with a 2

I haven't read anything but will do

Calling yourself Empath2 before catching up and following my reads looks really weird also.

This is a Blood on the Clocktower joke - Empath is a role that gets a number - how many of their neighbours are evil. 2 is very rare and something of a meme.

Okay but that doesn't make it look any less weird to me, especially since their isn't anything that this joke ties to except my name.

[KawaiiKame]

Creating a reason for voting someone after being questioned about your vote. If you were town and actually hunting, you would not presuppose that something about Herta is scummy when questioned.

There would be a chance that you conflated a read on Herta with your RVS vote, however that is not what you said. You said you looked for a read on them after you were questioned.

I Don't believe TWTBAW (Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf) applies in this case either IMO.

This is Empath's foundational case, so long as Empath believes in this foundation this case needs to be pursued

[/quote]

Except in post #65 you say that you formed your read on Herta only when questioned on your vote. Giving your existing read on Herta when question about a RVS vote is certainly believable, but I can't see you, as town, forcing a scum read on Herta when questioned about your RVS vote.

Extending the case

Evidence? All I have is my case. Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

I Didn't notice any vibes myself.

Committing to the case in the opening is town ai

My current is like dio + herta/hadrian

Herta is absolutely never aligned with Dion. They would be more aware of their partner and their interactions with their partner. It could have been intentional distancing but I probably wouldn't buy into that even at f3 so good for them if it is.

In isolation in the case building, though it does eliminate a possible wolf/wolf, showing empath is thinking about this game systematically

Same question to you, empathice. Your scum case against me seems entirely down to a dumb ill-thought mistake during rvs. Or is there more?

How about this then-

Black, empathice, patchwork and probably bbt are town
Dio is scum
And a partner in the remainder imo

This ia my present view of the game

Why are you so sure of me?

Why me = Fry me.

You've already heard our cases. Insinuating that they are weak without a reasoning is a bad idea. Especially since scum are known to almost always care much more than town about people's reads on them.

Continuing to link the case to being why Empath believes dio is scum

Insinuating that they are weak without a reasoning is a bad idea.

actually, shouldn't you back up your claims with evidence? obviously dion has bad vibes (for me at least, might just be the instinctive OMGUS) but i don't think they've done anything explicitly scummy yet

Evidence? All I have is my case. Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

I Didn't notice any vibes myself.

wait, where's the case?
to me the vibes feel a little off. like its been jumping around a lot for me, i dont' like how abrubt they are when it comes to swithcing around on things + never evidences his claims so its also like. a little annoying. so i read them as town first, then null, town who likes to tunnel, then maf, and then back to null (because i'm paranoid he's just tunneling and it's not actually ai)

#156 #182 is the majority of it I think.

Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

also what does this mean

Help eliminate him so we can check his alignment. :p

Cites the case twice, advancing the thesis that the case needs to pursued

Black wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:11 pm

The case on Dio has more holes than Swiss cheese. Empathice I don't think you are as sure about Dio's alignment as you act like you are and I'm having a hard time believing someone with a town perspective would tunnel this hard on such weak evidence


Why me = Fry me is a strong tell if you don't like my main case.

Continues to pursue the case

The one you are voting him for?

Right. Newbie. Except a newbie would be the last person to create a read on demand wouldn't they?

Dio was asked about his read and he gave it. To me it looks like he thought herta's entrance was scummy, so he accidently attributed his vote to that, not remembering that he joke voted before herta's entrance. It was obviously a quick response because kawaii asked him why he voted in 37 and he responds in 38 less than a minute later. Herta's entrance in 20 was probably fresh on his mind. Seems like a pretty newbie mistake to me

He's telling people what things like RVS and FOS are so I don't think he's totally new.

I agree that he's not totally new, but your link didn't say "don't use this logic if they are totally new", it said don't use it if they are inexperienced. Do you think asking to explain reads is alignment indicative?

Also what is your mafia experience?

I Discussed that angle already. Read #65 with what you just said in mind and you will understand my case.

Continuously cites/pursues the case

Phase II:

Yes it is

I think with the exception of one post, maybe two I'd have to check, all their posts have been about me and the push has been quite aggressive. The closest they've ever come to entertaining someone else was a fluff vote on you which was immediately retracted (no commentary from you tho on what the purpose of it was tho. Weird). But since then: Dio Dio Dio Dio. No focus elsewhere. Not interested in thinking they might be wrong. Dio Dio Dio Dio.

How is that town behaviour? Some verbose way of saying "because I agree with them" is not an acceptable answer to this question either. Tell me why they are town

Reading you correctly doesn't make me win. Eliminating you makes me win.

This is NAI, all alignments need to eliminate to win, the aggression feels/reads town though

Yes it is

I think with the exception of one post, maybe two I'd have to check, all their posts have been about me and the push has been quite aggressive. The closest they've ever come to entertaining someone else was a fluff vote on you which was immediately retracted (no commentary from you tho on what the purpose of it was tho. Weird). But since then: Dio Dio Dio Dio. No focus elsewhere. Not interested in thinking they might be wrong. Dio Dio Dio Dio.

How is that town behaviour? Some verbose way of saying "because I agree with them" is not an acceptable answer to this question either. Tell me why they are town

Reading you correctly doesn't make me win. Eliminating you makes me win.

eliminating me will only help you win if you're scum. So on that I guess you're right: getting rid of me will make you win.

Would you like to thunderdome? One of us gets eliminated today and if they flip town we eliminate the other tomorrow.

This is the turning point, the point where Empath crosses the Rubicon officially going into Phase II of play, looking back this is a natural extension of pursuing the case, upping the stakes to the next level in a I v I, logically this is a pursuer pursuing the case to its natural end, an all out vote, equivalent to a prosecutor taking his case against the defense to court

Empath fulfilled the need to pursue the foundational case against dio until ceasing to believe in the case

Still you although Dion is just below you.

Why the change of mind of dio being wolf w/ patch to being #3 in town?

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

How doesn't it work? I must've missed the hole in your logic thing, lemme reread. Do you not have many town since you see many slots as null/scum? What causes you to think someone is town? Like how do you determine who is town?

I Didn't bother explaining that yet but "Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

This realization ends the need of Empath to pursue the foundational case against dio

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

This signifies the logical conclusion/endgame of realizing the foundational case against dio is logically unsound

In Closing:
Empath pursued the foundational case against dio like they needed to do, only ceasing to pursue the case against dio when finding the case against dio logically unsound, once the case lost logical sense in empath's eyes he stopped pursuing dio, defending him
Systemically pursuing a case to its logical end and concluding a case is illogical following the above ^ is town ai

[KawaiiKame]

The only things I dislike with empath is attempting to out the masons + how long it took empath to realize,

"Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

I do like Empath realized this, happy I realize the case, I do not feel this is a gambit in this point, I failed to realize the case

[KawaiiKame]

My view on Empath's fundamentally changed with the IS0