Weird Dreams Mafia I [Gone]

[Porkens]

Also it is gut! They say a bunch of stuff, that stuff could be town or scum, but feel it’s scum.

[TemporalLich]

well there's also 535 so I saw a pattern or at least I thought I did

but yeah that was an unintentional exaggeration

pedit: I mean I guess that makes sense, but that doesn't discredit a read so a push based on that would just be strange

[Porkens]

That’s fine that’s fine. Let’s keep goin

[Empathice]

Porkens's content could be either alignment. Hypocrisy is (sadly) not

inherently

a scumtell. Being disingenuous is (sadly) not a scumtell. Having random takes which largely feel out of touch is not a scumtell. The main reason I feel Porkens is scum is he seems "off". His approach is heavyhanded, forced, and feels entirely artificial.

His content could come from either alignment.
The tone behind it makes me feel it's +scum.

This particular hypocrisy is very open and indicates a lack of self-consciousness that I find to be towny/TWTBAW.

Lumping TemporalLich (one of the most efforting slots in the game who looks plenty town) in with Porkens (whose posts are filled with far less effort and is a main suspect) with the same exact justification (too wolf to be wolf) is a take I can't grasp.

Use the aforementioned "looks like they are solving but aren't solving" scumtell and look at TL. Their reads are the least genuine of anyone in this game. I Still believe they are probably town regardless though.

[Ranger]

So you are just gut reading me in 1000 words, cool.

Not exactly.

I believe your actions are +scum regardless of alignment.

Your continued disingenuity (including 569) is a scum trait.
Your reads are suspect.
Your approach is suspect.

In spite of these being scum traits I feel are pro-scum, these don't inherently make you scum. I can see how they can form from a town player, despite their scummy nature.

Through the lens of everything, I still feel the most likely conclusion is you being scum.

This is in large part substantiated by gut, because by tone, your posts feel like scum.

Gut is a contributor.
Tone is a contributor.
The content being +scum is a contributor.
The volume of +scum content is a contributor.
The disingenuity is a contributor.

It's not one thing.
It is a compilation of everything.

It's far from slam-dunk, but it warrants a vote until/unless I find something more definitive.

[Ranger]

Use the aforementioned "looks like they are solving but aren't solving" scumtell and look at TL. Their reads are the least genuine of anyone in this game. I Still believe they are probably town regardless though.

Disagreed. I explained why I think TemporalLich's content is genuine solving, and that has only continued with his further posting.

Porkens on the other hand I don't buy as lacking self-awareness.

Porkens is a veteran on this site with hundreds of games, who has had time to develop a level of self-awareness. A seeming display of lack of consciousness is thus, something I find more likely to be deliberate.

Simply put, Porkens has been playing this game long enough to have a high level of self-consciousness. An apparent lack of it is far more likely to be deliberate. A deliberate lack of self-consciousness can be a playstyle choice, but I don't think it's actually Porkens's playstyle choice as town. Ergo, deliberate lack of self-consciousness makes me think Porkens is scum.

[Korina]

VC 1.15

Doctor Drew (5, E-4):

MegAzumarill, Botanical Rat, Clone, DragonEater70, Empathice, TemporalLich

DragonEater70 (2):

Enchant, Doctor Drew

Porkens (2):

Save the Dragons, Ranger

Gimli (2):

Korina

imaginality (1):

Gimli

TemporalLich (1):

imaginality

Botanical Rat (1):

Flea The Magician

Save The Dragons (1):

Morning Tweet

Ranger (1):

Porkens

Flea The Magician (0):

Enchant (0):

Morning Tweet (0):

Clone (0):

KawaiiKame (0):

MegAzumarill (0):

Empathice (0):

Kyoko Kirigiri (0):

Not Voting (2):

KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri

With

17

known votes, it takes

9

of them to achieve a majority.

Deadline is in:

(expired on 2023-03-22 16:20:00)

Moderator Notes:

- Please let me know if there are any errors in any VCs. These are hard to make, and I am prone to errors as a result.
- biancospino of Botanical Rat is V/LA until Monday.
- Porkens replaces Nono.

Nightmare

Kyoko Kirigi is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (1), Flea the Magician (1)

Enchant is voting for:

Enchant (1)

MegAzumarill is voting for:

MegAzumarill (1)

imgainality is voting for:

imaginality (1), Morning Tweet (1), DragonEater70 (2), Enchant (2)

Save the Dragons is voting for:

Save the Dragons (3), Enchant (4), Gimli (3), Botanical Rat (3)

Doctor Drew is voting for:

Gimli (+), MegAzumarill (+), Botanical Rat (+)

KawaiiKame is voting for:

Botanical Rat (x), Empathice (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (+), Ranger (+), Save the Dragons (+), TemporalLich (+), KawaiiKame (x)

Flea The Magician is voting for:

Flea The Magician (x), Gimli (x), Save The Dragons (+), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), TemporalLich (+)

Morning Tweet is voting for:

TemporalLich, (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), Gimli (x), DragonEater70 (+), Doctor Drew (x)

TemporalLich is voting for:

Save the Dragons (x), KawaiiKame (x), Gimli (x), Ranger (x), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+) || Doctor Drew (-)

Porkens is voting for:

Doctor Drew (+), TemporalLich (+), Morning Tweet (+)

Gimli is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (+), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+), TemporalLich (+), Gimli (+)

DragonEater70 is voting for:

TemporalLich (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), Morning Tweet (x), Gimli (+), DragoEater70 (x), Empathice (x), Ranger (x) || KawaiiKame (-)

Empathice is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (+), imaginality (+), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+), Botanical Rat (+), KawaiiKame (+), TemporalLich (+), Empathice (+)

Ranger is voting for:

Doctor Drew (x), Botanical Rat (x), TemporalLich (!), DragonEater70 (x), Ranger (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (+), Save the Dragons (x)

Current tallies are:

Confirmed:

8 Votes:

TemporalLich, DragonEater70, Kyoko Kirigiri,

7 Votes:

Gimli, Morning Tweet

6 Votes:

Botanical Rat

5 Votes:

Save The Dragons, Enchant,

4 Votes:

Ranger, Empathice

3 Votes:

Doctor Drew, KawaiiKame

2 Votes:

Flea the Magician, MegAzumarill

1 Vote:

imaginality

With

17

votes present, it takes

9

of them to ensure someone runs the nightmare.

At day end, TemporalLich is guaranteed to Run The Nightmare.[/i]

You may now reference my key, since I figured out how to make it work. A "+" means this player gained a vote, a "x" means this player remained neutral in number of votes, and a "-" means this player lost a vote. The double lines show who this player unvoted last. This effects VC 1.10 and onwards.

Pronoun Key

Korina - They/Them
Maruchan - She/Her
DragonEater70 - He/Him
Porkens - He/Him
Clone - He/Him
Save The Dragons - He/Him
Botanical Rat - They/Them || He/She
Radical Rat - They/Them
biancospino - He/She
Gimli - He/Him
Ranger - She/Her
Flea The Magician - Fae/Faer
KawaiiKame - No preference.
MegAzumarill - No preference.
Doctor Drew - He/Him
TemporalLich - No preference.
Morning Tweet - She/Her
Enchant - No preference.
Empathice - He/They
imaginality - He/They
Kyoko Kirigiri - She/Her

[Gimli]

Use the aforementioned "looks like they are solving but aren't solving" scumtell and look at TL. Their reads are the least genuine of anyone in this game. I Still believe they are probably town regardless though.

Disagreed. I explained why I think TemporalLich's content is genuine solving, and that has only continued with his further posting.

Porkens on the other hand I don't buy as lacking self-awareness.

Porkens is a veteran on this site with hundreds of games, who has had time to develop a level of self-awareness. A seeming display of lack of consciousness is thus, something I find more likely to be deliberate.

Simply put, Porkens has been playing this game long enough to have a high level of self-consciousness. An apparent lack of it is far more likely to be deliberate. A deliberate lack of self-consciousness can be a playstyle choice, but I don't think it's actually Porkens's playstyle choice as town. Ergo, deliberate lack of self-consciousness makes me think Porkens is scum.

I think it's scummy of empathice to be trying to equate playing styles as different as what TL and porkens have showed in this game and argue that they're both TWTBAW.

I also find empathice's emphasis on calling things twtbaw lamist etc to be >rand scum, as he seems to be simplistically labelling different complex behaviour in a way that's not conducive to solving the game.

[Gimli]

actually I think it was imaginality who made the LAMIST comments. lemme check

[Gimli]

ah, yeah. also imaginality's ISO is terrible, maybe more people should be voting him.

[Gimli]

I'm actually fine with empathice's posting, I was confusing him with a different player clearly. at any rate I disagree that TL has been twtbaw and I think that's a wild perception.

[Gimli]

I've decided that I'm fine with ranger's posting now, I find the hypersolve to be a townie trait in general and her push on porkens seems to come from a very honest place. I maintain that her stances on enchant are offputting enough to keep me only tentatively townreading the slot, but I like the things I'm seeing from her now.

[MegAzumarill]

you're really gonna make me have to play this d1 aren't you kyoko

hood <<<< vig, no? why would you prefer a hood over a vig instead?

You really shpuld be playing D1 when it's your town meta to be very active D1. Idk why town you wouldn't want to play D1.

This just screamed of 'hey fellow scum, don't act so scummy'

Dislike this read and subsequent vote.

MT replied to this thinking it was a towny way of thinking but it feels like a pointless shade here.

Kyoko's thoughts here (p17) flow well logically and it feels more inclined to genuine solving pointing out nuance (such as with pointing out drew's inclusions for nightmare)

Gimli's meta-read on Drew feels faulty, Drew seems similar to the last Kornia game (GrandI) so I wouldn't say its outside of thhe scumrange.

#422 has a really forced use of the word nightmare from imaginality. Feels possibly like a signal which makes my mind jump to traitor as from the OP bad dreams are the scumteam.

433

Would love an explanation of this read, at least in 1-2 sentences.

I don't think scum really has motivation to double down like you have on your initial stance on rvs/half/rvs/etc. It feels like scum have no reason to keep pushing it when it obviously isn't going over well with the game in general and brought attention to your slot. There's also a good amount of proactivity (even more so at this point in the game) I think is more common in town.

Unless ya'll are actually interested in these ISO's.

I mean it'd probably be good for reading you if nothing else.


TL I feel more hesitant to townread at this point as it feels like in general to be as least controversial as possible and it feels like it could be scum blending in.

There's no actual reason for the huge shift of enchant in #443 by Ranger and that feels like a genuine town realization. Enchant Ranger S/S also works though, but I'd doubt an Ranger!scum, Enchant!town.

Kinda liking GImli's thoughts on 443 but disagree. Superficially scumsolving I don't think that much would be made that dramatically.

Dislike #487. Drew talks about ruffling feathers being a part of his playstyle as well as dramatic entrances (for paraphrase). That really doesn't seem to be true and it doesn't feels like a genuine sentiment because I don't think its really true. At least in vibes I agree with liking Porkens entrance at least.

491 feels wordy. -MT

Empath feels similar to where my head is throughout a lot of this. I'm curious if the reasonings are similar.

[MegAzumarill]

Doctor Drew / TL are the only ones I really have to say anything negative about but I'm more interested in the slots that have nothing defining about them.


@ Empath could you elaborate your reads more? I want to get a good idea where your head is at.

VOTE: Kawaii

[MegAzumarill]

HURT: MegA, Porkens, Ranger,

Interested what people think about the possible Imaginality signaling.

[MegAzumarill]

imaginality has really bad pushes and the lack of activity is starting to be very concerning... the lack of any townreads whatsoever only compounds my scumread on imaginality

Gimli has a familiar towny vibe to me and his thoughtstream posts feel like they are town thoughts... idk I could maybe point to 231 and 347 as posts that are archetypal of the vibe I get

so yeah, Gimli is my top read (though Doctor Drew is very close) and imaginality is my bottom read

TemporalLich is just annoyed I caught them.

Busy weekend here, I have time my Monday to catch up more.

I start off slow in large games but when I'm given the chance to get into the game I can be as powerful as a Nightmare.

[MegAzumarill]

HURT: MegA, Porkens, Ranger, DragonEater

[DragonEater70]

Doctor Drew - On initial read, I felt this was town Drew. Scum Drew feels more manipulative in my experience. However, on reread iso, I do see a couple scum indicators (there's a very suspicious "lol" in 402)
TemporalLich - Like obviously trying to solve in a protown way from the very beginning.
Morning Tweet - Again vibes felt this was town MT. Scum MT has less to contirbute.

Gimli - Not sure why I thought Gimli was townlean. Entrance is super scummy. Later on seemed to be engaging but I can't say it's super duper town. Tinfoil hat says DragonEater asked specifically for my top four reads to make me enforce their scumpartner's townread.
Enchant
imaginality
Flea The Magician

DragonEater70
MegAzumarill

KawaiiKame
Empathice
Save the Dragons
Kyoko Kirigiri - grilling like making sandwiches. It just catches me wrong like presuming they can figure out the setup by asking questions.

Botanical Rat (Radical Rat + biancospino) - first few posts feel very VERY "pressure of speech" motivated (scum just talking to talk, "oh hey look at that duck" kinda stuff)
Clone - one post very scummy thats all
Ranger - already explained

I would actually like your reasoning for bottom 4 reads (I find Kyoko's position especially curious) and top 4 reads as well.
I believe you that you read 19 pages, but if there's no reasoning it does feel a bit scummy and weird.

To be honest this feels like a busywork assignment, butt sure. See above.

Look, it's all gut at this point I don't have solves or reasons beyond that. I read, I color coded, that's what you got. Now I'm under fire and feel like welp that's is what it is. Hope that helps.

Okay I kinda like Porkens now. I really do feel that these are honest reads.
Your take on Kyoko is very onteresting and I might need to reevaluate my read on them since they are currently my top townread.
As to Gimli, if anything I wanted you to think ab9ut their townread more critically because I myself don't really like my TR on them.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: MegA, Porkens, Ranger,

Interested what people think about the possible Imaginality signaling.

What do you mean by signaling?

[MegAzumarill]

HURT: MegA, Porkens, Ranger,

Interested what people think about the possible Imaginality signaling.

What do you mean by signaling?

Imaginality's use of nightmare. Feels like the kind of post I'd make if I was trying to tell my mafia budfies I was a traitor.

A. Throwaway post that won't be quoted or really brought up.
B. Use of a word not really perfectly fit into the sentence "Powerful as a nightmare" that's not a phrase I've ever heard before and it feels like another phrase better expresses it.
C. Plausible deniability- not explicitly provable like some crumbs are as well as the nightmare mechanic make it plausibly deniable to fit in context so it isn't an autolim if caught while being obvious for scum to spot.

Feels like the type of role crumb post I'd make in a normal tbh.

[MegAzumarill]

The rest of the iso though brief seems null to town so I'm not really sure.

[imaginality]

I keep looking for reasons not to keep voting TemporalLich and they keep disappointing me.

@Gimli I don't use acronyms much but in that case was pointing out the hypocrisy of TemporalLich being LAMIST with their reply to Kawaii's question about what LAMIST means. So it amused me to use that phrase there.

I too am troubled by Empathice having me high in his townreads. In conjunction with telling me TemporalLich is too wolfy to be scum it feels like maybe hoping to sway me away from voting TemporalLich?

I don't see Porkens as scummy. I think I'd rather keep Porkens here a few more days because I feel like they are good at ruffling people's feathers compared to giving scum an easy ride.

I feel like Flea drove things more as town in the other game I was in with faer. Not sure that the difference is AI though but interested in thoughts of others who know Flea's meta betta.

112 and 268 from Meg are bad (both wishywashy fencesitty stuff) and if I wasn't still happy voting TemporalLich I'd probably be voting Meg instead.

Oh and I see Meg's fishing as well... yeah, VOTE: MegAzumarill

(P-edit: random fact of the day: the [post] tag only seems to work with 'post' written in lower case.)

[DragonEater70]

I agree that there's a bit too much emphasis on "solving" as town indicator. That's why I am not TRing some players who are "solving" but only people who actually sound townie.

Tangent: defining "solving" here is important to understand the difference.

I agree 'sounds solvey' is not a town indicator and shouldn't be used to clear someone. All players try to sound solvey as scum. In fact, sounding solvey is actually a scumtell.

I disagree

solving

isn't a town indicator. Solving shows signs demonstrating their solvey sounds are genuine.

Looking like they are solvey without solving is a scumtell.
Genuinely attempting to solve is a towntell.

Still, people sounding townie is a huge aspect of my reads as well--and can actually be a contributing factor in determining the difference between the two.

Okay yeah, this is much better put than how I said it. And I agree with the idea.
That's exactly why I SR DD though: they SOUND solvey, perhaps, but have they done anything at all to solve anything? Really not.
I don't see a world where town just puts a bunch of people into the nightmare and leaves it at that, except in order to make a very strechy (or do you call that "reachy" here? Not sure if it's the same thing), out of context scumread, and then give uo the push without any indication that they were satisfied with the defense. That's not an attempt to solve the game IMO.

With that in mind, apt demonstration:

(snip)

This list start to finish tanks my townread because while I can see the thought behind it possibly being town, the nature of it feels very,

very

"off".

Putting Kyoko that high is fine; her company being MT and

imaginality

of all people is very suspect.

Lumping TemporalLich (one of the most efforting slots in the game who looks plenty town) in with Porkens (whose posts are filled with far less effort and is a main suspect) with the same exact justification (too wolf to be wolf) is a take I can't grasp.

You are right, there is something off there. Though I disagree about Imaginality being scummy, but that's another subject entirely.

[MegAzumarill]

I keep looking for reasons not to keep voting TemporalLich and they keep disappointing me.

@Gimli I don't use acronyms much but in that case was pointing out the hypocrisy of TemporalLich being LAMIST with their reply to Kawaii's question about what LAMIST means. So it amused me to use that phrase there.

I too am troubled by Empathice having me high in his townreads. In conjunction with telling me TemporalLich is too wolfy to be scum it feels like maybe hoping to sway me away from voting TemporalLich?

I don't see Porkens as scummy. I think I'd rather keep Porkens here a few more days because I feel like they are good at ruffling people's feathers compared to giving scum an easy ride.

I feel like Flea drove things more as town in the other game I was in with faer. Not sure that the difference is AI though but interested in thoughts of others who know Flea's meta betta.

112 and 268 from Meg are bad (both wishywashy fencesitty stuff) and if I wasn't still happy voting TemporalLich I'd probably be voting Meg instead.

Oh and I see Meg's fishing as well... yeah, VOTE: MegAzumarill

(P-edit: random fact of the day: the [post] tag only seems to work with 'post' written in lower case.)

Define fishing

[DragonEater70]

well there's also 535 so I saw a pattern or at least I thought I did

but yeah that was an unintentional exaggeration

pedit: I mean I guess that makes sense, but that doesn't discredit a read so a push based on that would just be strange

I think you are misunderstanding 535, they are no accusing you of gutreading them but are saying that it's weird/unfair you are allowed gutreads and they're attacked for having gutreads.