Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Bellaphant]

I don't think this is ai from ox, I seem to remember this just being them. I think vander has the best take on what they were saying though.

What's weird is that it didn't make me feel more about arko.

[Oclaxian Empire]

heres the real question ranger - why bother with theater over something so utterly mundane and stupid

[Oclaxian Empire]

u clearly havent played w/ us then, bc that’s a major thing. precisely saying what u mean is important and we will nitpick smth bc its imprecise. thats nai.

I mean, it's not imprecise, you're just reading an implication into it.

Is this really a thing you do, for real?
Because in general I find scum to be waaaaay more precise with their language compared to town.

Yes it is, because we were an English major in college pre-COVID. That’s *what* English majors do: look at sentences and pick them apart.

[AurorusVox]

I actually back ox over the “technically” point to be fair (might not agree with it but I can see why it pinged them)

Saying “technically” implies in reality it isn’t NAI

Hmm

Ox can you explain to me why you zeroed in on arko when multiple people were discussing setup spec at the time?

[Oclaxian Empire]

Also, not that it really matters, but meta is IMO absolutely a good way to read people, because people don't play the same as both alignments, no matter how much they try to.

The main thing with our meta that I can tell you, is I ignore my partners and post less as scum. That’s why meta is dogshit to read from, because that’s something you can manipulate. People can easily manipulate their meta, by looking at how they play and try to change it. Does that mean they will, 100% of the time, do so successfully? No, but that means meta is unreliable as a method, because players can recognize their own meta and manipulate it.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Kori: We just got up, give us like 15-20 min to get out the door so we can talk.

[Vanderscamp]

Also, not that it really matters, but meta is IMO absolutely a good way to read people, because people don't play the same as both alignments, no matter how much they try to.

The main thing with our meta that I can tell you, is I ignore my partners and post less as scum. That’s why meta is dogshit to read from, because that’s something you can manipulate. People can easily manipulate their meta, by looking at how they play and try to change it. Does that mean they will, 100% of the time, do so successfully? No, but that means meta is unreliable as a method, because players can recognize their own meta and manipulate it.

Can =/= will, and in fact in this case almost definitely means doesn't, because if they did, it wouldn't be their meta.

[Vanderscamp]

Yeah, I'm just not feeling an ox vote for whatever reason.

I really really don't like what they're choosing to focus on but I've been down this road many times with this line of logic with mixed results and it just doesn't feel right here.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I actually back ox over the “technically” point to be fair (might not agree with it but I can see why it pinged them)

Saying “technically” implies in reality it isn’t NAI

Hmm

Ox can you explain to me why you zeroed in on arko when multiple people were discussing setup spec at the time?

MS ate my first post, so I'm typing it again:

Nobody else's setup was as substantial or meaningful as Arko's. Us and Vader literally posted like a single post, that wasn't even that long in response to that. Vader's post was "I think this setup is townsided" - which, genuinely reads to me as someone just going "I wanna get into the game, and need a way to get *into* the game - I'll post if I think the setup is townsided or scumsided" - which... is NAI to me. It comes off more as someone who hasn't played this setup before going "I think this might be a townsided setup." Now, if Vader went "I think it's townsided for X, Y, and Z" that'd be different and we'd have zeroed in on that too. Our post is a single sentence saying that the setup might be scumsided and we should probably focus on finding townies. That's it. That's all there is to it.

Arko's posts, is just nothing. It's nothing of use, and people are TRing that. That's the problem. I looked at it again, because Grim didn't leave me specifically any notes about what they saw that made them think it's scummy, but there is one thing I noticed that I exceptionally

do not like

from Arko's postings, and I'm pretty sure it's what Grim saw and made it go "I don't like your posts" and it's the quoted below:

A saint going to heaven might as well not happen, it just makes the sinners closer to their 2nd wincon, and closer they are to that, more they can influence.

I don't like this because it makes it seem like sending townies to heaven is bad, when in reality it's good we do so. Scum have comms with their partners at all times. It doesn't matter what we do, scum are going to communicate all the time regardless. We should be sending townies to heaven when it comes up, and scum to hell when it comes up. There is no room for "well actually sending townies to heaven is bad" - NO. IT'S NOT. If we hit evens, the townies we sent to heaven vote on who they think is mafia. Like at worst, it's heaven 2, and it's a 4v3. That just means all the townies need to coordinate who they want to vote for. That's not *bad* because it forces scum into a position of they gotta help with this, or risk being spotted by that. Like, ugh. This post is so bad, words do not begin to describe it.

Trying to not send saints to heaven is actually anti-town because that's what scum wants. They want the sinners to go to heaven, not the saints. The entire point of the heaven day is to kill a townie. If you don't want to kill a townie, you're scum.

Other of Arko's posts that ping me:

Spoiler:

Actually, thought of it as more maf-sided
A saint going to hell is a benefit as it means one less martyr and one closer to their secondary win con
A sinner going to hell is a problem for them as you'd expect
A saint going to heaven might as well not happen, it just makes the sinners closer to their 2nd wincon, and closer they are to that, more they can influence.
A sinner going to heaven literally is their main objective

Basically, only 1 option makes the saints get closer to their win-con, while 2 make the sinner closer to their win-con. a Saint going to heaven has both benefits and disadvantages for both teams. A: More Time for Saints to take out Sinners in hell B: Sinners get more influence and closer to their 2nd win-con.

But from the history- the setup seems town sided.
And yeah, saints definitely start with an advantage, so if they are good enough they can win pretty easily.
White-Flag is a fucking bitch for scum, everyone knows that.
But without white-flag yeah scum might actually have the advantage.
It's a pretty hard to balance setup idea, in all honesty.

Setup spec posts that I think do nothing but fill space.

I'm going for the night, See ya.

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

Weird thing to say, especially because right now - posting doesn't equate scum. Some people just are busy, and have lives. That's actually NAI if someone doesn't post within the first five or so pages. If it's been like a day or two since daystart and someone hasn't posted, sure, I could see it being NAI. But not at gamestart.

VOTE: Arko

VOTE: Aisa

@Asia, Bella, KK - where those votes at?

VOTE: AurorusVox

why these votes specifically?

I'm gonna ask this question too. I wasn't looking here till now. Aisa, Are you like- Going for an OMGUS vote on Aur? and BB, I mean I understand if you aren't agreeing with the townreads, it could easily come from a sinner (There are 3 of them!) but what's your specific thoughts on me?

Weird point out that there are three scum present.

Fair point, No real reason for me to be townread for that, It's technically pretty NAI.

Technically post again. I feel very comfortable in saying that it makes me feel like Arko wants this to be AI, but can't get away with claiming it's AI, so it's "technically" NAI. It doesn't sit right with us regardless.

[AurorusVox]

UNVOTE:

[Oclaxian Empire]

(I guess that’s the challenge of a hydra account) so not sure why arko would be singled out for it.

Also technically not a hydra in the typical sense - its more akin to a meatspace hydra. We’re a system, meaning there’s multiple people in our head, who all have are their own unique identity.

I kinda instinctually know what Grim’s going at when posting, but not 100% certain, but we normally have notes for each other to read and play off of.

[Oclaxian Empire]

If you have access to the speakeasy, there's the plurality discussion thread. If you don't, we can look over it for some links, and find some other resources if anyone's genuinely curious about that. <3

[AurorusVox]

Oh wow, sorry I had no idea!! Sorry if saying hydra was offensive <3

I saw LLD’s post about a similar thing, really interesting! Didn’t realise that was what ‘system’ meant but very good to know for the future

[Aisa]

grim: fwiw, i expect the rvs vote to change, and i dont realistically think ull die from my vote, but it did elicit a reaction from u and that’s the thing i wanted from u.

Strong read that OE and Arko are not scum together, I don't think you say "I don't think you'll die from my vote" if your plan is to bus.

Tell me more?

Spoiler:

grim: i’m calling it’s e-2 so scum cant quickhammer. i dont like

ur phrasing of “its technically NAI”

like it implies that there’s somehow a chance its townie in this setup to setup spec.

realistically, the only setup spec that actually matters is

if it’s better to townhunt or scumhunt the whole game

bc trying to switch between both seems like a bit much.

also, ur reaction to my e-2 vote is interesting and i wanna think abt it.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire For

nitpicking

and

creating a false dichotomy

.

Personally I think we should scumhunt on days we will be sending people to hell and townhunt on days we will be sending people to heaven, and that people's preferences on this don't really matter all that much. I say take the approach that works best for you.

I also thought Arko's 'reaction' was another NAI thing, and your approach here seems a bit forced.

^ is town.

I TL Bella for this. Stating a read early on, and I, too, understand.

I think I understand Ranger's perspective that BloodB0t could be distancing, too. Idk my read on Blood overall though. I considered Oclaxian Empire + Arko scum together, seems like page 3 could be playful ribbing between teammates. Ironically I think Ranger could also be scum looking for an angle, partnered with one or more of {BloodB0t, Oclaxian Empire, Arko}.

The only actual read I have is the Bella townlean, the rest are scenarios I'm musing but I have no take on their relative likelihood.

You think page 3 sounded like playful ribbing?

I didn't get that impression at all.

Sorry, I originally skimmed page 3 but on a more careful reread "playful ribbing" is not the right description.

Yeah whoops. Initially I had looked at a few posts and my brain decided that the rest of the interaction must have been more of the same.

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:
Will figure out a serious vote at some point, still digesting everything now

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: arko

Is it crazy to say I think a scum voted ox?

[Oclaxian Empire]

a scum had to. i highly doubt that wagon was pure town.

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: kori and i will have some reads soon, gonna re-read the game while eating lunch. kori does agree tho the wagon against us isn't fully town, and we'll prolly be focusing on those who expressed scumreads.

i'm personally thinking bella +town, and vander might be paired with arko currently, but i want some time to think abt that.

---

Oh wow, sorry I had no idea!! Sorry if saying hydra was offensive <3

I saw LLD’s post about a similar thing, really interesting! Didn’t realise that was what ‘system’ meant but very good to know for the future

none taken. lld has a similar thing to us, yeah. i think lld has did, and we have osdd. same family of disorders, just did is more severe than osdd, and impacts memory between switches differently.

we also call it meatspace hydra on here bc that's the easiest way for ppl to get a surface understanding of how it works. it's not a perfect explanation at all, but it's surface enough that ppl understand how we function effectively.

[Arko]

Morning.
UNVOTE:
Ok... 3 Votes on ox already is way too quick. It took you guys only like 12 hours past my original vote. plus, BB was against ox too so they might of voted/hammered also. That's way too quick for a game with 3 scum vs 6.

[Ranger]

heres the real question ranger - why bother with theater over something so utterly mundane and stupid

Game mechanics. Something "mundane and stupid" as you put it makes for perfect theatricality, in a game where theater is disproportionately useful for scum.

Strong read that OE and Arko are not scum together, I don't think you say "I don't think you'll die from my vote" if your plan is to bus.

Not the post which gave me that read; for me, it was 74. Still, you seeing the same thing I did there (OE and Arko not scum together) is +town.

{Arko}
{Aisa, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant, AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{BloodB0t}

[Ranger]

Oh wow, sorry I had no idea!! Sorry if saying hydra was offensive <3

Depends on the system tbh. Lotsa plurality systems like ours discovered plurality

after

mafia so view plurality at least partially through the lens of being essentially a permanent hydra. Ask every time is best policy.

Is it crazy to say I think a scum voted ox?

Not at all, I just feel it's not Arko.

{Arko}
{Aisa, Vanderscamp}
{Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{KawaiiKame}
{Oclaxian Empire}
{BloodB0t}

[Oclaxian Empire]

why do u not think arko?

[Vanderscamp]

(I guess that’s the challenge of a hydra account) so not sure why arko would be singled out for it.

Also technically not a hydra in the typical sense - its more akin to a meatspace hydra. We’re a system, meaning there’s multiple people in our head, who all have are their own unique identity.

I kinda instinctually know what Grim’s going at when posting, but not 100% certain, but we normally have notes for each other to read and play off of.

If you're one person why do you have a main account?

[Vanderscamp]

grim: fwiw, i expect the rvs vote to change, and i dont realistically think ull die from my vote, but it did elicit a reaction from u and that’s the thing i wanted from u.

Strong read that OE and Arko are not scum together, I don't think you say "I don't think you'll die from my vote" if your plan is to bus.

Tell me more?

Spoiler:

grim: i’m calling it’s e-2 so scum cant quickhammer. i dont like

ur phrasing of “its technically NAI”

like it implies that there’s somehow a chance its townie in this setup to setup spec.

realistically, the only setup spec that actually matters is

if it’s better to townhunt or scumhunt the whole game

bc trying to switch between both seems like a bit much.

also, ur reaction to my e-2 vote is interesting and i wanna think abt it.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire For

nitpicking

and

creating a false dichotomy

.

Personally I think we should scumhunt on days we will be sending people to hell and townhunt on days we will be sending people to heaven, and that people's preferences on this don't really matter all that much. I say take the approach that works best for you.

I also thought Arko's 'reaction' was another NAI thing, and your approach here seems a bit forced.

^ is town.

I TL Bella for this. Stating a read early on, and I, too, understand.

I think I understand Ranger's perspective that BloodB0t could be distancing, too. Idk my read on Blood overall though. I considered Oclaxian Empire + Arko scum together, seems like page 3 could be playful ribbing between teammates. Ironically I think Ranger could also be scum looking for an angle, partnered with one or more of {BloodB0t, Oclaxian Empire, Arko}.

The only actual read I have is the Bella townlean, the rest are scenarios I'm musing but I have no take on their relative likelihood.

You think page 3 sounded like playful ribbing?

I didn't get that impression at all.

Sorry, I originally skimmed page 3 but on a more careful reread "playful ribbing" is not the right description.

Yeah whoops. Initially I had looked at a few posts and my brain decided that the rest of the interaction must have been more of the same.

Do you still want me to tell you more?

I think my first post summed up my point and I think their interactions since then where Ox seemed very annoyed just strengthen my read, and I think it's fairly clear.

[Alianna]

~•~