Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Vanderscamp]

Ranger's first half of #676 and last part of #677 are pretty good explanations of why Aureal's stuff made no sense.

Sorry for trying to brainstorm in your mafia game. If you think my thoughts don't make sense, explaining why would've been more productive than going OMG YOU SO SCUMMY!!

Is this a troll?

Do you really think I haven't been trying to explain to you why your worldview made no sense?

[Vanderscamp]

Ranger's first half of #676 and last part of #677 are pretty good explanations of why Aureal's stuff made no sense.

Sorry for trying to brainstorm in your mafia game. If you think my thoughts don't make sense, explaining why would've been more productive than going OMG YOU SO SCUMMY!!

He was giving a lot of credence to the Arco/Ox interaction as never being scum/scum, but not the Ranger/me interaction, when that interaction should have been far more obvious, and additionally I was the main person (correctly) advocating that Arco/Ox wasn't scum/scum, and he was putting me as the third member of that scum team.

He? Who are you talking about here, me?

Drew and I are open wolfing huh

Wtf do you mean "we could have voted Ranger here?"

You spent the entire day having the opportunity to vote Ranger and declined to do so, despite saying at the start of the day that my logic about Aisa or I getting voted to heaven was pointless because getting a non-Ranger mislim today was such an unlikely event.

It means exactly what it means. You spent all that time wanting to vote Ranger. Then after I said I was getting ready to do so as well, you jumped on me instead, apparently leading Drew to follow you because the other votes were on himself. If you'd stayed on Ranger I would've been a third vote there, and Enchant being Enchant would likely have hammered. You left me with the only option being to vote Drew out instead. I kept my vote out of play so long because there was no reason to risk the day ending quickly- I know Enchant likes hammers. AV was away, Ranger was sick, game activity was low in general, and I was trying to think and read things- that's not the time to rush a vote.

Maybe it's confirmation bias but it's really hard to see these actions as something other than trying to get Drew limmed instead of Ranger because I spotted more opportunities to clear people based off of Ranger's flip. I've had the opportunity to hammer Drew for a while now but would have preferred Ranger for that reason. But with deadline 9 hours away, no word from Bella yet, and AV still vla I guess it's on me to do so soon here, before I go to bed. I'm the most confident that he's scum here anyway.

Also, this post is complete nonsense.

Wtf are you talking about with it being hard to see what I'm doing as anything other than trying to get Drew limmed?

This would maybe be believable if I had said at ANY POINT yesterday that Drew was scummy.
I never put any pressure on him at all and I think limming him in that spot over you or Ranger was absurd.

Can you quote anything that involves me "trying to get Drew limmed" to justify what you're saying here?

Your actions speak louder than your words. Ranger was the likely wagon for most of the day, and was still viable even though Drew went e-1 as I explain in the above response. But then you decided to vote me at the end instead.

As to the rest of your post, idk what to even say to it.
I didn't "spend all that time wanting to vote Ranger," I spent all that time actually voting Ranger, a full week in fact. You had the opportunity to do so at any point and declined to.

But, if what you're saying is true, that "I left you with the only option being to vote Drew out instead," then why did you accuse Drew and me of open wolfing?
If I'm forcing your hand in that way, then surely you would have known that we weren't scum together, right?...

[Aureal]

Firstly, I think your progression on me this game on me was super weird.

I'm super weird.

You apparently deep dived my entire iso and called me pretty solid overall.

Yup. I posted that, went to bed, and as soon as I got into bed I started thinking "but that's exactly what scum here are going to want to look like, ugh that was premature to say."

After that, you make post #622, which is essentially you starting to sheep a read by Vox of all people that Ranger and I could be distancing.

Yeah that was also actually a bit of why I thought AV wouldn't be teamed with you two, forgot to mention that- he wouldn't have brought that idea up in that case. I can't even remember for sure now, but maybe it was reading that that started me thinking along those lines, though I'm

pretty

sure I did start wondering if the big Ranger/Vander fight could be a bus first and then saw that and it encouraged me to think that way.

I'd like to address the bold part.

During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.

If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either

A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together

It's A. I was just answering Vox's question- looks like it confused me and I tried to think of explanations under the assumption that what he was saying was true. The scum lied about what happened and confused me. And I'm only just now realizing this, because I don't specifically remember writing that response but I do remember checking Ranger's ISO later expecting to see a Vander vote somewhere that got moved and being confused when it was just an Aisa vote.

Re: hard townsiding, yes, if your solve was Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko, what would you call it?

If the three of us are scum, and my scum partner gives a town read on my other partner, and I spend probably more time than anyone else has spent going after any other player this game just relentlessly shitting on my scum partner for their terrible townread on my OTHER scum partner, what would you call that?

C'mon man, you act like bussing is not a concept that exists. I already explained why that would be an even more valuable strategy in this setup, so it's only prudent to be on the lookout for it. My very first game back here after 16 years away featured a very strong scum bus that caught us his partner whom nobody was going after and thus got him the towncredit to endgame. It happens.

Also, as I already said a while back, I don't think it's ludicrous to think that I could be bussing Ranger this game.
It's not actually within my scum range, but it's possible if you don't know me very well to think that I could be some kind of extremely playing-against-my-wincon maniac scum busser, and it's not ridiculous to think that it's at least an option.

You're so over the top. Bussing isn't playing against your wincon, especially in this setup.

What I do find ridiculous is for you to just casually mention that as a team.

Sigh. What even is the difference- I'm allowed to think it but I'm not allowed to bring up that I'm thinking about it? When I hold back on what I'm thinking and play very carefully and precisely think about what I'm saying, people think that's scummy because scum are careful. When I say things I'm thinking about without spending hours analyzing every nook and cranny of its possible ramifications, well apparently that's scummy too.

It's a little frustrating.

If you thought Ranger and I were scum together, it's in spite of our interactions together, not because of them.
Right?
Are you disputing that, or do you think that someone relentlessly trying to lim someone is above random to be scum vs scum as a general rule?

I... don't think I really have much in the way of 'general rules', I've only been playing for three months really. I take situations as I find them, and I can be a bit of a rebel in how I look at things vs. how things are generally looked at.

You never gave any real reasoning why you thought that that was particularly likely, and especially not for it to be WITH Arko, based on the nature of my push on Ranger, especially since you recently ISOed me.

I admit, the Arko as the third part didn't feel exactly right, but after ruling out AV that seemed the best fit. He was always on my scum radar, much moreso than Bella or even Oc.

I'm not trying to say that this is the same game as death note, but that was your experience of seeing me play as scum, and it certainly wasn't an example of me bussing / playing against my wincon.

You literally couldn't bus in that game. I already said that. Stop equating bussing with playing against wincon. What you did do in that game was get very highly townread as scum, so I know it should likely be in your capability here.

Like, let's take the Arko/Ox interaction.
If we all saw this obviously not scum/scum interaction and I started saying stuff like "yeah I think Arko/Ox/Aureal makes a lot of sense, I can see Ox and Arko just raging at each other at the start of the game," and I didn't have any real reasoning about why I thought that combo of scum was especially likely other than just trying to discredit the reasons why it wasn't unlikely, I would expect to (rightly) take heat for that stance unless I could bring up some kind of relevant past player-specific history on why that kind of scum/scum interaction would be likely from either player.

People are allowed to perceive interactions differently. I don't think Ranger/Vander and Arko/Oclax interactions are all that comparable. Yours is a lengthy battle on several topics - Arko and Oclax was more personal and the emotional response seems real.

[Aureal]

But, if what you're saying is true, that "I left you with the only option being to vote Drew out instead," then why did you accuse Drew and me of open wolfing?

Uh, literally read the words in those quotation marks for the answer to your question?

If I'm forcing your hand in that way, then surely you would have known that we weren't scum together, right?...

Clearly not. Why would I?

[Aureal]

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

[Enchant]

Aureal still not

dead

send to hot beach?

[Bellaphant]

Looking at just page 30, I do lean towards the most likely two combos of the four being,
{Vanderscamp, Enchant}
or
{Aureal, Bellaphant}

Enchant vs Aureal makes it unlikely both are scum given one scum elimination wins the town the game. It's

possible

(gambiting on neither being eliminated), but unlikely.

Since {Vanderscamp, Aureal} is never a team (same as above only much stronger), by PoE, the only team with Aureal would be Bellaphant, and 738 supports this as possible.

Inversely, while Enchant did vote Vanderscamp, the unvote and discussion on page 30 fit as a scumbuddy laying the groundwork to leave anti-buddy interactions which don't endanger either party.

Enchant/Areal are seriously pushing each other.
Vanderscamp/Areal are seriously pushing each other.

Enchant/Vanderscamp appear to be doing the opposite.

However, again; just page 30. I need a deep dive of the other 30 pages to get a better read.

I have a couple of issues with this post: trying to position yourself as the 'loudest' when we basically have the same amount of posts feels disengous and narrativey in the way that some of aureal post do. Also, it just lacks nuance generally: a lot of the 1v1s in the game have felt really picky, like 'technically' or whatever the arko thing was, or whether it's valid to have an early read, or now whether it's valid for aureal to brainstorm a thought process or not. As well as being off putting from the thread, they've all also seemed fairly confusing, which makes me wonder if it's theatre? The only 'genuine' thing seemed to be ox self voting, which is an emotion repsinse but doesn't mean town. Like, normally I can read an argument and work out where the two people are missing each other, but especially this aureal/vander one in kinda failing? I think that bussing in this game is more utility than normal, too.

Bella, what do you think Enchant's motivation here is?

You're the one most familiar with Enchant, your input would be appreciated here!

Part of me feels enchant is unreadable here on purpose. I've said to them twice I'm usually ok at reading them and been ignored/not engaged with, so they obviously don't want to talk about it? They also seem to scum read me/you/vander?? It doesn't feel very progress minded.

Enchant wants to win, generally. It's where the town!enchant mech spech comes from. It's also weirdly hard to vote then out, because people aren't confident reading them: they got vigged by their own traitor in our last game! I'm not seeing that here.

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

Ugh. I read through avs iso last night trying to find interactions but he felt fairly distant from everyone? I asked him a few questions because I didn't feel engaged with but a lot of his early game was circular/insular

[Enchant]

Vote me and we win when Aisa sends Aureal.
Vote Aureal and we win on the spot. You risk nothing, If i am mafia and Aureal is town, Aisa just sends me next instantly and town still win.
If we both town THEN we lose. Well Aureal is not town though.


So yeah vote and wrap game out already, i am bored.

[Bellaphant]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

[Bellaphant]

In trying to work out If there's a downside? Like, whatever enchants alignment is

[Bellaphant]

Is enchant right? If we think aisa can get it right, it almost doesn't matter?

[Ranger]

Is there a particular reason why Bella/Enchant isn't a world, other than that we would all suck?

Mostly?

No.

I see you as scum;
I see Aureal as scum;
I see you two can't be scum together.

It's certainly

possible

you're both town, yes. In that world, we all suck.

I want to trust in my competency.

[Ranger]

Having seen Vander's posting,
Having seen Aureal's posting,
Having seen Bella's posting,

I think I'm comfortable doing this:
VOTE: Aureal

I think that's e-1.

[Aureal]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

[Aureal]

Is there a particular reason why Bella/Enchant isn't a world, other than that we would all suck?

Mostly?

No.

I see you as scum;
I see Aureal as scum;
I see you two can't be scum together.

It's certainly

possible

you're both town, yes. In that world, we all suck.

I want to trust in my competency.

I think it's entirely possible that we all suck. Which is why I'm glad we don't control Aisa, she's the only one catching scum.

Is there anything specific you'd like me to address?

[Ranger]

Is there anything specific you'd like me to address?

I honestly don't know.
UNVOTE: Aureal

You still seem like the most likely scum, and I don't know how to engage on read refinement.

Still, your engagement here is making me second-guess myself.

[Vanderscamp]

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

He didn't lie, Ranger did support it, just never voted for me, because of the reasoning that I would probably just send Ranger to hell in the next phase.

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, I read it as ranger was worried that if vander was town, he'd vote her from the Aisa position. The progression to 'vander might be town ' is fairly clear in iso.

[Bellaphant]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

I get that, but it's more town! Enchant in that he wants to win, rather than to survive. I'd like everyone to respond whether it's a good or bas idea, basically

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Ranger


This is still my preferred vote, although Aureal is second.

I think scum are very possibly bussing today so I'm not paying too much attention to things like putting people at E-1.


I believe Ranger and Aureal are both scummy and I think they could be partners.
I think it's possible they're not partners, but Aureal doing his "test" on Enchant and jumping on that bandwagon, which has mostly come out of nowhere today, makes sense in that world.

I think Aureal/Bella could make sense as a world, in which case we could definitely lose if Rangers dies here, this is the main world I'm worried about with this vote.


The world I'm worried about losing to with an Aureal vote is probably Ranger/Bella, Ranger/Enchant could also make sense.




At the end of the day, and even moreso since no one else has addressed this logic (which I would expect scum to if there were two scum outside Ranger/me and I was saying this stuff), I think the voting supports scumRanger.
It's possible scum just decided to pivot to Drew on the crucial D3 when they were presumably going for the win, but this just seems pretty weird that one scum maximum (Enchant) would have voted for Ranger, when Ranger felt like a consensus kill that scum could have easily gotten away with, and would likely have made me in particular look quite bad, instead of going for the Drew wagon, which almost definitely made the scum team look worse, with two scum minimum voting there and Vox having started it.

Even Ranger surviving over Kowabungah is somewhat suspicious.

There's no smoking gun for Ranger that would have been impossible to happen if Ranger were town, but it all adds up to a pretty unlikely game if it's the case.

[Vanderscamp]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

I get that, but it's more town! Enchant in that he wants to win, rather than to survive. I'd like everyone to respond whether it's a good or bas idea, basically

It's a "bad idea" that is a towny mindset.

If Enchant is scum, he's gambiting that it won't actually happen and people will read him as town from it.

Possible to do as scum?

Sure, but imo it's a point in his favor and Enchant wasn't really on the table for me today anyway.

[Bellaphant]

Mainly because we seem to be going round in circles: we just retreated from e-1 on aureal, I don't want to vote vander, ranger is the only person enchant hasn't named as target, aureal doesn't seem to want to vote then, but they'd be Vanders top pick?

If we are going to have to compromise, we should be giving aisa the most info possible: how do we do that?

P-edit I feel like rangers been the 'compromise' since day one though?
Pp-edit can you rephras the second post? Im not 100% following

[Aureal]

Wait, Vox lied about Ranger supporting Vander in the heaven vote and nobody pointed it out until now??? WTF

Watch, Aisa is going to be the only one who noticed it and that's why she zapped him.

He didn't lie, Ranger did support it, just never voted for me, because of the reasoning that I would probably just send Ranger to hell in the next phase.

"I'll vote Vander if there's no other option" sure doesn't sound like support to me, just resignment. IDK how you two can think it's reasonable to call it that. He certainly confused me with it. So let me come back to this:

During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.

If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either

A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together

If YOU had a look at this at all, which you clearly must have since you point out Ranger never voted you and had Aisa as top town, where is this stuff on Vox coming from at the end of the first paragraph? Ranger never specifically mentioned Vox, who was in the middle of her reads; she just did some analysis that there must be scum voting you. You apparently thought her reluctance to vote you was because of that analysis during that phase, and Ranger corrected you in 553, which you promptly acknowledged. So why are you back to your old argument, and specifically bringing Vox into the argument?

[Aureal]

^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal

Not to me, lol. We don't have control over what Aisa does and Enchant pretending we do is disingenuous.

Help, I used the word disingenuous in an argument! I hate when people do that.

I get that, but it's more town! Enchant in that he wants to win, rather than to survive. I'd like everyone to respond whether it's a good or bas idea, basically

What reason would townEnchant have to think that flipping the two of us would lead to a win? It wouldn't. He's given no reason to think I'm scum, let alone "10/10 scum" that guarantees a win. If he were actually trying to solve I think he'd see that. Why would I suddenly go after him if I'm scum? You've pointed out that he doesn't get eliminated easily, but I do and he knows it.

[Alianna]

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