Newbie 2119: Pictures of People Wearing Cool Hats | GAME OVER

[Cometbright]

Oh happy birthday Bella! (At least over in this time-zone it is)

[Cometbright]

Basically, comet and black seem to be going with the flow too much? Comet was fine with the scum slip Ans now says it's unlikely

I do think I might've been a little bit over-zealous, but to defend myself a little I did let it be known at the time that I could see a way for it to still be a town post. I definitely didn't want you hammered (hence why I didn't put you to E-1 to stop self-hammering and any similar newbie game shenanigans) but my posts from that time were me entering into a "Assuming this is a true genuine scumslip, here's what I think:" which is why all my bursts posts during that period had a disclaimer something along the lines of me once again repeating: "Assuming this is a scumslip."

Yes I know the flip-floppiness isn't great, but your explanation for it matched up with the one I had in my head that could explain it so I dropped suspicion. I also realised that I was falling into a similar pitfall as my previous game and decided to go with my gut a little and not see it as a scumslip.

[Cometbright]

I think Bella might be onto something and scum is likely present within the people who committed full-send to the slip wagon.

From townreading you now, this retrospectively makes Comet look pretty bad.
I'm a little confused here because reading through between Dragon first raising it and Bella giving her explanation, I wouldn't say I'm the top 'committed full-send' person there - if anything most of my posts read kinda flip-floppy and not really wanting to commit to it which I recall Black mentioning. You yourself even mentioned in #181 that it sounded like I was coaching scum!Bella to give her an out - but now you're saying that you think I'm scum who was trying to full commit to the wagon and push her?

[Cometbright]

(Preview broke? This is responding to #327's above quotes)

I'm a little confused here because reading through between Dragon first raising it and Bella giving her explanation, I wouldn't say I'm the top 'committed full-send' person there - if anything most of my posts read kinda flip-floppy and not really wanting to commit to it which I recall Black mentioning. You yourself even mentioned in #181 that it sounded like I was coaching scum!Bella to give her an out - but now you're saying that you think I'm scum who was trying to full commit to the wagon and push her?

[Cometbright]

Thinking back, Comet's chat about self-hammering and that is something I never really followed up on. I'll be catching back up with that.

I find it scummy that they didn't vote you and find out.

Realistically no-one is hammering at page 6 and going on to survive D2 if you flip town. If you did self-hammer & flip scum at that point, then great - we're halfway towards our wincon.

It doesn't feel like cautious town to me. It feels like cautious scum not wanting to be associated on a wagon on someone they know is town and could flip quickly.

Kind of wish you followed up on #319 because I explain why in #194. I'll quote it here for easy reference:

Because if it was a true scumslip then chances are Day 1 would end in a Bella execute anyway (because five of us would vote for her) and my logic was that I'd rather have a Bella execute in the latter third of Day 1 after we have time to discuss it and theorise about scumteam as opposed to Bella executing herself early on and preventing said discussion.

[Cometbright]

I think Bella might be onto something and scum is likely present within the people who committed full-send to the slip wagon.

It doesn't feel like cautious town to me. It feels like cautious scum not wanting to be associated on a wagon on someone they know is town and could flip quickly.

Do you think I was full committed to the wagon or do you think I was trying not to be associated with the wagon? Personally I don't feel like I was committing full-send given I was explicitly trying to avoid a hammer, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly your stand here is.

[Cometbright]

Hmm... want to discuss more but I think I'm just walking around in circles here - happy to discuss any of this with whoever wants to pick at my posts. Will probably be heading off soon and might not be hugely available tomorrow, (first session of a new DnD campaign!) but will try to at least pop by later into the day to respond to anything.

Night all!

[Venmar]

No. At present I do not townread Bella at all.

At present I have her as null, maybe leaning scum but there are better people to pursue at present.

Low-key vibing with Bella's posts on this page to be honest. Reads like disgruntled town.

I think Bella might be onto something and scum is likely present within the people who committed full-send to the slip wagon.

For me that reaffirms that I'm looking in the right place with Venmar and Dragon, and I'll commit now to doing an ISO of both Black and Comet over the weekend.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that Delta has gone from "not townreading Bella at all" to "vibing with Bella's posts" to actively hunting people out of her wagon? Read progression is a thing but Delta's attack on me for the Bella wagon makes this extra weird since he was chainsawing me for attacking one of his scumreads, and now that scumread is now a townread. Makes Delta's superfluous attack on me for talking about the PT slip feel more motivated than before.

[Venmar]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Deltabreedy

[Venmar]

I'm semi convinced that Delta is either partners with Bella or is scum who tried to opportunistically jump on me once he realized the slip wasn't going to stay as a slip and wanted to exploit that by leveraging it into an easy attack on me. Delta is scum in both of these scenarios, Bella in only one, hence the vote change.

[patchwork]

Spoiler: Patchwork's #247

I don't think there is anything suspicious about a bunch of players jumping on your post thinking it's a slip and discussing it. Whether it is or it isn't, it was only page 6 of D1 and it's as good of a springboard as any for the game to actually develop. I don't think you throwing shade on a bunch of players discussing your post makes sense unless you're !scum Bella more interested in stiffling discussion and complaining that a bunch of players discussed your posts before you could get ahead of it faster and steer the discussion how you'd want instead.

Considering #127 feels completely unprovoked, I don't see why you'd be motivated to point out that you'd make a post like what Delta was quoting from Dragon without at least making it clear with a quote or reference to it. Like #127 makes no mention of Delta or Dragon, Delta's #126 and Dragons #33 have nothing to do with you. So? Not sure I am buying your explanation

PEdit; was replying to this post:

The fact three people have jumped on 'its a scum slip ' without asking how likely that actually is (like, I've seen it....once, in the last year) should be ringing alarm bells. The partner hunting is Sus as well.

P-edit no, I know. I would make the kind of post dragon made when I'm town (in general), as the reasoning fits with how I think. So, I can see it from town!dragon.

this feels town but am mostly unsure

What feels town? The Venmar post or the Bella post? Why?

the venmar post obv lol
i find it towny because calling bella out for her reaction isn't inherently ai (both town and scum would do it), but it feels towny primarily due to the way they say it, if that makes sense. it feels like a natural conclusion and feels like something town would do over scum imo

[patchwork]

TOWNREAD

This is clearly LAMIST and therefore you are confirmed mafia rolecop.
Just kidding, there's no mafia roleblocker in this setup.

Am I doing this right, guys?

For real though I don't think I like this entrance by Black so my RVS vote has turned semi-serious.

He never said 'this is a shit vote ' but I read that as the message. Like...'here is a joke to cover the fact I feel weird about scum reading this slot and am also aware it's a bad reason to do so but here we are.'

The thing is, now reading that back, it feels more awkward than just straight town. The version I just wrote feels like a really town thought process, but from others' reactions, I'm now doubting if this whole thing is over something that wasn't even there.

Am I making sense at all?

bella ur not answering the question

[patchwork]

"I don't think scum

sees something a bit weak, tells you it's weak

and votes anyway?"

@Bella, where did Dragon say he saw something weak? And where did he tell us it was weak?

I just feel like I'm not getting a straight answer for this question

Yeah

[patchwork]

'meh, why would scum basically admit to their thought process being a bit shit'

towncred, lol

[patchwork]

UNVOTE: Dragon

Fairs fair. I didn't read that as progression but side by side yeah, I get it.

I don't agree that it's TvT, but maybe I am being a little bit overzealous in my pursuit. Like I say, trying to break my tunnel tendancies and keep an open mind.

Dragon, I believe in using my vote as a clear indicator of where my thoughts are - before I put it back on Venmar, where do you think I should be looking instead?

Ninja'd by Bella but phoneposting so will post them read & address.

Yeah, townread on Delta. He's less tunnely this game and is interacting with a large amount of slots too, which is a plus.

[patchwork]

@dragon, could you maybe direct your issues with me into clear points? Coz I feel like I've explained both the original post, Ans then my reaction (there's a big crossover between 'slots I'm not town reading' and 'slots that were more than happy to jump on clumsy wording (likely) to be a scum slip (unlikely)'. Plus, apart from one readlist, I feel I've been the most open with my reads? So like....what's the actual issue?

1. Even before the purposted slip, I had asked ypu regarding your reads, and still haven't gotten a clear answer. Specifically I want to know if your townread on me still holds, and if you have any scumreads (I guess you were implying that you were scumreading Comet and Black earlier? If that's the case it wasn't clear, and I would like you to state your reasoning for it).
2. I agree with I think it was Venmar? Or Comet? Who said that it's anti-town to attack the people who were voting you, because they did have a pretty legitimate reason to vote you. I would also like to add my personal gripe to it: I do not like when someone points a group as scummy instead of an individual. I would actually have liked if you pointed out a specific person (or even set of individuals) you think was scummy for joining your wagon, with the full reasoning for why you find it scummy.

Also you say I'm throwing shade but like 'until she meaningfully contributes '. Like...bruh.

Hope the above clarified it.

It's not defensive to point out that five people (delta, commet, venmar, black and you) all's jumped on and seemed to just accept a scum slip. For you all to be town, that would mean the scum team is exactly two of: patch, kawia and AV.

Is that.... likely to you?

P-edit I'll look at that post now but maybe not coherently answer

Is this direceted at me?
If so, then yeah I guess I get why you're saying it's not defensive assuming town!Bella.

My issue a lot with my town game is I find it a lot harder to justify my scum reads, especially when they feel crazy. I sr av in our last game, but he manages to push through two lims, one on a claimed town pr, as scum: so I empathised a lot with dragons 'this is a bit shit but here we are' but...like I said, I'm worried now I projected!

Ooooohhhhh okay I get it nowww.
Yeah I totally understand, you probably did project which is funny because I can totlly idebtify with what you are saying about crazy scumreads, it just doesn't apply to this situation.

And it's possible that the slip (use of "town!Bella") is a problem of semantics as much as the use of "we" is.

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but you are still not among my townreads right now.

I am gonna go to sleep now and then do an ISO of some players later on to see who I should be voting now.

Ninja'd:
Delta - I am going to sleep now so will look at it more seriously tomorrow, but have a look at voting either Black or AurorusVox? And tell me what you think.

This post looks so chunky
Good night dragon

[patchwork]

Yeah, I'm starting to townread Bella a little more. Benefit of the doubt goes to her and the way she resolved Black's questions pings town but only a little. Probably still null though, especially compared to some other players.

[patchwork]

On comet: feel like their play can come from both town and scum so I'm not quite sure how to feel about it.

Okay, gotta go! Don't hammer while I'm gone guys

[DragonEater70]

Good morning.

Dragon why are you still trying to discredit my argument about Venmar's intentions? 'We' and 'I' are not interchangeable, so saying it's an argument from semantics is either ignorant or deliberately attempting to discredit an argument by diminishing the validity of it down to a bite size retort. It's a very 'PR' counter argument to take and I really don't see the motivation for defending Venmar so dilligently.

I'll answer the actual substance of this post in a bit, but I want to tell you something about tone first.

When someone uses appeal to emotion (or even when pocketing), that person is attempting to get others to like/sympathize with him, so as to make them less willing to vote him and more willing to vote with him.

Delta, this game you are constantly doing the opposite. The tone of your posts, regardless of alignment, makes people want to vote you and makes it harder to vote with you, simply because it is not friendly. I suggest, if you want to be more successful as both town and scum, that you work on changing that tone.

Specifically I dislike the narrative that I am trying to "discredit" what you are saying about Venmat, when I simply argued against it. It feels like an hostile attempt to paint what I was doing as malicious, when there was no malicious intent involved.
I don't think it's actually AI for you to do that, but it IS alienating.

[DragonEater70]

Now to substance:

I was more looking at the 'joke' which was regarding setup and that which was super weird.

I guess that's understandable.

Dragon why are you still trying to discredit my argument about Venmar's intentions? 'We' and 'I' are not interchangeable, so saying it's an argument from semantics is either ignorant or deliberately attempting to discredit an argument by diminishing the validity of it down to a bite size retort. It's a very 'PR' counter argument to take and I really don't see the motivation for defending Venmar so dilligently.

The reason I argued against what you said is simply because to me, the use of "we" in that context is extremely natural, and yeah I can't see why would you ever attack that.

I don't really SR Black this game (never a good sign) although I'll have a slim.through her ISO - and you're asking me to vote for AV on... What grounds exactly?

It's so weak.

1. I know you don't SR any of them. I was telling you to look at the possibility because I don't particularly townread either and I thought you wanted to try a new approach.
2. I am asking you to vote AV on the grounds that they made a random unexplained push in RVS and then disappeared into the aether.
3. Of course it's weak but it's a better push than Venmar. Who I am reading as town.
4. I don't get why the hostile tone here. You are the one who asked me to tell you who to look at. I was planning to sleep but I gave you two names who I definitely didn't townread and thought it was worth looking at. Your tone doesn't fit the situation.

[DragonEater70]

I think Bella might be onto something and scum is likely present within the people who committed full-send to the slip wagon.

For me that reaffirms that I'm looking in the right place with Venmar and Dragon, and I'll commit now to doing an ISO of both Black and Comet over the weekend.

That's a horrible post honestly.
Right after saying they don't understand why I would recommend looking at Black.
Ugh
Maybe my gut was wrong about the scumteam earlier?
Let me read everything else that was posted before I make a judgement.

[DragonEater70]

TOWNREAD

This is clearly LAMIST and therefore you are confirmed mafia rolecop.
Just kidding, there's no mafia roleblocker in this setup.

Am I doing this right, guys?

For real though I don't think I like this entrance by Black so my RVS vote has turned semi-serious.

He never said 'this is a shit vote ' but I read that as the message. Like...'here is a joke to cover the fact I feel weird about scum reading this slot and am also aware it's a bad reason to do so but here we are.'

The thing is, now reading that back, it feels more awkward than just straight town. The version I just wrote feels like a really town thought process, but from others' reactions, I'm now doubting if this whole thing is over something that wasn't even there.

Am I making sense at all?

bella ur not answering the question

Random question but who are you scumreading?

[DragonEater70]

This post looks so chunky
Good night dragon

Chunky as in big?

[patchwork]

good morning dragon it is nearly 2 am where I am lol

[patchwork]

Random question but who are you scumreading?

i used to scumread bella really hard and then i scumread venmar and then i scumread you and at this point i don't know and don't think i can make conclusions yet because i'm really bad at scumhunting
i can say that i townread black, you, and venmar, though