Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Ranger]

Ranger wrote: ↑Today, 3:53 pm
I believe that being the last post before going to bed shows an insanely +town mindset
Can you elaborate on this?

I already did. I deliberately didn't reiterate because I had told you to read my posts in good faith, because had you, you'd have seen where I had.

[AurorusVox]

They had no issue putting ox at e-2
The latter post I quoted they’re saying “woah guys e-2 that’s way too quick” even tho they thought they’d done it themselves (and as you said, had no issue being at e-2 themselves earlier on)

Morning.
UNVOTE:
Ok... 3 Votes on ox already is way too quick. It took you guys only like 12 hours past my original vote. plus, BB was against ox too so they might of voted/hammered also. That's way too quick for a game with 3 scum vs 6.

[AurorusVox]

If they had no issue with it earlier why did they have an issue with it later?

[Ranger]

I'm starting to think BB/Ox might be 2 scum

Made a post about this, somehow got eaten.

This would be my read on them, yes.

I called BB/Ox's interactions theater.

Their current content suggests I was right.

[BloodB0t]

Ranger wrote: ↑Today, 3:53 pm
I believe that being the last post before going to bed shows an insanely +town mindset
Can you elaborate on this?

I already did. I deliberately didn't reiterate because I had told you to read my posts in good faith, because had you, you'd have seen where I had.

Sorry, I'm bad with walls of text. Can you just sum it up quickly for my simple brain?

BloodB0t wrote: ↑10 minutes ago
I just don't like Ranger's posts about you or Ox.
And what issues do you take with those takes specifically?

They seem overly complicated and defensive, and like I said earlier, coming from a perspective of TMI. I don't get the feeling of progression on them as I might from a townie trying to sort. Seems more like trying to justify previously made decisions than trying to sort.

[Aisa]

My read on Ranger is contingent on what Arko is at the moment, I think.

Bad approach tbh. My reads are fluid. Write a case on what makes Arko scum and I'll listen. You can convince me. I simply haven't been, because Arko's content is by far the towniest in the game imo.

Fair enough, yes. I'll reread Arko later and I don't know what read I'll end up with, but if it feels important to communicate I will communicate it.

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

Disagree that "has determined", "won't reevaluate" are stating that you're town, I think that I could easily use similar wording wrt someone I suspect.
I'm torn about your "least-flattering reading" point.

I know this isn't about Arko per se, we'll get to your case on Arko after this post.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

"Disingenuous" is a charged word, but change it to "imprecise" and I agree.

[Ranger]

If they had no issue with it earlier why did they have an issue with it later?

I see now.

That I admit I would be going out of my way to defend Arko to answer.

But sure, in for a penny in for a pound, the people saying I'm defending Arko too hard right now aren't exactly going to stop their TMI accusations so why not?

I think the key factor is 55. Specifically,

let them breath for some time before voting them.

Let OE breathe before voting them.

Between 55 and 118 was 95, and I can see Arko as town seeing that, knowing BloodB0t wanted to vote, and thinking this is a danger to ending the day too soon.

I admit that is a stretch. I had to strain my eyes to see it. To be honest I don't

really

believe it. I'm just being spiteful and doubling down on the defense.

Being more honest, that does demote Arko.

Spite-readslist would be,
{Arko, AurorusVox}
{Aisa}
{Bellaphant}
{KawaiiKame}
{Vanderscamp}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

...But I can't bring myself to actually commit to the spite. It's just not my thing.

So actual readslist would probably be closer to,

{AurorusVox}
{Aisa, Bellaphant}
{Arko}
{KawaiiKame, Vanderscamp}
{BloodB0t}
{Oclaxian Empire}

[Aisa]

[...]
As for Arko, I've vibed with them from the beginning. First page was just vibes of rvs + liking their mechtalk; the townread started in earnest from 26. Specifically,

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

I loved this thought process.

I liked the engagement in 41.
I liked the sentiment of 43/48/61/65.
54 is an approach I feel comes from a town mindset.
The explanation of 69 is an approach which is nai, but the context of sharing it makes me lean town. (Someone explaining their philosophy is nai in of itself. The context behind explaining the philosophy can be ai, in this case, +town.)
I felt 118 was a good approach upon returning to the thread.
154 is not a scum post.

There's good reason Arko's my top townread.
Near as I can tell, there's no reason for Arko to be scum.

Yeahhhh you know what, these are good points. Arko gets my townread!

[Vanderscamp]

Maybe we're talking about different posts?

That would not surprise me. Given I'm the one who wrote my posts tho, I trust my view on them more than yours.

This isn't true, though, right after you made your post that Ox was asking about, they questioned you about Arko being town, not the associative read.

That was a question about the associative, not a question about Arko being town.

I was asked why I didn't think Arko's vote on Oclaxian Empire was scum.

That wasn't a question about Arko's alignment.
That was a question about Arko's association with Oclaxian Empire.

The context was "Oclaxian Empire voters contain scum".
I specified 'maybe so, but not Arko'.
I was asked why not Arko.
I wasn't asked why Arko was town, or why Arko wasn't scum.
I was specifically asked why Arko wasn't scum voting Oclaxian Empire.

I answered the question given.

Again--if you think differently, you don't understand my brain neurology.

I reread this, you're right that Ox was probably asking about the associative read.

I have no idea why you wouldn't have put that in the big ranking post you made that Ox was responding to.

My default is readslists without commentary.

I add commentary when I think it pertinent, for things worth commenting on.
19/80/81 contain zero commentary.
82 contains one comment, disagreeing with the BloodB0t town callout.

86 is my first substantive post.

Then 119.

And then in 120 it was back to one comment, specifying I believe Arko wasn't scum on Oclaxian Empire. (A read previously talked about per 119.)

And more commentary in 149.

I comment on things worth responding to, as they pop up. I'm not inclined to react to nonexistent content.

Nobody asked me to explain my Arko townread until later. I explained it as soon as it was requested.
People did ask me to explain my "Arko is not scum with Oclaxian Empire" take. I explained each time it was asked.

If you take umbrage with my minimalism, there's a simple fix; ask and engage me. The fault doesn't lie with me for not inquiring into my posts.

But you aren't going into any detail about your reasoning, you're just calling all of his individual posts towny with different wording.

Yes?

That's still evolution in read. It's taking new information in. The new information might be reworded of prior info, which results in...

...Arko being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread,
Changing to being my top townread.

+Town actions build off of each other. One town action builds off of previous town actions.
Arko's posting has been +town throughout the game.

I also did explain my Arko read beyond using vibes though. Solving in 26 was actually +town specifically by dividing the scum up into "one not posted, two which have". That gives tangible analysis and the beginning of sorting.
It specifies 2 scum in {Arko, KawaiiKame, Oclaxian Empire, Vanderscamp, Aisa, AurorusVox, Ranger, Bellaphant} and 1 scum in...
{BloodB0t}.

I don't have a problem at all with your approach to giving your townreads or the amount that you've talked about them.

My problem with you is that I don't believe your townread on Arko is real.
For example, this post you just quoted, "tangible analysis?"
Either you've only played with the worst scum in the world, or #26 is the kind of thing that can be replicated extremely easily as scum.
I really just don't believe that all of these similarly generic posts from Arko are posts that you think are all towny.

I believe that being the last post before going to bed shows an insanely +town mindset, and given followthrough, would allow for further analysis and breakdown of those within, which Arko had already done on page one.

Like, I could take your explanations for your reads, choose a random player, and say the same thing about all of their posts and it could apply to them too.

Sure, but that'd make you a liar because those things wouldn't apply to their posts.

I don't agree, I could point to any game related post of any player and say I like the sentiment or engagement of it, or say it's coming from a towny place, and it would be just as meaningful.

What I don't believe is that you think every single one of those posts you quoted is individually towny, I don't think Arko's posts deserve that, and the reasoning you did give wasn't very compelling.
it just feels way too strong to be real.

You seem to have a very different view of my posts than reality.

I've repeatedly stated I'll listen to cases of Arko being scum.
None have responded to my offer.

It's not that Arko is strongly town.
I have Arko as town, but my reads are fluent enough I could be convinced otherwise.

It's that I think the

scumreads

are too strong to be real, because nobody has brought forth compelling arguments on Arko.
The burden of proof is on the accuser--not the accused.

The default is a slot (including Arko) being town, and Arko's posts support that to me.

When I feel Arko's posts are towny enough, and the default is town, then it is up to the accusers to convince me otherwise.

Nobody has even tried.

My main point is that I don't believe that you're reading all of the posts you quoted as towny, regardless of the strength of the read, but anyway, i think the lemon's post that it's weird for Arko to put someone at E-2, and then a day later say that we shouldn't be putting people at E-2, is a compelling case and possibly more alignment indicative than any of the posts you've quoted about Arko.
Thoughts on that?

[Aisa]

What is your read on Arko, Vanders? Am I going to find it somewhere among the posts I haven't read yet?

[Ranger]

Sorry, I'm bad with walls of text. Can you just sum it up quickly for my simple brain?

My posts are far from being walls of text. They already

are

summaries.

I'm disinclined to follow the request when the summation was already given, repeatedly.

I don't get the feeling of progression on them as I might from a townie trying to sort. Seems more like trying to justify previously made decisions than trying to sort.

Actually I was trying to sort Vanderscamp specifically to see if their scumread on me was made in good faith out of a mistaken read of my posts or if it was made in bad faith. (I was engaging in those posts specifically to try and get a better read on Vanderscamp specifically.)

I still haven't figured out which but at this point I give up on that idea.

On that note, it's frustrating how few players are engaging me. I genuinely feel Oclaxian Empire has a very high chance of being scum here and my reasons for the belief are strong.

I'm meant to be a reactive player--reacting to the content of others.
(I can't react to content which doesn't exist so what I react to is reflective of the available content. If someone else repeatedly revisits a subject and that's all I have to engage on, then I, too, will repeatedly revisit the subject in reacting to them.)

Not be proactive and force engagement.

[Aisa]

My main point is that I don't believe that you're reading all of the posts you quoted as towny, regardless of the strength of the read, but anyway, i think the lemon's post that it's weird for Arko to put someone at E-2, and then a day later say that we shouldn't be putting people at E-2, is a compelling case and possibly more alignment indicative than any of the posts you've quoted about Arko.

Oh

[Vanderscamp]

The burden of proof is on the accuser--not the accused.

Speaking of, I've undertaken that burden and made my accusation.

Spoiler: my case

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

This is a very interesting way of wording it.
It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149.

I believe Arko-OE have interactions strongly indicating they're not scum-scum. Scum-town's possible. Town-scum's possible. Town-town's possible. Never scum-scum.
Separately, Arko is my strongest townread rn.
Separately, Oclaxian Empire's content has overall been suspect, enough to be a main scum candidate.
Arko isn't town because of OE being scum. The three points had no connection. Stating they did connect is somewhat disingenuous.

i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

Oh? How interesting you use this as an argument against me!

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

You seemed quite opposed to this argument when

*I*

was the one you thought was making it against

you

.

You are saying I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment (partner with Arko = I'm scum, scum trying to pocket Arko = I'm scum),
In the exact same way you

objected

to me saying Arko was town regardless of yours. ("Arko isn't scum with Oclaxian, Arko isn't scum when Oclaxian is town".)

Care to explain the discrepancy?

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

Wording's important.

You didn't say "Ranger

knows

our alignment and has

decided

to not reevaluate".

You said,

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

"Ranger

decided

our alignment, and

is not

going to reevaluate".

The difference between these is the difference between calling me scum and calling me town.

The former would have been calling me scum. If you stated you thought I KNEW your alignment, you'd be stating by implication I'm scum.

The latter is what you did, and is calling me town. You stated I DECIDED your alignment.

Scum don't decide the alignment of other players. (Town do.)
Scum know the alignment of other players.

Your reference to me

deciding

rather than

knowing

your alignment.

It's not semantics--it's a scumslip.

VOTE: Oclaxian Empire.

184 + 185(backed by 176) are huge.

I believe Oclaxian Empire demonstrated a lack of internal consistency in their thoughts. This is

maybe

explainable depending on the individuals who did the posts and their internal communication system. If they weren't talking to each other and if it was two different people in the system posting, it could come from town. So I'm not saying that alone makes a smoking gun.

The scumslip does though. It was possible Oclaxian Empire was simply stating "Yes, I think you're town, who determined my alignment and won't reevaluate".

Was

, but with Oclaxian Empire having denied this as what they meant, and insisting it meant the opposite, meant any benefit of the doubt was removed.

Oclaxian Empire didn't say I

knew

their alignment, accusing me of being scum.
Oclaxian Empire said I

determined

their alignment, which is a slip of the tongue revealing they know I am town.

Stop

Vanderscamp:

Why have you not addressed my case?

You've attacked my defense of Arko.

You've been silent about my case on Oclaxian Empire.

Or maybe it's just my disarming charisma, that happens too

Aisa:

You've started your more serious reading.

Would you care to comment on my case?

Ranger - what do you make of arko apparently freaking out over e-2 being too soon, when they themselves thought they’d put ox at e-2 earlier in the thread?

AurorusVox:

Counter-question; what do you make of Oclaxian Empire stating I had 'decided' my reads and 'would not reevaluate' (implying I'm town), rather than 'know and decide not to reevaluate'?
What do you make of Oclaxian Empire's hypocrisy in stating I'm scum regardless of Arko's alignment, when having criticized me for saying Arko was town regardless of Oclaxian Empire's alignment?

I think your case on OE is okay, I don't think it's impossible that it could be a scum TMI post but I'm not sold on the idea that phrasing it like that can only be done with knowledge that you're town.
I decided about two pages into the game that I'm not going to try to analyze the logic of what OE is saying because I don't think it's going to be very helpful based on my perception of their playstyle. I don't care that OE has been inconsistent because it's likely to me that OE is not a consistent player. Surely you don't expect consistency either?...
More relevantly I think OE's response to your case was very towny, and I think the whole "you need to lim be before LYLO" sounded like a very genuine town reaction. I care more about this than linguistic analysis.

[Vanderscamp]

Ranger - what do you make of arko apparently freaking out over e-2 being too soon, when they themselves thought they’d put ox at e-2 earlier in the thread?

I don't see any freak-out. 45 is no freak-out. It is responding to the e-2. It is not a freakout. It is commenting on it. Commentary does not a freakout make. Tone-wise I would actually say it's the

opposite

of a freakout. It's inquiring into Oclaxian Empire's vote in a way I feel was quite town.

It is no sin to have suspicion on a slot after that slot votes you. The handling was the important part.

I don't see hypocrisy in voting Oclaxian Empire up to e-2 when Arko has valid reasons to suspect the slot.
Arko wasn't concerned about being at e-2. Arko was inquiring into Oclaxian Empire's e-2 vote. After the inquiry, Arko came to the conclusion Oclaxian Empire was likely scum in part for the e-2 vote. Arko put Oclaxian Empire to e-2.

There's nothing suspect in that chain of events. It's my opinion it's quite the opposite. I believe that chain of events and that process indicates Arko had a town mindset, approaching from a position of being uninformed and forming an opinion based off the information being generated in-thread.

Wow, does everything Arko says give you the impression of coming from a town mindset?...


I'm not sure how to easily link specific posts but #154 is the post that I think Auroros is talking about and gave me pause.

[Ranger]

Nevermind on giving up. Vanderscamp's reply reignited the desire to sort. It'll be dampened by having revealed I engaged with intent to sort them but *shrug*.

Either you've only played with the worst scum in the world, or #26 is the kind of thing that can be replicated extremely easily as scum.

Can be?
Yes, it

can

be replicated by scum.

Would be the approach scum actually took? On the second post of the second page? When going to bed?

That I don't think scum thinks to.

Anything

can

be done by scum.
It's not a matter of whether it can be done.
It's whether scum will

think to

do it.

I find 26 to be a post scum are incredibly unlikely to think of.

I really just don't believe that all of these similarly generic posts from Arko are posts that you think are all towny.

Well I do. Arko's posts vibed with me. Regardless of Arko's alignment I'd call those posts +town. It's the type of opener which

can

come from scum, but usually scum just...don't think to. So like...the vibes were good. None of them strongly so. But enough to warrant the townread.

I don't agree, I could point to any game related post of any player and say I like the sentiment or engagement of it, or say it's coming from a towny place, and it would be just as meaningful.

And then you would need to back that up, through both your reads, your progression in reads, your reasons, and your mindset, and have the meta to back you up.

You have none of those; I have all of them.

My main point is that I don't believe that you're reading all of the posts you quoted as towny, regardless of the strength of the read

Well I do believe those posts are towny, and as I am the one who wrote the posts, my belief is the one I think more important. :P

You're stating you think I don't believe it.
I know I do because I do believe it.
Your continued statement of thinking I don't believe it won't change that I do, in fact, believe it.

i think the lemon's post that it's weird for Arko to put someone at E-2, and then a day later say that we shouldn't be putting people at E-2, is a compelling case and possibly more alignment indicative than any of the posts you've quoted about Arko.
Thoughts on that?

It gives me pause on my Arko townread at the very least.

It's not enough to reverse my townread.
It's enough to throw it into question.
I need time to process, honestly.
Give me a day to think it over and I'll have a better answer.

[Ranger]

Wow, does everything Arko says give you the impression of coming from a town mindset?...

Not everything.

But most things, yes.

Arko's posts vibed as town.
I thought I saw a town thought process there.
I thought Arko wasn't scum with Oclaxian Empire and Oclaxian Empire is scum.
I thought Arko's interactions with Oclaxian Empire were town regardless of OE's alignment.

Arko has a lot going for them that's +town.

But AurorusVox did raise a good point.

If I

squint

, I can

force

an answer to that.

Being intellectually honest with myself though and not forcing it, I've got nothin' there.

I need about 24 hours or so to mull it over. Step away from the computer, think about it offline.

To be honest, maybe same with Oclaxian Empire.
People have raised their doubts there; I need to think about it overnight to figure out if their doubts are valid or if my case still holds.

[Aisa]

Or maybe it's just my disarming charisma, that happens too

Aisa:

You've started your more serious reading.

Would you care to comment on my case?

Ranger, was it your Arko towncase or your OE scumcase that you wanted me to comment on?

[Ranger]

Or maybe it's just my disarming charisma, that happens too

Aisa:

You've started your more serious reading.

Would you care to comment on my case?

Ranger, was it your Arko towncase or your OE scumcase that you wanted me to comment on?

The scumcase.

[Vanderscamp]

[...]
As for Arko, I've vibed with them from the beginning. First page was just vibes of rvs + liking their mechtalk; the townread started in earnest from 26. Specifically,

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

I loved this thought process.

I liked the engagement in 41.
I liked the sentiment of 43/48/61/65.
54 is an approach I feel comes from a town mindset.
The explanation of 69 is an approach which is nai, but the context of sharing it makes me lean town. (Someone explaining their philosophy is nai in of itself. The context behind explaining the philosophy can be ai, in this case, +town.)
I felt 118 was a good approach upon returning to the thread.
154 is not a scum post.

There's good reason Arko's my top townread.
Near as I can tell, there's no reason for Arko to be scum.

Yeahhhh you know what, these are good points. Arko gets my townread!

Are they good points?
Did you click on any of the posts that Ranger linked to see which posts they were talking about?

This is a genuine question, I'm interested in the answer to this.
I'm interested if you agreed with the reads on all of the individual posts, or just some of them.

[Aisa]

Thanks, I will get to that at some point.

On that note, it's frustrating how few players are engaging me. I genuinely feel Oclaxian Empire has a very high chance of being scum here and my reasons for the belief are strong.

I was gonna ask if your frustration was not maybe a bit too premature, but actually if we take, say, post 184 as the beginning of the case then it's actually been almost 24 hours, which seems reasonable.

[Vanderscamp]

What is your read on Arko, Vanders? Am I going to find it somewhere among the posts I haven't read yet?

Pretty null. Vaguely towny in tone but I agree with Vox's case.
I think if Ranger is scum their read on Arko is more likely to be scum defending a town than a partner.

[BloodB0t]

BloodB0t wrote: ↑30 minutes ago
Sorry, I'm bad with walls of text. Can you just sum it up quickly for my simple brain?
My posts are far from being walls of text. They already are summaries.

I'm disinclined to follow the request when the summation was already given, repeatedly.

I'm searching your ISO for "last post" and "bed" and not seeing anything come up.

Can you please just answer these two yes or no questions?: Are you indeed saying that the

fact

the post was the

last one made before bed

makes it +town for you?

@Everyone else: Does this assertion make any kind of sense I might be missing? (To me it being the last post is also NAI, and I don't understand how that could make it "insanely +town".)

@Ranger: Or were you just referring to the content of the last post being +town for you?

I think if Ranger is scum their read on Arko is more likely to be scum defending a town than a partner.

I agree.

[Vanderscamp]

I think blood is quite towny, I agree with all of what they're saying.

[Aisa]

@Vanders, I see you've answered my question, that's nice and answering this post feels like a very fair trade now!

[...]
As for Arko, I've vibed with them from the beginning. First page was just vibes of rvs + liking their mechtalk; the townread started in earnest from 26. Specifically,

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

I loved this thought process.

I liked the engagement in 41.
I liked the sentiment of 43/48/61/65.
54 is an approach I feel comes from a town mindset.
The explanation of 69 is an approach which is nai, but the context of sharing it makes me lean town. (Someone explaining their philosophy is nai in of itself. The context behind explaining the philosophy can be ai, in this case, +town.)
I felt 118 was a good approach upon returning to the thread.
154 is not a scum post.

There's good reason Arko's my top townread.
Near as I can tell, there's no reason for Arko to be scum.

Yeahhhh you know what, these are good points. Arko gets my townread!

Are they good points?
Did you click on any of the posts that Ranger linked to see which posts they were talking about?

This is a genuine question, I'm interested in the answer to this.
I'm interested if you agreed with the reads on all of the individual posts, or just some of them.

I did click on the links! Most, not all, admittedly. It's in fact impossible to form an opinion on the case without clicking the links; you tell me if you can judge the words "54 is an approach I feel comes from a town mindset" without knowing what post 54 is.

I thought most of them were

great

points. I agreed about most of the things Ranger pointed out being town-indicative, and that's pretty rare. (The embarrassment I will go through if Arko turns out to be scum though! ) The bits I disagree with are 118 and 154, I can't decide whether they're town indicative or scum indicative yet, and though I haven't read the discussion about post 154 in detail yet, if Arko has contradicted himself a bit that's always a little worrying. Then again I don't think inconsistency is always scummy. We'll see.

[furtiveglance]

.