Open 875 - The Kindgom of Zeal: The Queens Chosen - GAME OVER

[furtiveglance]

I'm not sure for reads at the moment

[Ranger]

This post must have taken you a long time.

About 5 minutes I think. Post tags are a lifesaver.

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}
{redFF}

(This is LLD down for clarity.)

This is where I'm at right now.

[Umlaut]

Was going to ask why Ranger never answered my question about her reads and then saw she actually did.

Explain Dragons and Gimli townreads?

Kinda surprised you remember my play well enough to call 89 town but apparently don't remember I get page one readslists.

I do remember that, doesn't mean I'm not going to ask where the reads come from.

It was purely vibes on that page. I liked Gimli's intro.
I didn't like furtiveglance's.
I felt STD's 'hiya' was town by gut. 12/19 could go either way but didn't reverse this. (I don't townread casual vibes from StD the same way I would LLD/Cephrir, at least on p1.)
Sails's cheeky wrong call of first felt +town as an rvs opener.
Loosely, I liked Cephrir's casualness.
My townread on Ethel was from erroneously believing this was a Theme game and believing 16 was a breadcrumb to some kind of PR. Rereading it remembering this is a flavored open, it's dead null.
I liked LLD's casual vibes in 18/20.

I mean... I guess. Calling a "Hiya" town is kind of crazy but no more so than people usually are around here. I like Gimli for town now too, I just didn't get there on page 1.

[Ranger]

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}


200 (furtive) + 202 (Umlaut) both +scum imo.

[Umlaut]

I'm not sure for reads at the moment

Being sure isn't the point of having reads. How do you lean?

[Umlaut]

i think she's focused pretty hard on the "confusing me with someone else" aspect and while i understand what she's getting at here, it's easier to hide behind this than to take another tack.

+town for Cephrir saying this better than I could.

think of the wagons we could build

we do seem to have a live one and yet, i'm seduced

VOTE: umlaut

oooh - i do like this better than redff

VOTE: umlaut

I was going to say I don't like this but the more I try to explain why the more I realize it's probably just because the vote is for me. Actually jumping from one kinda-scumread to another just because the wagon is juicier makes total sense and this is fine.

lol at umlaut read - surface skimming seven posts? Are you for real?

This makes it even better since it means Penguin is actually paying attention to me and not just voting me because the wagon is going that way (even if that is part of the reason). Penguin can have a townread for now.

Partially because I am being unfair. It's not fair I caught them Day 1. It's not fair our system sees right through theirs.

But that's how it is.

If this post comes from scum I am officially garbage at Mafia. (I mean, I'm probably garbage at Mafia anyway but still.)

Ok some thoughts as I catchup and read:

- Don't like Ranger claiming n1.
- Don't like Ceph's posting on p2.
- Like LLD posting.
- Dislike Ranger self-vote which required me to read someone else's post to find out that Ranger self-voted bc I'm not fully reading the thread.
- Neutral on FF on p3.
- Sail scumclaim is eh.
- Gimli town.
- Umlaut posting ok, I guess. I didn't read it very detailed, but surface skim it seems ok.

I'm still busy lol but my friends got off to eat dinner so here I am now for a moment.

This feels like natural and breezy catch-up thoughts and Korina gets a townlean for it. (I think taking Sail's "scumclaim" in 66 seriously is kind of weird though, it didn't even register with me and I had to ISO them to see what you were talking about.) I'd like to get more about your opinion on Ceph because I've liked their posting pretty much from the start.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah so Ranger's doing the flood the thread thing where they post insesently about nothing to appear town.

Ranger made a whole post about me going down a slot in their reads list based on literal nothing just to be able to make a read progression post.

People should do what they need to do today to gather their own reads but Ranger needs to die today.

[Umlaut]

If I had to give reads right now then

Very town:

Lady Lambdadelta, Cephrir

Sorta town:

Ethel, Korina, Detective Penguin, Gimli

Nulltown:

Sail, Save The Dragons

Nullscum:

furtiveglance, Radical Rat

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

Furtive has had a couple of bad posts (83, 200) and really no good ones; Sail is the other way around, I like 162 and nothing stands out as bad. Red is just going with the flow in a way I don't like.

[Korina]

Ceph's posting on p2 doesn't feel very good to me, mostly the joining Ranger wagon. If it's RVS, it doesn't feel that good, and if it's serious, it really doesn't feel that good. 40 as well doesn't strike me as that good, but idk what to make of it.

Ceph's kinda just null for me, but I like his more serious posting. I'm going to bed now, but I wanted to respond with that before sleeping.

[Ranger]

I applaud Umlaut's posting regardless of alignment, but 205 is +scum by gut.

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

This is also a terrible take for obvious reasons.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I applaud Umlaut's posting regardless of alignment, but 205 is +scum by gut.

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

This is also a terrible take for obvious reasons.

No, it's not. I've been wondering if you might be doing a bus there for distancing, and the doubling down on it when you realized you were dead.

Plus, flipless associations are bad, you can both be independently scummy. Not sure I think you both are but it's not a bad take by definition.

[Umlaut]

I applaud Umlaut's posting regardless of alignment, but 205 is +scum by gut.

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

This is also a terrible take for obvious reasons.

Let me guess, the obvious reason is that it doesn't make sense for you to be scum together? You're right, it doesn't, I'm most likely wrong about one of you.

[Umlaut]

I applaud Umlaut's posting regardless of alignment, but 205 is +scum by gut.

Actually, this doesn't make any sense at all and makes me go from "Ranger is the best candidate for scum I can see right now" to "wait, I actually think Ranger is scum."

Why in the world do you applaud my posting? It's just, like, normal read-forming stuff, it's not great literature or dazzlingly brilliant rhetoric. The only reason you would applaud it is because you agree with it or think it's good towntelling, and you don't do either of those things.

[Cephrir]

Is it obvious? Im not so sure...

Well you've given zero thoughts on any players.

If you're not scum you're sure doing a good job of being +scum.

alright, since you say i'm confusing you with someone else: can you explain why redff is scum?

Explain? Yes. Coherently to your standards? Probably not.

17 was a stiff opener.
71 skips all the content prior to make a post lacking it.
73 was the fifth vote on me. Sail voted elsewhere, so it was only L-3, but it was reasonless joining the only wagon in the game--on a player I happen to know is town. If my suspicion LLD's town is correct, this action is extra-suspect because it's hiding behind a town player's push to vote town.
113 provides the justification, but continues to give no reads.
114 is the very thing LLD is accusing me of--being overdefensive.
127 is deliberately doing nothing.

redFF is blatantly coasting. That's not a guarantee of being scum. It's enough to warrant being my main scumread.

actually that is pretty coherent and meets my standards. i'm not sure if this is AI or not but it does make me happy inside

[Cephrir]

{Gimli}
{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Sail}
{Detective Penguin}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance | Ethel}
{redFF}

On reflection, this is where I am.

Cephrir's posts are consistently +town. He's skilled enough that doesn't guarantee town, but by feel he's +town by gut.
Similarly so for Korina.

Umlaut's the opposite. The content isn't bad, but looks 'solvey' instead of

solving

. His reads support being scum.

the tiers... they're

multiplying

[Ranger]

Ranger made a whole post about me going down a slot in their reads list based on literal nothing

About that.
'based on literal nothing' = I actually gave it thought. It means instead of an event triggering the shift, my own mind did. Shocker, I know.

People should do what they need to do today to gather their own reads but Ranger needs to die today.

Well I'm voting myself already; I can't exactly speed up my own demise faster than that, now, can I?

Why in the world do you applaud my posting? It's just, like, normal read-forming stuff, it's not great literature or dazzlingly brilliant rhetoric. The only reason you would applaud it is because you agree with it or think it's good towntelling, and you don't do either of those things.

It's good "towntelling" in that it looks town. Regardless of your alignment your posts are +town. Applause-worthy.

I still think it scum by gut. 211 feels scum by gut, too.
212 I'm less sure of though. On the one hand it looks performative. On the other, it's not like I'm going to live, so adding fuel to the flame of my mislim doesn't generate towncred.

it's not a bad take by definition.

Not a bad take by definition, sure.

Still is a bad take.

As a reminder:
I act N1.

My current reads:
{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}

Gimli hasn't been explained but he's tryharding with original thought, good analysis, reasonable posting, and has reads I vibe with. Tone-wise is good. Plus I liked Gimli's intro.

Spoiler: Sail townread

Sails's cheeky wrong call of first felt +town as an rvs opener.

VOTE: Gimli

Thinking about it, I feel this is +town for Sail. Hopping off the Ranger wagon onto Gimli I don't think is scum there.

redFF had a very similar reaction to me so he can be lean town for now.

Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

Spoiler: Detective Penguin townread

penguin seems intense this game which is good.

I agree with this.
To explain the Penguin read, if it were PenguinPower on his main I'd be inclined to think his posts were +scum--counterintuitively, because they look +town. However, Detective Penguin isn't on the PenguinPower account. If the meta isn't 1:1, then Detective Penuin's posts looking +town could be exactly what they look like; +town. So, tentatively, trusting Detective Penguin's meta isn't identical to PenguinPower, +town posts get a townread.

I would like for you to expand on why my posts are +scum if I were on my main. I don't really think my posts are any different than they would have been as either town or scum on any account except for volume.

Your posts here are free of memes. On PenuinPower your posts are filled with memes (especially when town). A 1:1 translation would suggest scum, because the nature of content from you is too serious. Benefit of the doubt = assuming not a 1:1 translation and the +town content being +town, despite its seriousness.

Spoiler: Lady Lambdadelta overall townread

I don't see LLD opening this way as scum

(Small chance LLD’s actually scum, since a town-LLD I'd expect to be self-aware her hard-pushing p1 warps the game, but I still think town's more likely.)

(She herself says to BoP her when I flip town, but LLD's scumplay's strong enough to convince people not to BoP her.)

LLD is a tentative townread cause she is deathtunneling a slot since very early and I don't see wolves doing that enough.

I agree with this

I liked LLD's casual vibes in 18/20.

Spoiler: furtiveglance scumread

Ethel same, me every game

Thinking about it, I don't think furtiveglance is scum with Ethel, but looking at 82/83, I don't think both are town; I think one of these two is scum.

I've since concluded it's furtiveglance; all of his posts have vibed as +scum to me.
Even from furtive's first post, his vibes have been off.
200 was terrible.
I agreed with Gimli's reasons for the scumread. 182 was spot-on.

Spoiler: redFF scumread

It’s obvious redFF is scum piggybacking off LLD's erroneous scumread
redFF is obvscum tho, cruising off an effectively free D1.

Is it obvious? Im not so sure...

Well you've given zero thoughts on any players.

If you're not scum you're sure doing a good job of being +scum.

alright, since you say i'm confusing you with someone else: can you explain why redff is scum?

Explain? Yes. Coherently to your standards? Probably not. :P

17 was a stiff opener.
71 skips all the content prior to make a post lacking it.
73 was the fifth vote on me. Sail voted elsewhere, so it was only L-3, but it was reasonless joining the only wagon in the game--on a player I happen to know is town. If my suspicion LLD's town is correct, this action is extra-suspect because it's hiding behind a town player's push to vote town.
113 provides the justification, but continues to give no reads.
114 is the very thing LLD is accusing me of--being overdefensive.
127 is deliberately doing nothing.

redFF is blatantly coasting. That's not a guarantee of being scum. It's enough to warrant being my main scumread.

redFF had a very similar reaction to me so he can be lean town for now.

Bad take.
Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

redFF's post lacked that. It was flat.

Rest of reads less important to remember.

[Cephrir]

i think furtive is scum too

btw if anyone tries to kill ethel today i will unhinge my jaw and swallow them whole. just a heads up

[Ranger]

the tiers... they're

multiplying

My reads are fluid. Anything,

anything

can change them. Literally anything. Lack of posting. One post, by a different person. One post, by the person in question. Me talking through my reads. Me evaluating away from the keyboard.

The number of tiers grow and shrink as needed.

Speaking of,

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Cephrir}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}

Have a last-minute townread increase. I vibe with 213/214.

Rest of 215 applies still.

[Gimli]

i think furtive is scum too

btw if anyone tries to kill ethel today i will unhinge my jaw and swallow them whole. just a heads up

I agree with both of these takes atm but I wanna give furtive a lot of room to get into the game cause he can be quite the obvtown. last post he made hit his scum meta harder than an overhand though

while I do agree killing ethel is really bad, are you defending them cause new player, cause they're towny, or something else?

[Ethel]

so this is your first mafia game?

Kinda, yes - I have played it under a different name before, though not online. But since I'd like to stop being confused and contribute something useful to the discussion, maybe LLD can clear something up for me. I've started to get that most of the reads people post here are just vague impressions and 'vibes' they get from people and not meant to say "Hey, X is 100% scum/town". It still feels a bit random to me how people create a narrative from the smallest things, but lots of Mafia experience probably does that I don't expect to get it straight away. However, looking back at page 1, this was Ranger's first post:

Mod: 24 hour V/LA
Since game just started, can give this tho.

{Save The Dragons, Gimli, furtiveglance, Cephrir}
{Ethel}
{Sail}
{Korina, Lady Lambdadelta (Detective Penguin, Radical Rat, Umlaut)}
{redFF}

VOTE: redFF

Be back tomorrow, hopefully.

And right away, LLD seemed completely sure that Ranger was scum. Could you clarify why that one post convinced you of that? Maybe you explained that already and I just missed it. Obviously a lot of posts came afterwards that could be used to support or deny that read, but I'm wondering simply about that first post that seems to have started this whole debate, because I'm just trying to follow the logic of everyone's arguments. Was that just a ploy to get Ranger's reaction or did you genuinely believe she was scum based on that initial ranking?

[furtiveglance]

I think Korina and Umlaut are town so far, how's that?

[Gimli]

I think Korina and Umlaut are town so far, how's that?

idk why korina?

[furtiveglance]

I think town are more likely to do a big list of dislikes, I think scumreads are more +town than townreads, especially early on

[Sail]

Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

redFF's post lacked that. It was flat.

To me it seemed like I just used more words to describe the same thought. I do like this read, though.

[Sail]

Explain Dragons and Gimli townreads?

Kinda surprised you remember my play well enough to call 89 town but apparently don't remember I get page one readslists.

I do remember that, doesn't mean I'm not going to ask where the reads come from.

What do you hope to gain from asking Ranger about her page 1 readlists?