Mini Normal 2294: Monkey Business (Endgame)

[implosion]

Vote Count 5.1

Not Voting (5): KawaiiKame, geraintm, Gimli, Ausuka, Klick

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is April 17 at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2023-04-17 20:00:00).

Prodding KawaiiKame.

[Gimli]

I think we should absolutely let the prod go through and let a replacement pick it up and read it through

it's the most protown thing to happen with the gamestate atm, especially if kawa is indeed town which is where I'm currently leaning

we've many days left to get it right let's use that time! I'm not in a hurry myself...

ofc the POE can cross vote as much as they'd like

[geraintm]

I am happy to wait for the replacement. I am finding it hard to argue against an empty chair

[Gimli]

I just read nepenthe, I never considered reading nepenthe to help me figure out but here we go:

pretty much everything you've contributed thus far has read as noncommittal attempts to look like you're contributing but without solidly outing a read or providing any information/thoughts that could progress the game, some selections:

^ 7 days, a whole ass week, we need to utilize the time effectively not end the day immediately with eliminating Elsa...

the elsa jay wagon is horrible imo. even if she is scum, seems like a wasteful flip when there's this pool of scummy slots to pick from.

^ Why is this even happening?

Absolutely bad vote, 0 wisdom in the crowd, unvote now
Why follow the mob? The tyranny of the majority? What utility does eliminating Elsa give us? None, 0, in my pov

May you please expand upon this explanation? Enchant changing meta does not implicate Enchant, at best only indicates scum, Idek Enchant's meta so its irrelevant to me until I know it

you had one post where i kinda saw the vision (234) and it felt like you were making a good point but besides that, after reading you i just get this feeling that you're playing safe and not in a neutral/towny way, it comes off like you're afraid to say anything definitive that could later come back up and be used against you depending on who gets lynched today.

so, in the aim of getting day 1 over with as quick as possible VOTE: Elsa Jay
i will continue for the rest of today to follow the wisdom of the crowd

is it a ms dot net thing specifically to want to rush through day one or why does everyone act like the day needs to be over as quickly as possible because this is at least the second instance i've seen of "i can't do shit on day 1/i don't wanna be on day 1"

Look forward to hearing thatvreason Nepe

i don't find their play sincere in that their overreactions to being voted read way more as scared mafia "pr" than scared town (vanilla or otherwise) to me so i assume they're some kind of scum one-shot who hasn't been able to use their ability and won't if they're lynched today because otherwise, i don't see anyone who is actually town caring so much to the point they're that thrown each time someone mentions them and doesn't follow it with a tr. i'm not buying it, i think it was gimil who called them "bleeding town" (may have been someone else, i can fact check, don't @ me) which to me reads as a much more sincere (but imo incorrect) read than anything elsa's outed all game.

the way nep cased kawaii here is similar to way she cased me. I have the feeling this push is +town for kawa.

I think nep/gera's interactions are pretty much +scum for gera, it seems interested to talk to the slot but not about the slot or trying to determine gera's alignment and the same can be said for how gera behaves with nep. so yeah.

[Klick]

The way you read back on things reconfirms what you already have in mind
This isn't exactly criticism of you, or at least unique to you, it's a very natural psychological thing
But it does get in the way of critical analysis

I have found myself feeling a pit in my stomach when I begin reading a post of yours that starts with 'I have found a different lens to look at the game through' because I then strongly suspect that it will end with your Kawaii!town worldview being reaffirmed because that's what you're looking for
An accurate critical lens isn't going to draw the same conclusions 100% of the time when looking at data; at some point you should see something that makes you go 'hm, this goes against what I'm currently thinking'

even if your assumed conclusion is correct

and the scumteam is myself and geraintm
I suspect what is happening is that you've already got a set of evidence that is actually convincing to you and what you're currently doing is bolstering that conclusion with several smaller things that aren't as convincing

This is a process that is easier to see from the perspective of knowing your conclusion is wrong, but it should also be observable without knowing that

[geraintm]

I think nep/gera's interactions are pretty much +scum for gera, it seems interested to talk to the slot but not about the slot or trying to determine gera's alignment and the same can be said for how gera behaves with nep. so yeah.

that was day 1 wasn't it? you are turning Nep / SKy's posts towards me as something i can control?

ive looked at my posts at Nep

please associate me with gwen stefani

you wish

i read Nep's entrance. that made a whole lot of no sense. i am hoping they'll be better with some shut eye

Look forward to hearing thatvreason Nepe

Look forward to hearing thatvreason Nepe

i don't find their play sincere in that their overreactions to being voted read way more as scared mafia "pr" than scared town (vanilla or otherwise) to me so i assume they're some kind of scum one-shot who hasn't been able to use their ability and won't if they're lynched today because otherwise, i don't see anyone who is actually town caring so much to the point they're that thrown each time someone mentions them and doesn't follow it with a tr. i'm not buying it, i think it was gimil who called them "bleeding town" (may have been someone else, i can fact check, don't @ me) which to me reads as a much more sincere (but imo incorrect) read than anything elsa's outed all game.

i find your posts really hard to follow, too many commas.
i don't like the whole "locked in my vote" thing, i don't believe it.


naughty point for you.

[also, the L word is banned on site]

i think that is all i said at them. considering they were absent half of day 1, that seems normal levels of interaction with another player to me for me.

im having a hard time refuting your arguments that i am scum when they are so wishy washy, nothing even halfway concrete to them

[Klick]

geraintm who do you think is scum?

[Ausuka]

Geraintm is town, he's genuine in this game. He was demotivated early, but his content towards the middle of the game looks nothing like scum!geraintm. His engagement with me on this just now is also really towny.

Klick sorry if you answered this already but can you explain why you thought this about gera and when you stopped townreading him

[Gimli]

Vote Count 5.1

Not Voting (5): KawaiiKame, geraintm, Gimli, Ausuka, Klick

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is April 17 at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2023-04-17 20:00:00).

Prodding KawaiiKame.

that was the 24h btw, idk what the rules are but I guess we can expect a replacement?

[Gimli]

and gameday clock stops ig?

also obligatory get furtive

[Klick]

Geraintm is town, he's genuine in this game. He was demotivated early, but his content towards the middle of the game looks nothing like scum!geraintm. His engagement with me on this just now is also really towny.

Klick sorry if you answered this already but can you explain why you thought this about gera and when you stopped townreading him

I went through a good chunk of gera's meta trying to find more answers in a gamestate where I didn't feel like I had any decent reads. I can't remember what exactly it was about this game that looked different from the scum games I looked at. I think it was largely about how legitimate I thought his solving looked. The townread itself was backed up by shaky reasoning but it was largely motivated by wanting to get a more full solve than I had. As such, there's not much of a time when I *stopped townreading* gera, but with time the read grew a bit stale (and obviously after the Sky flip it became obvious that the read was just wrong).

[Ausuka]

Why did you say his posting on d2 was obviously town if it's, like, just a meta read?

[Klick]

I wanted to be confident instead of coming back with 'meh, still not really sure'
Because that's how I felt about most slots in the game at the time and it was getting to the point where we needed better than that

I also don't think 'just a meta read' is as weak as that sometimes
In this case it was so it's tangential but meta reads can be very strong

[Klick]

In a late game scenario where we needed to start getting answers I had no answers that I was high confidence in
Which now makes sense since the scumteam wasn't doing anything, everyone looked meh at worst

[Ausuka]

I mean, that seems at least plausible. How would you describe your usual treatment of your partners when you're scum? (Sorry to ask so many questions)

[implosion]

Searching for a replacement for KawaiiKame. Deadline may be extended at my discretion of when a replacement is found.

[Klick]

I mean, that seems at least plausible. How would you describe your usual treatment of your partners when you're scum? (Sorry to ask so many questions)

Don't be, if it'll help you find me then please keep it up

My play around my partners is very context-dependent. I generally try to weigh cost-benefit and post in ways that will help my partners' position while also strengthening my own position (or at least at minimal cost to my own position); otherwise, I look for ways to make myself seem unlikely as a partner to them.

My only two recent scum games where I have any significant amount of content are White Flag and Greentexts. In White Flag, I figured from fairly early on that our team would struggle to survive without significant action. I defended TGP with the intent of keeping him alive as long as I could, while also making my defense of him hard enough that it would seem unlikely to come from a partner in the gamestate (which partially succeeded - I think I was surviving largely off the back of being the only defender of TGP and a few people deciding that was unlikely partner activity). I judged Datisi as a partner that could and would need to largely manage his own position, and the same applied when Gimli replaced him. My approach to helping that slot was largely to keep other players open in the PoE and hope they saved themselves. When Gimli was in trouble D3 and it was literally a 'we lose if Gimli dies' scenario, I defended him and was going to try to open Shirou up as an elimination option.

In Greentexts I replaced in on D2 and my team was clearly in a strong position in a fairly weak town. So I just townread them both and rolled the game while putting in minimal effort. I used my 'let's sheep the conftown' strategy in MyLo, but that was largely to secure myself as a thread townread in the event that Ceph or furtive got shot by Drew.

I have thoughts about how my interactions with Skygazer, gera and Kawaii contrast with how I would choose to play as scum in this game, but it's probably better to let you make a judgement of that before giving my own view

[Klick]

Oh also, this game is over:

viewtopic.php?t=90686&start=4775

I was scum. I didn't post once. I was super worried about screwing up the strong position my scumteam had gotten us in and so I just completely froze up and let Alisae take over. I make commentary in our scum discord but I didn't post.

I hate playing as scum ))

[Gimli]

Lmao that you just let alisae do all the dirty work

Gg btw, strong scum victory

[geraintm]

Sorry, away today and tomorrow visiting SiL, so can't post much. Bit as we are waiting for a replacement I don't feel too hounded

[Klick]

BTW

V/LA 2 days

Eastermeet. I'll still check in but not paying this much attention.

[Ausuka]

I defended TGP with the intent of keeping him alive as long as I could, while also making my defense of him hard enough that it would seem unlikely to come from a partner in the gamestate

Is there any reason this couldn't also apply to your defense of geraintm?

[Klick]

Geraintm hasn't been in danger. The times I've defended gera haven't actually correlated to any time that defending gera would produce a benefit for a Klick/gera scumteam. I had gera as flat null until like late D3.

[Gimli]

@mod: v/la until april 18th

[Ausuka]

I was using the excuse in my brain that i would wait until kawaii gets replaced but it looks like no one wants to do that so uh