Mini 2293: Death Note. Postgame!

[Black]

I would go out on a limb and say that StD claiming a follower at the time that he did would be against the rules if he actually was a follower. Maybe someone with more site knowledge can tell me if I'm wrong?

If we assume StD is telling the truth here then the game was steering toward a Kira win after Gimli figured him out and I caught on. Him claiming to get people to unvote him and basically clear himself from the Kira PoE would be actively working against his win condition. What if town then digs through the thread and lims Kira in this scenario? Everyone would just be cool with StD losing the game for Kira because he was bored?

Idk how this all works but this just can't be right

[Kokichi Oma]

I would go out on a limb and say that StD claiming a follower at the time that he did would be against the rules if he actually was a follower. Maybe someone with more site knowledge can tell me if I'm wrong?

I would say no, since he would be playing toward his win con still

[Gimli]

yeah he can do that as literal follower, but it would make no sense. I think he is kira and I'm happy to lose if I'm wrong

[Black]

Ok I wasn't sure. Ty for the clarifications

[Gimli]

std/hpe relationship only works when hpe is follower and std is kira

and if hpe isnt kira, then std claimed for no reason. to help us catch real kira? in case it was like lorne/meg. he'd either let town kill him or let town kill hpe.

[Black]

That's what I'm feeling

[Gimli]

yeah actually there are situations where claiming follower as follower is against his wincon as follower. especifically if kira is lorne/meg, or someone outside of me/hpe, cause the flip was going inside (me, std, hpe) before he claimed. if kira is outside this pool, then claiming follower at that point as follower is working against your wincon.

[Black]

HPE sent the message anonymously to try to persuade the town to vote Gimli. Then snapped defended StD the moment someone suspected him

[Black]

Btw I poked holes all throughout HPE's case why StD can't be Kira. And also find it weird that HPE thought StD was lying about the follower claim at first?

It's these two. And it has to be StD Kira imo

[Gimli]

gimli redemption ark imo

[Black]

gimli redemption ark imo

Yeah I think you should probably get MVP but I still hate you for pushing my detective to death

[Black]

If you are right here then serious props to you Gimli. I wouldn't have gotten out of my tunnel if you didn't point out that HPE could be a follower

[Gimli]

yeah its my bad re: malakittens

if hpe is kira then I'll get something else postgame ain't I lmao

but I think we got this...

[Black]

Here's the timeline of StD's claim btw. He was under serious pressure here as a Kira suspect. This was his last hail mary.

Kira Fakeclaims Follower

#2014 - I say Gimli could be right about StD and declare my intent to dig through the thread

Spoiler: #2014

I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Gimli could be right here

I still think we take all the time in the world here. Let the inactives chime in and whatnot

I'm going to dig through the thread

#2016 - StD immediately responds and asks me why I think it's him. He doesn't want me to go through the thread

Spoiler: #2016

why do you think it's me, black

#2019 - I tell StD that I just think it could be him and want to look deeper

Spoiler: #2019

why do you think it's me, black

I just think it can be you. I disagree with HPE that you are clear and I want to take a deeper look

#2020 - StD immediately responds and asks if I have any thoughts about the current Gimli/StD conversation. Definitely doesn't want me to go through the thread. Instead he wants me to look at a conversation where he's using a meta argument to towncase himself

Spoiler: #2020

do you have any thoughts about my conversation with gimli right now

#2041 - Kawaii says he will case StD after I asked him to

Spoiler: #2041

*snip*

Kawaii I really like these little breakdowns. Could you do one for StD?

Yes, lemme get to it

#2047 and #2048 - Meg says there is room for StD Kira and puts him in her Kira PoE

Spoiler: #2047, #2048

There's room for it I suppose Kawaii said they'd lay out a case for it no?

Std/Gimli/HPE are the most likely trio fmpov

#2059 - Gimli narrows down his list of Kira candidates and basically reaches the conclusion it's StD

Spoiler: #2059

Spoiler: reading into vanderspew

its a lot of work. but there's some reads we can get out of this to come to a solve:

I thought kokichi might have been scum for the vote on black for the call for skill claims, but his response to me asking about it felt null

I get that sometimes the follower will throw some shade at kira so it won't look obvious, but you'll note how vanderscamp does it unnecessarily throughout the game. he really likes shading kokichi this game and I don't think you wanna go around shading your kira.

more importantly than me being wrong about your behaviour in that game,

So you admit your reasoning was wrong, but you think that I was trying to buddy both of you. I was going to vote StD until he reminded me I did that in Haunted, you were there that game so you should know I tunneled him all day 1 when we were both town. As for you, I don't townread you, I was just seeing if you'd do the same thing you always do.

All pushes on me are towny

Mafia too hard

VOTE: kokichi

You did this when I voted you when we were both town, so I wanted to see if you had the same reaction. Not if I was automatically going to think you were town for it.

If you didn't think he was town, and you phrased it as ""unvote," you did the same thing as town, I wanted to see if you would do the same thing as you did when you were town and you did," why wouldn't you clarify that that's not a town read?
Because it obviously looks like a town read.

this looks too strong to be pushing your kira with

Either way, i think Gimli is just hyper focused on me cause I had him completely fooled last game, or that could be just a facade. Not important right now.

VOTE: Azu

Why is it not important?

these are mean spirited questions, he wants to scumread koki with this

starting to have doubts on kokichi

gimli, why malakittens?

Thoughts on kokichi?

you wouldn't gamethrow by highlighting your kira to people, would you?

Okay it's independent of me. Then okay. And I don't think we're going to vote out Kawaii today anyway, so no point.

I'm actually just going to look through iso's and stop trying to defend myself cause my back and forth with you is distracting me too much.

I am extremely down to daykill Kawaii.

I don't like the fact that Kawaii has never responded to me calling out that post I thought was scummy, or asked me about my vote.

At this point a daykill on Kawaii doesn't feel necessary.

Sinking into background is feeling more and more like a scum thing to this one but even if we condemn them in a day or two it honestly doesn't think it would be worth it especially for the detective reveal. And then there's the aspect of when you wait multiple days, the gamestate and what we know and who's scummiest will change. Condemn now = Total gamble, condemn later = We don't even know if we'd want to at that point.

Thus if you want Kawaii dead NOW, vote them.

Though again this one prefers dragging the game days out for max discussion and analysis.

Besides the bold part. What is this even saying? Seems like you're talking just to talk. The first post that's not about me is like you're trying to sound like you're saying something without saying anything.

I'll retract my scum read on your Kawaii defence then if you hadn't seen this post.

The game will not end if Kawaii is elim'd, I'm pretty sure.

Why?

Because I think he's town

Can you explain why?

Okay it's independent of me. Then okay. And I don't think we're going to vote out Kawaii today anyway, so no point.

I'm actually just going to look through iso's and stop trying to defend myself cause my back and forth with you is distracting me too much.

I am extremely down to daykill Kawaii.

I don't like the fact that Kawaii has never responded to me calling out that post I thought was scummy, or asked me about my vote.

At this point a daykill on Kawaii doesn't feel necessary. Sinking into background is feeling more and more like a scum thing to this one but even if we condemn them in a day or two it honestly doesn't think it would be worth it especially for the detective reveal. And then there's the aspect of when you wait multiple days, the gamestate and what we know and who's scummiest will change. Condemn now = Total gamble, condemn later = We don't even know if we'd want to at that point. Thus if you want Kawaii dead NOW, vote them. Though again this one prefers dragging the game days out for max discussion and analysis.

I am voting them.

I also don't understand this defence, this feels very follower to Kawaii Kira esque.

Why does this feel very follower to me = Kira esque?

Because I don't think HPE's post makes any sense at all, you could basically sub in any name for yours and the post would be exactly the same. The only place HPE talks about you specifically is mentioning that you have been scummy.

this is probably too strong to be a push on kira

I would like some thoughts from players not named Gimli. Do we think this post could come from Kira or nah?

Spoiler: For kira's eyes only

You should definitely swap with me so I can kill people with the death note tonight.
I known it seems silly but consider the following pros and cons.

Pros

- If I am VT, it frames me and you appear innocent.
If I am a Kira follower, I would kill a townie and you would be fine.
If I am a power role, I'm likely killing a townie instead of whatever I'm supposed to be doing.
The frame is permanent.
It would be funny.
Literally noone would believe you actually did this and I would likely be limmed tomorrow for claiming it happened, assuming I am town.

Cons

There is an incredibly low chance you die to your own Death Note, although this would be a funny outcome.
You don't choose who dies n1.


Pros seem to be outweighing the cons here.
And I got my fanciest pen <3

Yes, I think it's the kind of thing Meg could have thought of before seeing their role.

thats potentially good for meg, but its thin.

I see you're keeping up with voting everyone to make yourself seem not sure again.

This reads as fake

again throwing too much shade at kokichi

I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post, there's just no way

I think koki is spewed not kira here.

I mean if you are are follower you would want to defend gimli, and he would have no way to know it is you?
Are you not defending gimli's case on you?

It's plausible imo, I don't really think it's reality.

I am defending since I feel it's genuinely town, I want to eliminate who I see as town so I can find Kira, I don't see Gimli as Kira, I was down to eliminate Gimli at one point when he was pursuing me but my mind changed as his mind changed on me...
I see why you see why you think I might be Gimli's follower, yeah,
What do you really think is reality? I want to eliminate Kira

To be honest, I'm not sure
It's a tough game
Gut says it's a slot not getting high attention (Std/Mala/Vander/HPE) But I townread most of that list to some degree

Wow, you townread that list?
Because I don't think that's a very towny list of players at all and I'm in it.

So your scum is in Gimli/Kawaii/kokichi/black?

maybe good for meg?

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think Gimli is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think Kawaii is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like Mala's reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought STD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like kokichi's continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think black and lorne are town and everyone else is null.

more spewing kokichi as not kira. defense of std seems a bit exaggerated, but i dont think its necessarily +kira for std either. vanderscamp has been hard tring town too.

koki is never kira
hpe looks good cause vander pushed hpe
meg also looks okay
std and lorne feel more likely as the kira to how vander played the game.

#2061 - I make my associative case between Vander and StD

Spoiler: #2061

Is StD Kira?

First I think it will be helpful to look at all interactions and mentions of StD from Vander, a confirmed follower

#236 - the first time Vander acknowledges StD. In this post Vander is asking StD what his thoughts on Kokichi are. This could be follower trying to gauge where his Kira stands on a slot. What I find weird is StD already made it clear how he felt about Kokichi in #191 so why is Vander trying to get more here? For what it's worth, StD doesn't answer this question. Instead he just votes for Kokichi in #282
#378 - Vander agrees with StD here about Kokichi probably not being Kira. Not much to gain from this I don't think. Could be a follower trying to force another interaction with his Kira so that he doesn't seem too distant
#763 - Vander asks StD why he doesn't think Lorne or mala could be Kira. This feels similar to 236 above where it feels like Vander is trying to figure out StD's thoughts on people. Kinda feels like subtle PR hunting and Vander asking the one person he knows is scum their thoughts. StD answers this in #762 and says that he TRs mala because of the way she has handled herself
#771 - Vander asks StD to elaborate

even more

and says he doesn't understand the mala read despite ALSO townreading her two times earlier for behavioral stuff. This implies Vander understands the TR but he's trying to get more information out of StD. He's PR hunting
#784 - Vander asking StD why mala can't be scum here
#1029 - Vander still pressuring StD about the mala townread. Very odd stuff considering he townread two of mala's posts earlier. These last 4 interactions seem very forced so that when someone goes back and looks at them they can say "Vander pushed StD, no way StD is Kira". This isn't pushing at all. It's Vander begging StD to elaborate on a TR
#1059 - Vander disagrees with StD that Gimli might be a follower to Kira!Kawaii
#1080 - this one is short and I think pretty important so I'm posting it: "I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post" ......wait what? Vander actually says here that he was considering "moving to StD" after no previous expression of suspicion or anything. The only thing Vander has been saying in regards to StD is how he doesn't understand StD's mala TR. This is clearly distancing throwing StD's name in here
#1091 - Vander says he suddenly remembers why StD townread mala. Yeah...ok...

The next post is Vander's reads list. I've bolded and highlighted the part about StD:

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think Gimli is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think Kawaii is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like Mala's reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought STD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like kokichi's continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think black and lorne are town and everyone else is null.

^^
This is really weird btw. Extremely shallow read on StD. Just a few posts before this Vander was "considering moving to StD" today but here he's just like "uh I like StD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago"

These are all the interactions from Vander to StD. My first reaction is I can't believe HPE has cleared StD over this

I think I want to look at HPE to StD next

#2065 - I break down HPE's case on why StD can't be Kira. Keep in mind that HPE has walked back most of this case of his in recent posts. Strong indication HPE is StD's follower

Spoiler: #2065

Do your ass an ISO read and you'll see that

StD and Vanderscamp agree like, once

. Vanderscamp calls StD's reaction good and then

most of their interactions are disagreements

,

Vander including StD in solve lists for Kira/Followers

, and

by the end during twilight just openly saying that he thinks StD is a Follower to a lying Kira!Mala

. They have zero synergy, yet nor are they keeping distance.

Wait, this is extremely telling from HPE here. It clearly did the research (or knows what it is talking about) regarding Vander/StD interactions. This is seriously why you don't think StD could be Vander's Kira? It's the most surface level thing you could possibly say about someone in a reads list. There isn't even a read here...it's just "I agree with one thing StD said".

It was a few times actually

They don't have many interactions at all and I wouldn't say that most of them are disagreements. You can read my post on StD a bit ago but most of the interactions were Vander trying to get StD to explain his mala read and then going "oh ok I remember you saying that" when he finally does

He actually TRed StD in 1451. Also what are you saying here really? I don't see StD in any solve lists for Kira/Followers, can you point these out?

Where did this happen??

#2067 - I vote for StD

#2068 - StD immediately responds and starts the counterclaim process. He was reading along as the pressure grew right in front of his eyes

Spoiler: #2068

ugh

you're making this so boring

should i make it interesting?

[Gimli]

Here's the timeline of StD's claim btw. He was under serious pressure here as a Kira suspect. This was his last hail mary.

Kira Fakeclaims Follower

#2014 - I say Gimli could be right about StD and declare my intent to dig through the thread

Spoiler: #2014

I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Gimli could be right here

I still think we take all the time in the world here. Let the inactives chime in and whatnot

I'm going to dig through the thread

#2016 - StD immediately responds and asks me why I think it's him. He doesn't want me to go through the thread

Spoiler: #2016

why do you think it's me, black

#2019 - I tell StD that I just think it could be him and want to look deeper

Spoiler: #2019

why do you think it's me, black

I just think it can be you. I disagree with HPE that you are clear and I want to take a deeper look

#2020 - StD immediately responds and asks if I have any thoughts about the current Gimli/StD conversation. Definitely doesn't want me to go through the thread. Instead he wants me to look at a conversation where he's using a meta argument to towncase himself

Spoiler: #2020

do you have any thoughts about my conversation with gimli right now

#2041 - Kawaii says he will case StD after I asked him to

Spoiler: #2041

*snip*

Kawaii I really like these little breakdowns. Could you do one for StD?

Yes, lemme get to it

#2047 and #2048 - Meg says there is room for StD Kira and puts him in her Kira PoE

Spoiler: #2047, #2048

There's room for it I suppose Kawaii said they'd lay out a case for it no?

Std/Gimli/HPE are the most likely trio fmpov

#2059 - Gimli narrows down his list of Kira candidates and basically reaches the conclusion it's StD

Spoiler: #2059

Spoiler: reading into vanderspew

its a lot of work. but there's some reads we can get out of this to come to a solve:

I thought kokichi might have been scum for the vote on black for the call for skill claims, but his response to me asking about it felt null

I get that sometimes the follower will throw some shade at kira so it won't look obvious, but you'll note how vanderscamp does it unnecessarily throughout the game. he really likes shading kokichi this game and I don't think you wanna go around shading your kira.

more importantly than me being wrong about your behaviour in that game,

So you admit your reasoning was wrong, but you think that I was trying to buddy both of you. I was going to vote StD until he reminded me I did that in Haunted, you were there that game so you should know I tunneled him all day 1 when we were both town. As for you, I don't townread you, I was just seeing if you'd do the same thing you always do.

All pushes on me are towny

Mafia too hard

VOTE: kokichi

You did this when I voted you when we were both town, so I wanted to see if you had the same reaction. Not if I was automatically going to think you were town for it.

If you didn't think he was town, and you phrased it as ""unvote," you did the same thing as town, I wanted to see if you would do the same thing as you did when you were town and you did," why wouldn't you clarify that that's not a town read?
Because it obviously looks like a town read.

this looks too strong to be pushing your kira with

Either way, i think Gimli is just hyper focused on me cause I had him completely fooled last game, or that could be just a facade. Not important right now.

VOTE: Azu

Why is it not important?

these are mean spirited questions, he wants to scumread koki with this

starting to have doubts on kokichi

gimli, why malakittens?

Thoughts on kokichi?

you wouldn't gamethrow by highlighting your kira to people, would you?

Okay it's independent of me. Then okay. And I don't think we're going to vote out Kawaii today anyway, so no point.

I'm actually just going to look through iso's and stop trying to defend myself cause my back and forth with you is distracting me too much.

I am extremely down to daykill Kawaii.

I don't like the fact that Kawaii has never responded to me calling out that post I thought was scummy, or asked me about my vote.

At this point a daykill on Kawaii doesn't feel necessary.

Sinking into background is feeling more and more like a scum thing to this one but even if we condemn them in a day or two it honestly doesn't think it would be worth it especially for the detective reveal. And then there's the aspect of when you wait multiple days, the gamestate and what we know and who's scummiest will change. Condemn now = Total gamble, condemn later = We don't even know if we'd want to at that point.

Thus if you want Kawaii dead NOW, vote them.

Though again this one prefers dragging the game days out for max discussion and analysis.

Besides the bold part. What is this even saying? Seems like you're talking just to talk. The first post that's not about me is like you're trying to sound like you're saying something without saying anything.

I'll retract my scum read on your Kawaii defence then if you hadn't seen this post.

The game will not end if Kawaii is elim'd, I'm pretty sure.

Why?

Because I think he's town

Can you explain why?

Okay it's independent of me. Then okay. And I don't think we're going to vote out Kawaii today anyway, so no point.

I'm actually just going to look through iso's and stop trying to defend myself cause my back and forth with you is distracting me too much.

I am extremely down to daykill Kawaii.

I don't like the fact that Kawaii has never responded to me calling out that post I thought was scummy, or asked me about my vote.

At this point a daykill on Kawaii doesn't feel necessary. Sinking into background is feeling more and more like a scum thing to this one but even if we condemn them in a day or two it honestly doesn't think it would be worth it especially for the detective reveal. And then there's the aspect of when you wait multiple days, the gamestate and what we know and who's scummiest will change. Condemn now = Total gamble, condemn later = We don't even know if we'd want to at that point. Thus if you want Kawaii dead NOW, vote them. Though again this one prefers dragging the game days out for max discussion and analysis.

I am voting them.

I also don't understand this defence, this feels very follower to Kawaii Kira esque.

Why does this feel very follower to me = Kira esque?

Because I don't think HPE's post makes any sense at all, you could basically sub in any name for yours and the post would be exactly the same. The only place HPE talks about you specifically is mentioning that you have been scummy.

this is probably too strong to be a push on kira

I would like some thoughts from players not named Gimli. Do we think this post could come from Kira or nah?

Spoiler: For kira's eyes only

You should definitely swap with me so I can kill people with the death note tonight.
I known it seems silly but consider the following pros and cons.

Pros

- If I am VT, it frames me and you appear innocent.
If I am a Kira follower, I would kill a townie and you would be fine.
If I am a power role, I'm likely killing a townie instead of whatever I'm supposed to be doing.
The frame is permanent.
It would be funny.
Literally noone would believe you actually did this and I would likely be limmed tomorrow for claiming it happened, assuming I am town.

Cons

There is an incredibly low chance you die to your own Death Note, although this would be a funny outcome.
You don't choose who dies n1.


Pros seem to be outweighing the cons here.
And I got my fanciest pen <3

Yes, I think it's the kind of thing Meg could have thought of before seeing their role.

thats potentially good for meg, but its thin.

I see you're keeping up with voting everyone to make yourself seem not sure again.

This reads as fake

again throwing too much shade at kokichi

I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post, there's just no way

I think koki is spewed not kira here.

I mean if you are are follower you would want to defend gimli, and he would have no way to know it is you?
Are you not defending gimli's case on you?

It's plausible imo, I don't really think it's reality.

I am defending since I feel it's genuinely town, I want to eliminate who I see as town so I can find Kira, I don't see Gimli as Kira, I was down to eliminate Gimli at one point when he was pursuing me but my mind changed as his mind changed on me...
I see why you see why you think I might be Gimli's follower, yeah,
What do you really think is reality? I want to eliminate Kira

To be honest, I'm not sure
It's a tough game
Gut says it's a slot not getting high attention (Std/Mala/Vander/HPE) But I townread most of that list to some degree

Wow, you townread that list?
Because I don't think that's a very towny list of players at all and I'm in it.

So your scum is in Gimli/Kawaii/kokichi/black?

maybe good for meg?

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think Gimli is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think Kawaii is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like Mala's reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought STD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like kokichi's continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think black and lorne are town and everyone else is null.

more spewing kokichi as not kira. defense of std seems a bit exaggerated, but i dont think its necessarily +kira for std either. vanderscamp has been hard tring town too.

koki is never kira
hpe looks good cause vander pushed hpe
meg also looks okay
std and lorne feel more likely as the kira to how vander played the game.

#2061 - I make my associative case between Vander and StD

Spoiler: #2061

Is StD Kira?

First I think it will be helpful to look at all interactions and mentions of StD from Vander, a confirmed follower

#236 - the first time Vander acknowledges StD. In this post Vander is asking StD what his thoughts on Kokichi are. This could be follower trying to gauge where his Kira stands on a slot. What I find weird is StD already made it clear how he felt about Kokichi in #191 so why is Vander trying to get more here? For what it's worth, StD doesn't answer this question. Instead he just votes for Kokichi in #282
#378 - Vander agrees with StD here about Kokichi probably not being Kira. Not much to gain from this I don't think. Could be a follower trying to force another interaction with his Kira so that he doesn't seem too distant
#763 - Vander asks StD why he doesn't think Lorne or mala could be Kira. This feels similar to 236 above where it feels like Vander is trying to figure out StD's thoughts on people. Kinda feels like subtle PR hunting and Vander asking the one person he knows is scum their thoughts. StD answers this in #762 and says that he TRs mala because of the way she has handled herself
#771 - Vander asks StD to elaborate

even more

and says he doesn't understand the mala read despite ALSO townreading her two times earlier for behavioral stuff. This implies Vander understands the TR but he's trying to get more information out of StD. He's PR hunting
#784 - Vander asking StD why mala can't be scum here
#1029 - Vander still pressuring StD about the mala townread. Very odd stuff considering he townread two of mala's posts earlier. These last 4 interactions seem very forced so that when someone goes back and looks at them they can say "Vander pushed StD, no way StD is Kira". This isn't pushing at all. It's Vander begging StD to elaborate on a TR
#1059 - Vander disagrees with StD that Gimli might be a follower to Kira!Kawaii
#1080 - this one is short and I think pretty important so I'm posting it: "I was potentially moving to Mala/kokichi/std today until that post" ......wait what? Vander actually says here that he was considering "moving to StD" after no previous expression of suspicion or anything. The only thing Vander has been saying in regards to StD is how he doesn't understand StD's mala TR. This is clearly distancing throwing StD's name in here
#1091 - Vander says he suddenly remembers why StD townread mala. Yeah...ok...

The next post is Vander's reads list. I've bolded and highlighted the part about StD:

I kind of just want the day to end at this point, I feel like I'm just tunneling my reads harder and harder.

I still think Gimli is a pretty terrible lim, I think the way he's played is the kind of inconsistency that comes more often from passionate town than scum with an agenda.

I still don't think Kawaii is town, but I think other people sound scummy and I'm happy to entertain the possibility that I'm just really tunneled.


I didn't like Mala's reaction to Gimli at all, I feel like when someone calls you out as a TPR people react in several different ways. I think the towny way to react, regardless of whether you'reTPR or not, is to kind of play into it, like giving a wink emoji or joking about your vig target or something.
I think Mala's reaction was pretty scummy, like Mala seemed really annoyed in a really obviously "I'm a TPR" type way. I get that this may seem unhelpful to talk about, but it was imo so blatant that there's no chance anyone missed it, so I'm just going to talk about it. I basically feel like if you are what you're softing it doesn't make sense because you would not want to actually react in that way, and it didn't feel at all like a VT trying to take a bullet, so I think it was just scummy.

I thought STD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago was pretty good, I got the vibe from it that they actually believed what they were saying and weren't defending themselves just for the sake of defending themselves.

I really, really, really don't like kokichi's continual defence of "I literally can't be Kira" because it relies on the premise that followers would have just hard defended them facing an early D1, and the fact that no one did is clearing.
I don't really think this is something kokichi actually believes so it just reads as false.

Other than that, my non updated reads are that I think black and lorne are town and everyone else is null.

^^
This is really weird btw. Extremely shallow read on StD. Just a few posts before this Vander was "considering moving to StD" today but here he's just like "uh I like StD's reaction to Gimli a few pages ago"

These are all the interactions from Vander to StD. My first reaction is I can't believe HPE has cleared StD over this

I think I want to look at HPE to StD next

#2065 - I break down HPE's case on why StD can't be Kira. Keep in mind that HPE has walked back most of this case of his in recent posts. Strong indication HPE is StD's follower

Spoiler: #2065

Do your ass an ISO read and you'll see that

StD and Vanderscamp agree like, once

. Vanderscamp calls StD's reaction good and then

most of their interactions are disagreements

,

Vander including StD in solve lists for Kira/Followers

, and

by the end during twilight just openly saying that he thinks StD is a Follower to a lying Kira!Mala

. They have zero synergy, yet nor are they keeping distance.

Wait, this is extremely telling from HPE here. It clearly did the research (or knows what it is talking about) regarding Vander/StD interactions. This is seriously why you don't think StD could be Vander's Kira? It's the most surface level thing you could possibly say about someone in a reads list. There isn't even a read here...it's just "I agree with one thing StD said".

It was a few times actually

They don't have many interactions at all and I wouldn't say that most of them are disagreements. You can read my post on StD a bit ago but most of the interactions were Vander trying to get StD to explain his mala read and then going "oh ok I remember you saying that" when he finally does

He actually TRed StD in 1451. Also what are you saying here really? I don't see StD in any solve lists for Kira/Followers, can you point these out?

Where did this happen??

#2067 - I vote for StD

#2068 - StD immediately responds and starts the counterclaim process. He was reading along as the pressure grew right in front of his eyes

Spoiler: #2068

ugh

you're making this so boring

should i make it interesting?

yeah that's a very solid recap. so, let's win the game folks?

[Black]

Unofficial vote count:

With

8

votes in play, it takes

5

to execute someone.

Save The Dragons

(5): Gimli, Black, Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Kokichi Oma

Gimli

(1): MegAzumarill

Not Voting

(2): KawaiiKame, Not_Mafia

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-03-21 04:33:23).

Grace Period: No one can be hammered for (expired on 2023-03-14 04:33:23)

-----

We win after the grace period is over

[MegAzumarill]

I would prefer us not go to grace period. We have more to discuss here it feels like.

[Gimli]

I'm hanging out here for a bit if you wanna discuss this meg

I think HPE is voting std as a gambit. it'll unvote and do theatrics before we reach deadline, I'm sure.

[Gimli]

'I thought this over and I think it's just gimli!!!'

[Gimli]

note that HPE itself is talking about grace period. it knows what its doing.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Literally shaking with glee for when this flips and everyone finds out this one is town.

[Gimli]

well, as long as you're not kira

[Black]

Literally shaking with glee for when this flips and everyone finds out this one is town.

I can maybe see Kokichi as an StD follower but I haven't put much thought into it

[Gimli]

like hpe I think you can be town but even std thought you were a follower right now

I can see meg being std's follower instead actually, let's see how she evaluates things.

[Black]

I would prefer us not go to grace period. We have more to discuss here it feels like.

Not in my eyes. We win with an StD flip