Newbie 2113 - Shea it ain't So! | Game Over!

[KawaiiKame]

Sad

[bewolkt]

Some review on dio's day 1

Spoiler: The Herta vote

Probably what he got more heat from. Voting Herta and arguing later that they did it because their entrance was scummy while they hadn't posted yet. He got a bit defensive first ("did I have to") but then admitted to it being rvs (but still somehow maintained that they think the way Herta entered was scummy). During this discussion he mentions tr patch at this point a couple of times. Not much here by itself, I feel the fact that he wasn't more careful with his reason is +town, but also I don't see why would not admit than he didn't have reasons in any case and was trying to initiate discussion (+wolf)

VOTE: herta

Why you vote herta?

their entrance is scummy

Herta didn't even go into the game at the point you voted them...

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[viewtopic.php?p=13660000#p13660000][/20]

oh you're right haha.

OK I'll revise my answer to it was rvs but now I think their entrance was scummy

it was rvs

0kay Ik the concept b4 knowing the name, I thought that was why Black voted herata
If it was rvs why didn't you say it was initially?

Did I have to

Spoiler: Part 2

He goes on with a vote on Empa when they enter the game. They get some push from it from skitter. NAI for me since this can be genuine protown, but the difference is that in this case he has no problem admitting this vote is just to move the discussion along.
His next main contribution is 196 when he votes kawaii and has kawaii/skitter/patch as their main sus. Part of it is a summary of what happened before but some relevant things:
- He strongs tr Empa because "their contributions already feel much more helpful for town" . He agrees with Black that "a wolf is more likely to build a case around inconsistencies in RVS" which is what Empa is doing, but still they are being helpful? Seems a bit inconsistent to me. Empa questions him about this later and he says that "Your posts feel like they are coming from a town mindset to me, with a genuine intention to hunt scum and have some thoughtful content. Unless you tunnel, obviously." (this is NAI to me at this point). He was also sr by bbt for this.

He later retracts his sr (and vote) on kawaii on 232

Spoiler: Pushing others

He starts pushing patch over not being cooperative. I understand his frustration because I also shared it while I was reading the thread and then they move on when they say they can't get much out of it (this is +town imo).
Later they start a push on my slot to get a response. Also he asks for more input from Empa and posts this (but this didn't apply to bbt?)

Like if he is online and ignoring the thread entirely and votes against him then that is indicative of lurkscum imo so that would still be valuable information.

He stops tr Empa because they are tunnelled on him (+town), but I find their defense against skitter pretty bad imo: just mocking their reads and saying that they're based on vibes, which is something he also did in his readlist. He concludes that the scum must be in skitter/patch/empa, with Empa being a sure thing (359)

Black, empathice, patchwork and probably bbt are town
Dio is scum
And a partner in the remainder imo

This ia my present view of the game

Why are you so sure of me?

Your posts keep pinging me as being just 'off- - not just once or twice, but over and over and over again

I don't feel like you're solving - you have a lot of activity and are ~here a lot but tbh i don't really feel like you have solid scumreads

This is pretty terrible reasoning too from someone who has me top of their scum list. In summary your read is based on vibes. You also cite me having a lot of posts but don't get the sense I'm trying to solve yet you tr patches of all people.

Spoiler: Ending the day

here he starts pushback with skitter/Empa that ends with a stronger sr for Empa I think. Not much here from my view to make it either way but he mentions that patch is a bit more +town for him later 722. Then is just a looooot of discussion over the Herta vote that it's the same over a over. He switches back to patch (apparently the reason they tr them before was that they showed that they were seeing the game from their pov)

i don't think i was even doign anything before lol

Well exactly.

You had about 10 posts which showed you were analysing the game from my pov and now you've gone back to fluff posting and making excuses for you don't have any anything solid after 34 pages. It's nonsense.

OK I am going to vote patches but want to check vote count first because if I'm putting them at e-1 i want to make that clear

But also

Reminder: agreement or disagreement with a read or push is not a good reason to townread or scumread someone

Now skitter is not longer considered possibly scum? Don't know if I missed anything but I don't see why the change

So for me the scum are within patch, Emp and kawaii.

Patch - they're not trying to solve. Don't really want to go over this again.
Emp - tunnelling and refusing to look elsewhere is not trying to solve. Their reason for scumreading me is dumb as shit. I can't explain how ridiculous I think it is to condemn someone as scum for "not trying to solve" on page 2. Then there was the pr hunting. I don't particularly sr them for their own inconsistency although I do hope they acknowledge it and reflect.
Kawaii - my had a soft sr on them earlier in the game for mostly asking a lot of questions without making any pushes of their own. This is scummy behaviour imo. They went to null after a big post of theirs on response to this but they've slipped back down with their hardcore buddying/pocketing of black. And I do agree that the "town and tunneling" comment may have been a slip

And last bringing us to read patch's other game, which indeed is hypocritical, and while I agree that the approach in one game is different from the other, from my view the one that has more to lose from a comparison with other games (also including the other game he linked) is not patch but him

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

I find there are some inconsistencies in his arguments and I'm not very convinced on why they have settled on patch in the end. Of course we all have some small inconsistencies and we don't put everything in writing, so feel free to address any of these or further explain if you feel like it @Dio. Also I would wonder at this point (or also for tomorrow if you'd like to address them):
- Do you feel bbt has been scumhunting more than any other player? If so, please elaborate why and if not, why didn't you pursue them like you did with many others?
- What do you think of furtive? It seems to me you didn't engage with them as much as with skitter, empa, patch or me despite being also quite critical on you
- Why aren't considering skitter anymore? (I may have missed this)
- Why settling in patch at the end? You have expressed as some points you got townie behaviour coming from them, and I feel you were more convinced on your push on Empa, since your push on patch was more based on "fluff posting" and their other game (which you even admit is not even a strong reason)

[Black]

Ok I'm at work! I have more free time at work than I do during the weekends XD

I do have a little IRL work to do but after that I'm going to read the last 15 pages or so that I missed and then solidify my Empath and patch reads

[furtiveglance]

Ok I'm at work! I have more free time at work than I do during the weekends XD

I do have a little IRL work to do but after that I'm going to read the last 15 pages or so that I missed and then solidify my Empath and patch reads

And then after that you'll hammer

[KawaiiKame]

And then after that you'll hammer

No one is bound to hammer

[furtiveglance]

And then after that you'll hammer

No one is bound to hammer

Black doesn't need to hammer, because you're about to

[Black]

I feel like y'all are just waiting for me to provide some magical solve but what y'all don't realize is I suck at this game lol

[furtiveglance]

I feel like y'all are just waiting for me to provide some magical solve but what y'all don't realize is I suck at this game lol

just relax and sheep

[Black]

Don't make me hammer patches. I like them

[Black]

Ok starting my catch up now. Might post my thoughts in real time as a go

[Empathice]

Don't make me hammer patches. I like them

UNVOTE: Patchwork

I Like hammering. <3

[Black]

Empath is on the upswing in feeling town to me, shifting away the dio tunnel, focusing in on patch/beowulf/fruitive
Logically though it's hard to dismiss how calculated this all feels, Empath goes all in on dio (potential bussing gambit) thunderdoming dio only to back away when a vote push on patch builds, switching between them and dio finally landing on patch, even not accepting my dio vote deal to unvote empath/patch, unvoting patch in the night to wait on bewolkt, then voting back patch when bewolkt defends them, simultaneously moving away the emp + dio votes to the patch vote with fruitive + bewolkt

It's potentially feign an all in gambit against dio w/ thunderdoming, switching between dio/patches, unvoting patches, waiting on the new slots, vote patch, gun in on the new slots, achieving dio + emp heat being taken off while scapegoating patches and lining up votes on bewolkt/fruitive

This summarizes pretty well how I feel about Empath. A lot of why I think Empath is scummy has to do with behavioral stuff and that kinda falls apart when you try to look at Empath's perspective from a careless lazy townie angle. Most of the things I SR him for can be argued against by saying "wolf wouldn't do this." I HATE this argument because I don't think wolves always do the optimal play. I think it's completely likely that an experienced wolf would try to get the masons to claim D1, knowing that everyone else is going to call it "too wolf to be a wolf." An experienced wolf can call for a Thunderdome to seem townie and easily wiggle out of it. Notice how Empath stopped talking about it completely once Dio suggested Empath go first? And then switching to the easy mobile patch wagon after people started to pushback on the Dio case seemed convenient and opportunistic.

The thing with the Empath case is I can't prove that his actions were wolf motivated, even if I feel it in my gut. Gut feeling isn't going to get the job done here. I still think this slot is a wolf but if no more than 3 people share this gut feeling then we can't go this route today

[Black]

Reading 48-51 or so and bewolkt is just town right? I'm not getting first impression wolf vibes from this slot at all

[Black]

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

How doesn't it work? I must've missed the hole in your logic thing, lemme reread. Do you not have many town since you see many slots as null/scum? What causes you to think someone is town? Like how do you determine who is town?

I Didn't bother explaining that yet but "Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

Empath finally admitting this is good. The tunneling really made me feel like Empath did not have the town's best interests in mind. I'm just not sure if this realization came about as a survival tactic to seem more townie or if it's a genuine thought

[Black]

Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

Why don't you reconsider patches

I am, they slipping into scum, though I don't want to hammer a potential scapegoat

Kawaii can you expand on this thought? I might come across it in the next few pages of my read but I'd like to know what patch did specifically that made you think of them as "slipping into scum"

[KawaiiKame]

Empath finally admitting this is good. The tunneling really made me feel like Empath did not have the town's best interests in mind. I'm just not sure if this realization came about as a survival tactic to seem more townie or if it's a genuine thought

I feel it is a genuine thought, Empath pursued the case to its logical end, concluding that it's presumptive to believe Dion didn't care about scumreading scum, the pursuit/conclusion feels town to me, though Empath did negate this in #1532

Logically Empath is town, instinctively Empath is scum, emotionally I'm conflicted since I see Empath as sheep and Empath as wolf pursuing the same case, one as genuine scum-hunting, the 2nd as a long game gambit

[KawaiiKame]

Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

Why don't you reconsider patches

I am, they slipping into scum, though I don't want to hammer a potential scapegoat

Kawaii can you expand on this thought? I might come across it in the next few pages of my read but I'd like to know what patch did specifically that made you think of them as "slipping into scum"

That's me falling into groupthink, being pressured by all sides to believe patch is scum which is exactly why I'm so resistant to hammering patches since it's being pushed so hard, I believe it was the ATE accusation Empath stated but it may have been b4

[KawaiiKame]

[quote=Black post_id=13673059 post_num=1589 time=1677520386 user_id=36961]
Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

patch is the scapegoat, Idek why exactly, that's what scares me, you need to ask dio/empath/fruitive

[KawaiiKame]

Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

patch is the scapegoat, Idek why exactly, that's what scares me, you need to ask dio/empath/fruitive

EBW0P

[KawaiiKame]

Fail

[KawaiiKame]

Probably what he got more heat from. Voting Herta and arguing later that they did it because their entrance was scummy while they hadn't posted yet. He got a bit defensive first ("did I have to") but then admitted to it being rvs (but still somehow maintained that they think the way Herta entered was scummy). During this discussion he mentions tr patch at this point a couple of times. Not much here by itself, I feel the fact that he wasn't more careful with his reason is +town, but also I don't see why would not admit than he didn't have reasons in any case and was trying to initiate discussion (+wolf)

Yeah I'm having a hard time shaking the feeling dio is wolf with this... Empath's case,

Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum

Has merit

[Black]

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

Dio going through this other game to get a better read on patch is +town to me. I can't read through it atm to confirm if the playstyle contrasts are there

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

It is now that I admit my read was partly based on meta, and I fully agree with this.

Weird post by furtive

Patch responding to the meta read on page 53 doesn't feel right. I normally get townie vibes from their posts but not so much on this page for some reason

Patch actually trying to solve on page 54 with kawaii and dion reads. Then they scumcase BBT and actually make a lot of sense. This all seems +town for me

Page 55 - furtive seems to agree with me on a couple things. I didn't like the Empath vote after the giant BBT case...that felt weird and kinda survival mode? Patch asking who they should case next is +town

Kawaii unvoting Emp on page 56 just to sheep furtive feels weird. Also on this page Empath telling people not to vote for Dion also feels weird. The 180 here from dion being definitely scum to Empath yelling at people for voting him is crazy

Page 57 - Dio thinks it's definitely patch based on the meta case. Still would like to read through this other game from patch later if I have time

And this is the point where I'm starting to feel caught up. Final thoughts - I think the patch slot could go either way here but I just have a gut feeling they are town with a polarizing playstyle. Without having fully dived into the meta case I can't really be sure about that. Empath on the other hand still seems like the most scummy player to me...but I can't prove it and no one outside of kawaii/bewolkt seem to agree with me. I don't feel confident in the read because like I mentioned it's behavioral and I can't really argue these points to convince people to vote for him. So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

[Empathice]

Empath is on the upswing in feeling town to me, shifting away the dio tunnel, focusing in on patch/beowulf/fruitive
Logically though it's hard to dismiss how calculated this all feels, Empath goes all in on dio (potential bussing gambit) thunderdoming dio only to back away when a vote push on patch builds, switching between them and dio finally landing on patch, even not accepting my dio vote deal to unvote empath/patch, unvoting patch in the night to wait on bewolkt, then voting back patch when bewolkt defends them, simultaneously moving away the emp + dio votes to the patch vote with fruitive + bewolkt

It's potentially feign an all in gambit against dio w/ thunderdoming, switching between dio/patches, unvoting patches, waiting on the new slots, vote patch, gun in on the new slots, achieving dio + emp heat being taken off while scapegoating patches and lining up votes on bewolkt/fruitive

This summarizes pretty well how I feel about Empath. A lot of why I think Empath is scummy has to do with behavioral stuff and that kinda falls apart when you try to look at Empath's perspective from a careless lazy townie angle. Most of the things I SR him for can be argued against by saying "wolf wouldn't do this." I HATE this argument because I don't think wolves always do the optimal play. I think it's completely likely that an experienced wolf would try to get the masons to claim D1, knowing that everyone else is going to call it "too wolf to be a wolf." An experienced wolf can call for a Thunderdome to seem townie and easily wiggle out of it. Notice how Empath stopped talking about it completely once Dio suggested Empath go first? And then switching to the easy mobile patch wagon after people started to pushback on the Dio case seemed convenient and opportunistic.

The thing with the Empath case is I can't prove that his actions were wolf motivated, even if I feel it in my gut. Gut feeling isn't going to get the job done here. I still think this slot is a wolf but if no more than 3 people share this gut feeling then we can't go this route today

Note that I would only ask masons to claim as mafia in order to towntell or confirm myself as VT. It wouldn't help actual rolehunting. And I stopped talking about the thunderdome when people made it clear it wouldn't happen.

[Black]

I zone out when people I'm suspicious of start telling me what they would or wouldn't do as mafia

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii unvoting Emp on page 56 just to sheep furtive feels weird. Also on this page Empath telling people not to vote for Dion also feels weird. The 180 here from dion being definitely scum to Empath yelling at people for voting him is crazy

I proposed a deal to fruitive to unvote Empath if he voted Dio, so I did, at that point I IS0d Empath and found Empath to be town