Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

[Klick]

Spoiler: When it Klicked for Gimli

I think its klick with a traitor role

MT can u go over everything that happened in hood with u and rest of dead townies?
I feel like there could be something there.

Absolutely.

Grimme Troupe (Black + Peta)

Black knew he was going to die. He said well-played to me if scum, but also said I should have been replaced so im a little confused what exactly he was saying about me.

Peta said that smart cash money $$$ is on Klick, he thinks.

Black questioned whether Klick was trying to find scum -- pointing out for instance that Klick votes for wagons even if he thinks they're town (Alisae for instance). He concluded off with saying that he thinks it's either FB or Klick, but expressed dissatisfaction with himself

I agreed with Black regarding the Alisae point (I thought E was obvtown immediately after the cakez flip, so much so i healed em) but I dont think he could tell what i was saying lol.

Petapan says that he's been turned off to the game for a while (mood) but thinks from gameplay and role perspective, klick made the most sense

Black said that he didn't understand why scum isn't killing Firebringer.

-----

My lingering questions:

The Firefluffer problem

Why isn't scum killing Firebringer? I understand that he hides behind people and clears them somehow -- so... why no kill that. The obvious answer to that would be "He's hiding".

i can hide behind someone to prevent my death. if they die that night i die.
alternatively if i hide behind someone who is performing a kill, i will die instead of their target.

Ah. That's a supremely good role, isn't it? Now that you've claimed that last bit and turned it into an investigative

But in order to do that, you have to announce your targets. So why hasn't scum shot one of those targets and killed Fire? Black's last thoughts and my own at this point.

Even if the target is nullish/scummy, it's more than worth it to shoot Firewoofer too. From what i can tell after he claimed, he said he'd hide behind either FireR or redFF.

Fire's role isn't gated like everyone else's. And it's so good. Get rid of him. Why aren't they?

It was a 50/50 shot, so scum couldn't kill him for sure, they had to guess between FireR/redFF (he didnt indicate which he was picking). So that could be why. Would be disastrous to miss that. That's probably why Fire's alive as town.

,,,,,,,,

Petapan's final remaining suspicion

Petapan said that role-wise and gameplay-wise Klick made the most sense to him. He didn't elaborate much on that but it is interesting to me he would say tgameplay and role -- what is Klicks role

Scum already know my role and I'm gonna get hero shot by furtive tonight so I'll jump the queue

Each night I can choose to write an anonymous message for the mod to post at day start
N1 I deliberately chose not to do this because I had nothing to say - I was hoping Cakez would be an investigative and I could out his results anonymously
N2 I just fell asleep before writing a message (evidence: it's 3:45am right now)

Bruh

So it's a reporter and functionally not very helpful. What were the other scum?

Cakez - nonconsecutive commuter
TSQ - 4-shot flavour/role cop
ActionDan - 3-shot combined roleblocker/rolestopper

Yeah i could see it. Klick could also have other power not claimed. Sure.

But what about gameplay-wise?

Spoiler: Klick on Cakez

TOWN
furtiveglance
Morning Tweet
Black
SirCakez
Alisae

LEANING TOWN
Firebringer
VP Baltar
Gimli

NULL
Mistyx
Asri Teroka
Aristeia
redFF
Taly

LEANING SCUM
petapan
Lycanfire
Cat Scratch Fever

SCUM

TOWN
Morning Tweet
Black
Asri Teroka
Alisae
Firebringer

LEANING TOWN
furtiveglance
SirCakez
redFF
VP Baltar
Cat Scratch Fever

NULL
Gimli
Mistyx
Aristeia
Taly

LEANING SCUM
petapan
Lycanfire

SCUM

I'd really like him to explain why he's townreading Cakez though.

I've had thoughts on this since last night but I went to sleep instead of responding.

Basically, I think my Cakez townread was poor. Early in Cakez's posting I thought his forwardness and willingness to bring a lot of opinions to the table was towny. I think this was biased somewhat by comparing him to Lycanfire in my head and thinking, 'well Cakez is being pretty free with his reads and Lycan isn't doing anything so if there's a scum between them it's more likely to be Lycan.' Which isn't a well-thought-out point.
In my last reads list I brought Cakez down a bit because I kinda realised this but still wanted to give credit to my initial gut ping.

I think ultimately I townread what you are scumreading. I ISO'd Cakez late last night and felt pretty similarly to you, that what he was doing could pretty easily be scum projecting false confidence. I don't feel strongly about it but with you saying it's his scum meta I kinda want to sheep you on it.

VOTE: SirCakez

TOWN
Morning Tweet
Black
Asri Teroka
Firebringer

LEANING TOWN
Cat Scratch Fever
Aristeia
furtiveglance
Alisae
VP Baltar

NULL
redFF
Gimli
Mistyx
Taly

LEANING SCUM
petapan
{Lycanfire, SirCakez}

SCUM

Considered thoughts are closer to here
The whole list is ordered
At this point petapan being leaning scum is kind of a meme but I like it anyway

I'm going to make a reads list completely from scratch based on my very removed impressions of everyone right now

TOWN
Aristeia
Black
furtiveglance
Asri Teroka
Thestatusquo
Firebringer

LEANING TOWN
fireisredsir
Cat Scratch Fever
SirCakez
Morning Tweet

NULL
Alisae
petapan
redFF

LEANING SCUM
Gimli
Mistyx
ActionDan

Klick has Cakez town early, reconsiders at the behest of Ari questioning the TR, has him in scum for a while, then he shifts back to being a townread but i dont see a discernible reason why anywhere

Cakez stays as town for Klick a long while (i wont bother quoting the many posts where Cakez is around the 4th or 5th most highest TR for Klick) all the way up until the guilty. Klick tried to get Cakez to claim his role privately to him, which he did, and Klick believed it and defended cakez (until he got guiltied a little later)

Klick also has TSQ as high town during D1 before any deaths (2150, 2207) -- but as soon as TSQ gets guiltied, Klick says:

oh also i have another guilty - tsq visited csf

Makes me feel good about where my reads list was up to last night

Spoiler: reads

100% TOWN
petapan
Aristeia
furtiveglance

OBVIOUS TOWN
Alisae
Cat Scratch Fever
Black

VERY LIKELY TOWN
Asri Teroka
Gimli
Firebringer

LEANING TOWN
redFF
Mistyx
fireisredsir

POE SCUMMY
Morning Tweet
Thestatusquo

Klick apparently TSQ as town but then started suspecting him the night before the morning of the guilty happened. Which is a little convenient, Klick's might be trying to get away with keeping Cakez and TSQ as high as possible until they can't anymore. Maybe because ActionDan got limmed so early in part thanks to Klick

I mean, I'm grasping a little bit here because my own interactiojns with TSQ and Cakez are YIKES because i recall townreading them both (Cakez primarily). But still seems very noteworthy.

Especially considering there is NOTHING role-wise that clears klick, and it *seeeems* to me based on about an hour skim that Klick didn't cause the thread to go in TSQ or Cakez directions, only ActionDans

I see what peta was trying to get at when he said role-wise and gameplay-wise he couldnt rule out Klick. So far I'm with him.

Firebringer - See: firefluffer problem
Aristeia - guiltied multiple scum
fireisredsir - INNOed by Firebringer
Gimli - Obviously suggested killing himself and me but also he just kinda seems towny. Also the giving guns ability, didn't need to give it to Ari and suggest shooting him with it,
furtiveglance - I actually forgot about furtive. Sorry. He's a Lazy Jailkeeper. I see he shot Misty. I skimmed and couldn't find the precise reason why it's not him. I assume it's night action based
Klick -
Morning Tweet - not in a PT with living players

My role for anyone that cares

I'm Hornet. I think it's like a tsundere type deal where i attack but also, i

protect

. I dig it.

I think it's Klick, but barring that, it's technically possible for it to be Gimli. And everyone is taking furtive as town for granted, I assume he did a jailkeep that was pivotal and i just cant bother to find it RN. I believe Firewoof/Aristeia/fireisred can safely be ignored.

peta and black were solving it as being just klick and then peta died and ari shot black

those conversations never had the relevant impact ITT, that's why klick is still here

VOTE: klick

I thought a lot about this game and this is where I'm at and sorry if I'm wrong

I think this stuff is town

I also think this is furtive genuinely trying to solve for Gimli's alignment

[Klick]

It could be fake

I just don't think it is

I think Klick's reactive vote and then him saying he thought it was Gimli all along looked sus

Okay, it 'looked sus'
Why does Klick!scum contrive this elaborate 'I thought it was Gimli all along!' stuff coming into today

to try to persuade you? I'm not dumb, I'm aware that you wouldn't find that towny
I said it because it was true

[Klick]

YES. Because if I'm scum, furtive is town, and he's been consistently stating a scumread on me, and I know how he plays and am aware that he won't realistically change his mind against the evidence of this argument.

I think it's interesting how much you're painting furtive as some kind of death tunneler who never changes his mind. the only times I saw furtive having a strong neverchanging opinion on someone, it was twice against me and I was scum and he was right both times. maybe your experience with him differs though so, okay.

speaking of which, if I'm scum I'd never keep furtive alive cause he knows me better than the rest of the playerlist, caught me real hard twice already and I'd be scared of playing it out with him around. if I'm scum I just take aristeia with me to d8. hell if I'm scum I keep peta around and kill furtive in n5. have you considered that these NAs make little sense for me to make as scum?

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

[Klick]

It has been a long while since I looked at Gimli's early game but I don't remember there being anything that feels outside of what I'd expect from him as scum from before D4.

[Gimli]

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

No, I think you do since your opinion of furtive is that he is unreasonable when he is town

[Gimli]

Lock clear + discredit. You can't even sus him cause you'll need to kill him tonight

[Gimli]

I do like your theory on how I'm scum playing a very good game. well the main difference between all my scumgames on other completed games and other games I'm playing is that in every completed game where I was scum, I had to replace in. There was white flag, there was buisness company, there was also a game I replaced in for the worst and everybody was catching me, and there was a newbie I replaced in... in all of those games I had furtive breaking me and making me look horrible ITT. I said it was two but he was also in that game with the pairs and the gladiates strong scumreading me.

that's not to say I play as scum to set my partners up. I play as scum to set my partners up when the conditions make that the only possible play. in every game I replaced in and was scum, I felt my slot was near condenmed. granted, I had a lot of space to play in white flag, but I was travelling and having lots of real life drama that made lying constantly for days an impossibility.

so, yes, when people try to metadive me and see me having a weak scumgame, it's because I keep replacing in and finding furtive and other people death tunneling my fucking slot and I don't think I can get out of those situations yet. I think I'm a good wolf and I'm proud of both my wolf game and my town game, and appreciate the thought that nothing I've done here is exactly outside of my range, except for hypersolving and acting excited about it, which is how fireisred is clearing me and not something I'd bother replicating unfortunately. also, IDK how I'd play giving people a gun as a wolf but it wouldn't be what I did certainly.

and of course, I wouldn't make the kills the wolf did. if I'm scum I had aristeia deep pocketed in a spot where every other living player has caught me as scum before, except for klick who of course isn't who I'd kill as a wolf for other reasons.

[furtiveglance]

It could be fake

I just don't think it is

I think Klick's reactive vote and then him saying he thought it was Gimli all along looked sus

Okay, it 'looked sus'
Why does Klick!scum contrive this elaborate 'I thought it was Gimli all along!' stuff coming into today

to try to persuade you? I'm not dumb, I'm aware that you wouldn't find that towny
I said it because it was true

To justify your desperate omgus after the fact

[Klick]

Why does Klick!scum feel desperate?

[Klick]

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

No, I think you do since your opinion of furtive is that he is unreasonable when he is town

Why is this more significant than the massive flag furtive has been waving all game saying 'Klick is scum'?

[Klick]

Lock clear + discredit. You can't even sus him cause you'll need to kill him tonight

Please kill him tonight I would greatly appreciate it

[Gimli]

If you believe this then you should also believe that I never let furtive get this far if I'm scum either.

No, I think you do since your opinion of furtive is that he is unreasonable when he is town

Why is this more significant than the massive flag furtive has been waving all game saying 'Klick is scum'?

Peta and Ari (I think) also had you as a wolf; the difference being you can't wave them off and discredit them

[Gimli]

like for MT to be scum she has to be a traitor. that's quite limiting, it makes scumhunting her wonky cause the entirety of her d1-d2 whatever play is not likely to be denouncing informed or anything like that.

Klick IMO only makes sense as a traitor. I copy pasted his d1 readslist here a page ago. he simply puts his hood in a scumpile of three people (with petapan). I'm not gonna tell you I KNOW klick, but I played as a scumbuddy with klick and I think he'd play all scum hood different than bussing both partners. I'm pretty sure klick would go like 'oh theyre towny in the hood' and then pretend like he was pocketed or whatever. not this.

then ari and furt only make sense as traitor, you know that already. and fireisR, if you're town, didn't make the kill, so eitehr traitor or just town.

then there's me. I know I'm town but if I'm scum, the way I played my role doesn't make any sense either if I'm starting in groupscum. of course I can be a traitor as well just like everybody else.

you're our last bet at groupscum

the thing is Klick has always been treating the hood as a there is 1 scum in here kind of hood. Which is not even an implausible play if you have a 3 scum hood?

I think Klick's iso is scummier than Tweet's iso tbh

Yup Ari's last posts about klick are thinking it's klick, until we got to just talking mechanically on D7 where she didn't give a read

So klick what difference does it make for you to keep Ari here instead of furtive? In fact, if that micro you posted is evidence of anything, is that Ari can get really tunnely against you for NAI reasons and I find it extremely unlikely that you'd convince her not to eliminate you last gameday

Let me ask you this: why do I kill Ari instead of furtive? Why would you kill furtive instead of Ari? Furtive caught me no less than everytime we played svt, why would I be the one killing aristeia?

[Gimli]

I was going too easy on you, letting you play this dumdum narrative of "I'd just kill furtive" when all the remaining 7ish dead townies wanted to kill you too

[Gimli]

I'd just kill fireisred even

[Klick]

Did Ari and furtive tunnel me because they were right and I'm scum or did they tunnel me because they have a pattern of tunneling me for my playstyle (something you acknowledge to be true)?
Why does CSF of all people die on N2 when she had a townread on me over someone like furtive or especially Ari?
Doesn't it seem much more reasonable to assume that peta and Ari were largely killed because they were basically clear than because of their scumreads on me? What regarding the decision of the scum to kill peta and Ari when they did strongly points to me being scum over anyone else in this game?

I think Arinis very similar to furtive in that if I were scum I'd want her dead, because she naturally scumreads me. So it's curious that CSF and petapan both died before either Ari or furtive. Petapan may have scumread me but I wouldn't fear him tunneling me to death like I would Ari or furtive.

[Gimli]

I have some questions to your questions:

1) does furtive have a tendency to tunnel you when you're both townies?
2) does ari have a tendency to tunnel you when you're both townies outside of that micro?

I ask 2) especially because I'm sure that game has ended much later than the petapan kill; so, if you're saying you'd kill ari over peta cause she naturally scumreads you, then unless you have other games with her where she did that, that's messing up with the actual timeline of when 'ari naturally scumreads klick' is a thing that could affect your n2 or n5 kill.

to the csf kill: it's much harder to read into the n2 kill as especifically benefitting one player, when there was a living jailkeeper, a tracker, other PRs scum could be afraid of getting into, and there were two scum alive, not one. also, if you're a traitor, you had nothing to do with that kill, which is what my theory is.

if you're town, you should have acknowledged that the things I just said wrt the nightkills make sense from my point of view as town; that the petapan and the aristeia kill were not kills I'm likely to make as mafia; and that should have an impact in your solve. I'm saying that particularly because you're using similar, but much weaker arguments to suggest you wouldn't make x and y kill or play in x or y manner, and suggesting I'm a wolf for not acknowledging it. I'm seeing you not acknowledging the massive circumstancial evidence I just brought here that suggests strongly that I'm town. I think you can't acknowledge it because at this point you have painted yourself into a corner, you can no longer go back to suggesting furtive as scum cause that'd look awful, so you need to wave it off.

[Gimli]

yup petapan died here february 23rd

aristeia started to turn the tunnel on you at least from d2 forward of the micro: that's february 24th.

[fireisredsir]

i think the CSF kill probably makes the most sense as being due to the fact that she had shea as her top suspect (and nobody else did, i think), and probably whoever is scum here isn't groupscum

so that was the only read that mattered to shea, who made the kill

[fireisredsir]

sorry klick i don't see it

i don't think it's gimli

[fireisredsir]

i kinda am thinking that if klick/gimli is t/t the most likely way we win is by clearing one of them

[fireisredsir]

and if they're not then it's on me

[fireisredsir]

i dunno maybe i should be seeing that if it really was t/t you'd find each other eventually and not just get more and more convinced which is what it seems like is happening

[fireisredsir]

in my heart i think i know that furtive's role makes the least amount of sense mechanically but i just keep reading klick and gimli as town

[fireisredsir]

im not built for this