Newbie 2118 | Terrieresque! - Day 4

[SeeEmpty]

Also will say that we as a town, probably need to massclaim today, we can't massclaim on day 3 as that enables the scum to hide in the PR's and gives them too much leeway, forcing claims today disables this fact, and while we will likely lose our PR's due to this, we need to do this to enable us to actually scumhunt effectively, and not enable the scum team to hide easily in the PR's.

Hold on... Before the Tracker announced his result, you mentioned that we should mass claim, but once you found out that the Tracker result isn't indistinguishable, you suddenly thought that there is no point in mass claiming.

A Tracker claim in D1 could mean we are in setup A2, B1 and B3. In 2 of those setups, a tracker could potentially get useful result. But your original thought on mass claiming is based on your understanding that a "no result" is indistinguishable between being roleblocked and target no action (otherwise, what explains on the change of mind after the clearing up of the mechanism?).

So what seems to me is that you somehow already

know

that the Tracker is not getting any useful result

before

the Tracker said so, and since it is not distinguishable (in your understanding), you think we should mass claim.

The only possible person to know that is scum.

Caught you.

VOTE: JasonWazza

[Umlaut]

SeeEmpty, walk me through that a little slower? I don't quite follow it, maybe because I didn't really follow why Jason changed his mind about mass claim in the first place.

[Kowahbunga]

@Mod: Are no result (due to nothing to track), and a Roleblocked; No result 2 different results for a tracker in this setup?

Maybe i'm reading those PM's wrong, but to me, no result and roleblocked should look the same.

I personally scum read people who "@mod question" during the game.

[Kowahbunga]

Also will say that we as a town, probably need to massclaim today, we can't massclaim on day 3 as that enables the scum to hide in the PR's and gives them too much leeway, forcing claims today disables this fact, and while we will likely lose our PR's due to this, we need to do this to enable us to actually scumhunt effectively, and not enable the scum team to hide easily in the PR's.

Hold on... Before the Tracker announced his result, you mentioned that we should mass claim, but once you found out that the Tracker result isn't indistinguishable, you suddenly thought that there is no point in mass claiming.

A Tracker claim in D1 could mean we are in setup A2, B1 and B3. In 2 of those setups, a tracker could potentially get useful result. But your original thought on mass claiming is based on your understanding that a "no result" is indistinguishable between being roleblocked and target no action (otherwise, what explains on the change of mind after the clearing up of the mechanism?).

So what seems to me is that you somehow already

know

that the Tracker is not getting any useful result

before

the Tracker said so, and since it is not distinguishable (in your understanding), you think we should mass claim.

The only possible person to know that is scum.

Caught you.

VOTE: JasonWazza

I love this, and this is town. I'll join this wagon with you.

VOTE: Jason

[Kowahbunga]

SeeEmpty, walk me through that a little slower? I don't quite follow it, maybe because I didn't really follow why Jason changed his mind about mass claim in the first place.

What he is saying is that Jason knows you were roleblocked before you mentioned your result.

[Kowahbunga]

Also will say that we as a town, probably need to massclaim today, we can't massclaim on day 3 as that enables the scum to hide in the PR's and gives them too much leeway, forcing claims today disables this fact, and while we will likely lose our PR's due to this, we need to do this to enable us to actually scumhunt effectively, and not enable the scum team to hide easily in the PR's.

Essentially the scummy thing about this is, that Jason shouldn't know if Umlaut got a result yet or not. If Umlaut got a result, then mass claim is definitely not necessary. By asking for the mass claim, Jason is showing his hand that he's already prepared for the "no result" that Umlaut is getting.

[JasonWazza]

Jesus you guys assume a lot, i didn't know the results were the same, so in my mind we get 0 info on which setup we are in as town.

No matter what we were to do, a massclaim should come before we find out the tracker info if they actually got any, because that way we can see what possible contradictions we get from the claims.

For example, X visited Bewolkt last night, they claim Doctor and Umlaut had their info, we know they are scum for sure.

The change of mind is for the simple fact that we can assume we are in either A2 or C2 now, and the claims have less issues regardless (rather then 3 different claims that all can't be true that we have very little info to go on to try and confirm, this is multiple claims of the same type, which is easier to try and work through.)

Not to mention anyone outside of A2 and C2 can easily claim and contradict Umlaut and we get to the same spot, and that's without a mass claim because for some reason the roleblocker is way too obvious, and gives way too much information to town.

[JasonWazza]

@Mod: Are no result (due to nothing to track), and a Roleblocked; No result 2 different results for a tracker in this setup?

Maybe i'm reading those PM's wrong, but to me, no result and roleblocked should look the same.

I personally scum read people who "@mod question" during the game.

Simple fact is i'd rather trust the information for a fact, then go off someone that could be lying to me.

I feel like that is a very simple concept.

[JasonWazza]

Also need to do this.

VOTE: SeeEmpty

[JasonWazza]

Will also point out this, SeeEmpty's read on Alianna can't be trusted at all, because they refused to post before hammer, so of course they are going to make up some reason that Alianna is town, and as scum they would know that.

[Mewtaph]

I think that based on Jason's early interactions with Delta's slot, no scum wants to engage themselves in a fight, especially during D1. Jason is the player I feel most comfortable removing from my elimination pool. I don't see this changing any time soon.

[JasonWazza]

I mean the weird thing is, i think we get to the same point we had yesterday of you can get me to E-1, but can't reasonably actually get me to the point of a lim, without something significant, and the thing SeeEmpty decides to pull out is basically just a pile of crap, and puts us at the same stall point of yesterday where you got no way to lim me, but are more focused on burning time.

Also at the point where i have to gather that the Bewolkt kill was PR hunting in the pool of players that were more lurkery, and also trying to shoot the middle ground nothings over trying to shoot elsewhere to avoid protection/blocking, seems like a really weird shot to me at the least.

What worries me is even then the shot doesn't make a huge amount of sense, because there were still better shots that meet that criteria, which leads me to believe that at least 1 Scum member is in the similar pool.

[Mewtaph]

I think between Kowahbunga and Merlyn, there is at least one town. I don't think that their interactions with each other are likely to come from a scum pair.

[JasonWazza]

Honestly my thinking is that it's some combination of {SeeEmpty, Kowah, T3} as the scum team.

Mewtaph and Merlyn read as town to me, Umlaut isn't worth considering at this point (Unless exactly T3 is going to counterclaim Umlaut, then i'd consider it, otherwise everyone has had the chance to counter and not done so).

[SeeEmpty]

SeeEmpty, walk me through that a little slower? I don't quite follow it, maybe because I didn't really follow why Jason changed his mind about mass claim in the first place.

The conversation went:

Jason: We should mass claim.
Umlaut: No. I got blocked. We are A2.
Jason: You can't tell the difference between you got blocked or the target doesn't do anything.
Umlaut: Yes I can. (confirm by mod).
Jason: Okay no point to mass claim.

What was the thing that happens between "we should mass claim" and "no point to mass claim"? It was after he knows that tracker can tell "being blocked" and "target no-action" apart. But why does that info changed his mind?

The only possible explanation is that Jason somehow already knows that the tracker will get no result, and he thought that the info is indistinguishable from tracking someone that is not doing anything or tracker being blocked, hence we will have no info to work with, and therefore the only way to proceed onwards is mass claim.

So after he found out about the mechanism, he knows that's a bad idea.

Jesus you guys assume a lot, i didn't know the results were the same, so in my mind we get 0 info on which setup we are in as town.

You did think that the results were the same.

How would you know if we will be getting 0 info? That's assuming you know that Umlaut will get no result, which is not guaranteed from what we have known (there are setups that the Tracker can potentially get some result).

The change of mind is for the simple fact that we can assume we are in either A2 or C2 now, and the claims have less issues regardless (rather then 3 different claims that all can't be true that we have very little info to go on to try and confirm, this is multiple claims of the same type, which is easier to try and work through.)

Not to mention anyone outside of A2 and C2 can easily claim and contradict Umlaut and we get to the same spot, and that's without a mass claim because for some reason the roleblocker is way too obvious, and gives way too much information to town.

Stop making things up. Why are we assuming we're only in A2 or C2? If we trust Umlaut claim and result, we can only be in A2. If we do not trust his claim, then we can still be in any setup. Why C2 in particular?

That mass claim suggestion based on the point that town will know nothing from the Tracker is such a bad scum slip.

[SeeEmpty]

I think that based on Jason's early interactions with Delta's slot, no scum wants to engage themselves in a fight, especially during D1. Jason is the player I feel most comfortable removing from my elimination pool. I don't see this changing any time soon.

Why do you think scum would not want to engage in a fight in D1? Why does fighting in D1 automatically makes someone a strong town read in your view?

[JasonWazza]

The only possible explanation is that Jason somehow already knows that the tracker will get no result, and he thought that the info is indistinguishable from tracking someone that is not doing anything or tracker being blocked, hence we will have no info to work with, and therefore the only way to proceed onwards is mass claim.

Because regardless if we don't get the info of being blocked as a separate thing, we want claims before both a negative and a positive result, the aim is to lock in the claim for scum before they know if they were tracked or not.

Jesus you guys assume a lot, i didn't know the results were the same, so in my mind we get 0 info on which setup we are in as town.

You did think that the results were the same.

How would you know if we will be getting 0 info? That's assuming you know that Umlaut will get no result, which is not guaranteed from what we have known (there are setups that the Tracker can potentially get some result).

My bad, posting first thing in the morning and confusing words, to fix what i said, i didn't know the results were different.

We get 0 info on the setup assuming you don't know if you got blocked or not (you realize a tracker in this setup is like super likely to get a went nowhere result without being blocked right?)

Stop making things up. Why are we assuming we're only in A2 or C2? If we trust Umlaut claim and result, we can only be in A2. If we do not trust his claim, then we can still be in any setup. Why C2 in particular?

That mass claim suggestion based on the point that town will know nothing from the Tracker is such a bad scum slip.

C2 because someone would have spoken up negatively otherwise? (again assuming that T3 has nothing to say)

What you seem to be confusing is that the massclaim has to do with a negative result, rather then just not giving a result first, and locking in scum claims before a result.

[JasonWazza]

Like here is what we have to accept as a town just to be clear.

Unless T3 claims we aren't, we are either in A2 or C2, we can't know for certain which, because we can't confirm Umlaut 100%, as he could just be lying that we are in A2, this part is for each specific townie to decide on their own.

Given that, there is 1 Jailkeeper in the town, this is also just a fact at this point (again assuming T3 doesn't counter with something).

The reason we can't confirm Umlaut is that if the mafia was already 2 goons, Delta got away with the claim, therefore they can assume that there is exactly a Jailkeeper left hidden, and therefore would just pretend that we are A2 to keep the claim alive.

The only thing that can confirm Umlaut 100% is if we flip a Mafia Roleblocker.

[T3]

VOTE: Jason
I have nothing to say about the setup.

[T3]

Will also point out this, SeeEmpty's read on Alianna can't be trusted at all, because they refused to post before hammer, so of course they are going to make up some reason that Alianna is town, and as scum they would know that.

What do you mean by SeeEmpty ‘refused’ to post before deadline? Did he not say that he would be away?

[T3]

VOTE: Jason
I have nothing to say about the setup.

This is

E-1

btw

[JasonWazza]

Will also point out this, SeeEmpty's read on Alianna can't be trusted at all, because they refused to post before hammer, so of course they are going to make up some reason that Alianna is town, and as scum they would know that.

What do you mean by SeeEmpty ‘refused’ to post before deadline? Did he not say that he would be away?

Unless i'm crazy, this excuse came after the hammer.

[JasonWazza]

Which i might point out, that might literally be an actual scum slip since Scum have day talk.

[Merlyn]

The conversation went:

Jason: We should mass claim.
Umlaut: No. I got blocked. We are A2.
Jason: You can't tell the difference between you got blocked or the target doesn't do anything.
Umlaut: Yes I can. (confirm by mod).
Jason: Okay no point to mass claim.

This is a mischaracterization of that convo. It actually goes:

Jason: We should mass claim, bc there are too many potentially power roles for scum to hide behind
Umlaut: No. I got blocked. We are A2, so there's only jailkeeper and they should stay hidden.
Jason: You can't tell the difference between you got blocked or the target doesn't do anything, so we don't know for sure it's a jailkeeper.
Umlaut: Yes I can. (confirm by mod).
Jason: Okay no point to mass claim.

Will also point out this, SeeEmpty's read on Alianna can't be trusted at all, because they refused to post before hammer, so of course they are going to make up some reason that Alianna is town, and as scum they would know that.

What do you mean by SeeEmpty ‘refused’ to post before deadline? Did he not say that he would be away?

Unless i'm crazy, this excuse came after the hammer.

He did not say they'd be away, the first he'd said of it was 554, half an hour after the hammer.

VOTE: Jason
I have nothing to say about the setup.

Well, good, but how about ANYTHING else? Why is Jason your vote? What are your scum and townreads?

[Merlyn]

Which i might point out, that might literally be an actual scum slip since Scum have day talk.

Can you clarify this one for me? I'm not sure I understand which post you're talking about.