Newbie 2114: Life Imitates Art...in Memes! -- End

[DragonEater70]

The thing about word twisting is in reference to this (just so nobody accuses me of twisting bewolkt's words about word twisting or something weird like that):

And again some

word twisting

. Of course you are allowed to change your reads like we all do with new information. I just pointed out the hypocrisy when you were accusing me of changing my thoughts about Patch to benefit my interests (which didn't even happen, they were just developed as the game evolved), while you have changed yours as well now that you want to lim me

[patchwork]

does patch putting bewo on e-1 and me not hammering spew something? i think it does but brain juice gone atm

alllso now that i think abou this isn't this wayy too self-aware?

i mean idk it feels totally unneccesary. its just like "i didnt quickhammer therefore i am spewed as town" ?? like thats not a level of awareness you usually see from town and i know it's how some people talk (in fact, i tend to talk like that sometimes) but it's just like. totally unneccesary. you're town notbecause you didn't quickhammer, but because you know you're town. the only person's role who you know is your own, so you should be confident in yourself, isntead of sort of just making this gentle push towards town like "oh em gee look how towny i am" ???

[bewolkt]

Well I'm going to bed but I guess we're ready to vote anyway. But if anyone wants me to address anything I can do it tomorrow

VOTE: Dragon

[fferyllt]

VC 3.7

bewolkt (2): DragonEater70, patchwork
DragonEater70 (1): bewolkt

Not Voting (2):

Elpis, Kanna

With 5 alive it takes 3 votes to eliminate

Deadline: March 25, Midnight US Eastern Daylight Time

countdown: (expired on 2023-03-24 21:00:00)

Mod Notes

• Combined ffery/GiF ISO for vote counts and mod posts here.
  
• Let me know if Vote Counts are in error
  
• 

[Elpis]

Okay, I am around, sorry. I had two flights today and just landed and got settled. I just read up to this point, I am down to discuss.

[Elpis]

I think there's been a lot to absorb in all this discussion, and there's a lot from both sides that makes it hard for me to assess this as more than just vibes, as there's likely been a lot of misplays, a lot of just generally suspicious acts from everyone all around, and everyone seems to be a little prickly about the positions they hold and having their stances critiqued and disagreed with. I feel that Kanna is taking an emotion oriented approach, which tends to appeal to me because I am normally a very emotionally oriented person, but i'm trying to keep an open mind and read more than that here.

Dragon, you've been extremely backlashy in your responses, and somewhat aggressive, but also you've put a LOT of work into your Bewolkt analysis, and that should be recognized. Even if there were a lot of aspects I really didn't agree with, I think the effort behind it is commendable.

Patch... I just can't find myself finding a lot of trust in your minimal interactions. I know you're expressing that low interactions=/= scum, but even when you have interacted, I just haven't been able to trust what you've said for a while. I don't know if that's my fault, but I can't tell myself that you're town.

[Elpis]

Kanna, are you around to discuss?

[Kanna]

i'm here! give me a moment or two

[Elpis]

Ah, and for Bewolkt, I meant to include that more within my Dragon discussing. I think they're largely suspect as at least being a pair in the scum side, probably still close to or on par with dragon in my suspicions. They had a good rebuttal I felt, but I don't know if it sums to full town. This is messy and i'm not confident.

[Kanna]

on second thought, i'll prepare a more cohesive post explaining my thoughts for you, elpis. it won't take too long, but don't wait up for it if you're currently doing that

[Elpis]

on second thought, i'll prepare a more cohesive post explaining my thoughts for you, elpis. it won't take too long, but don't wait up for it if you're currently doing that

It's not late for me yet! Only 8 pm

[patchwork]

Patch... I just can't find myself finding a lot of trust in your minimal interactions. I know you're expressing that low interactions=/= scum, but even when you have interacted, I just haven't been able to trust what you've said for a while. I don't know if that's my fault, but I can't tell myself that you're town.

well i cant really comment on this but i am town. idk how to convince you but i just am

[patchwork]

yea btw elpis town imo

[patchwork]

like obviously they werent really doing much early-game but i think im confident to say that based off their tone and play i think they're town now. their htough process seemsto be veyr clearly done and how cautious they are seems to come from town tbh.
current solve is (bewolkt kanna). dont think dragon would throw by pushing his own partner and elpis is town so that leaves two

[Kanna]

siighhh i have a headache.

i still plan on making that post but to patch and dragon, do me a favour and just let me fucking breathe. you can try convince elpis if you like, but can you please not yell that i'm scum and to not listen to anything i have to say or whatever because i'm not doing that to you. of course this is not mandatory, but i would like that

[Kanna]

i mean i'm sorry i don't mean to police anyone but. idk. post might come much later as i might just rest instead just to let you know elpis

[patchwork]

im literally not?

[Kanna]

Btw Elpis I just wanna point out one reason you shouldn't believe in town!Kanna before you chat with her as she suggests.
Kanna is misrepresnting what I am saying (together with bewolkt) and claiming that I am trying to make it seem as if I'm scum with her (so that after scum!me gets eliminated, she gets mislimmed), when I literally spent the entire first half of the day claiming Kanna isn't scummy in my eyes at all, then the second half saying that there's no way I could be scum with Kanna.
So this misrepresentation is fucking ludicrous.

i'm talking about stuff like this "you shouldn't believe kanna" "(her) misrep is fucking ludicrous"

but i apologise if i wrongly accused you

[Kanna]

blah just forget it, thanks. it could also come part from the fact that i'm tired

[Kanna]

let's just forget about what i said earlier, i don't think dragon has said anything out of line and i am just sort of sad due to something else. i hate the thought of being someone to police language and know that i don't mean that so please feel free to say whatever you want. promise i won't throw a fit next time.

--
@elpis: to fully reveal my thoughts, which everyone was SO interested to know earlier, i think it's pretty clear dragon is scum

i don't want to shit on his case too hard cause i can really see the effort put into it (very admirable btw), but it just like, comes from the completely wrong angle.

mafia is a game about finding liars, and being town often gets lumped with actions like expressing thoughts, making pushes and blah blah blah, but that's not a catch-all thing. just like how you elpis entered the game being unsure of who to push and being accused of fencesitting, fencesitting does not automatically mean you're mafia, despite it being a "scum-indicative trait". and the same goes for a lot of actions. as town we're supposed to sort these tells on whether someone is genuine in these behaviours cause it's part of their personality/playstyle or not.

the reason why dragon is being very insincere in his bewo sorting however is he is *too* concerned with the artificial image of a townie and kinda dogs on everything bewo does because he's not the "picture perfect townie", which, who really is honestly. normal people consider that townies are never picture perfect into their solve -- this is good faith and it's a townie quality (that scum will generally fake to look town), but dragon at least does not exhibit any of it which is really scummy. like, i do not believe dragon genuinely would think everything bewo has done is scummy if he was actually town. for example he would think "hm yes, bewo has not been posting often, and while he could be nervous scum, he could also be absent town" not "THIS IS SCUMLURKING 100% KILL IT". and when he says he cannot believe why anyone would ever townread bewo or he has so much dirt on him his whole iso is basically dirt, it's more likely he is simply lying. bewo also has a lot of redeeming qualities, but dragon turns a blind eye to all of it -- just for example, he was genuinely solving today trying to figure out if i had motivation to vote alisae if i was scum with dragon but dragon conviniently ignores that and i think at some point earlier on he says something to the effect of he can't see why anyone would townread bewo today. he's being very selective with how he presents information because he's starting off from the starting point of "bewo is scum. ok, how can i make him look as scummy as possible" (premeditated scumread) instead of like "this is bewo, what do his actions tell me about his alignment" (genuine solving)

yes the case comes after bewo is supposedly "confirmed scum" to him by vote, but he admittedly saw these things before he voted and that was what led him to that vote.

while bewo may look a little meh on a rough skim of that 1v1, it's because they're actually telling the truth. the truth is sometimes... not that exciting. just like for example when i accused you of fencesitting, your only reply was "well i admit to that, but that's part of my personality and i'm not scum" -- that's the type of rebuttal bewo is giving here. and if you do an in-depth read, bewo does catch dragon out on a lot of other things as well e.g the patch vote progression

[Kanna]

dragon had a lot of motivation to start this 1v1 also btw, because remember it came shortly after you/bewo and i all stated that we'd be open to voting dragon. i think he saw this 1v1 as his last shot. like i think he did exactly this:

Couldn't that excuse also just be used to start a bus if you're scum, though? Like.. "ooh they aren't getting hammered, that makes them scum"...but if you're scum that just seems like a lackadaisy way to toss arbitrary suspicion onto someone. At best this seems like a HORRIBLE plan to sprint us to a loss, and at worst, a tactic to make yourself seem in the clear and create distance. I can't say I'm happy about it either way.

and also thinking back, the reason why he chose bewo over me to 1v1 was (sadly) not because he was attached to me, but because he felt he could make a more convincing case on bewo

[Kanna]

to dragon's allegations of me tunneling, i feel you genuinely do not see from my perspective in that i'm not purposefully making everything you do out to be scummy and not giving you reconsideration room, but you have legit scumsliped too many times that i don't think i can reconsider. the kinds of scumslips i've picked up are not like "oh this is mildly scum indicative" it's "i genuinely can't see this coming from town"

[Kanna]

if you're unconvinced and wanna talk more elpis, i'm super open. i can maybe even do a rough summary of the really scummy things dragon has done, but you can also look at my really long wall posts and whatnot.

i firmly believe some pieces of evidence should always be kept in mind and you shouldn't fall for a last minute viberead over that for the final decision

[Kanna]

tldr; elpis, i am proposing we vote dragon. i won't force you though and i want you to believe in the decision you make so reach out to me if you have concerns about this

[DragonEater70]

Also Kanna, I want to discuss something with you.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are town. That means you genuinely believe that Patch and I are scum. That's fine. Maybe you did sincerely believe that I was attempting to poxket you early on in the day.
But can you please tell me how my scum casing of bewolkt is scummy? How is my solve not comibg from town!me? And how are you failing to see that bewolkt is scum?

Obviously the more likely scenario is that you are scun faking that, but thr fact that you haven't voted me yet gives me enough pause to consider the possibility that you are town. As you said yourself, it's enough for ONE incorrect town vote for a game over, so I am being extra cautious here.