In post 1122, Pink Ball wrote:About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.
I don’t think 'exuding towniness' on Day 1 is particularly a tenet of my town game. Ask Koba if they can remember a Day 1 where I was obvious town. The only experiences I can remember with them as town are in games where they repeatedly called me likely scum until they died.
In post 1131, Klick wrote:
On the other hand, 'flaccid' is a good description of most D1s from me. Particularly in Larges. Koba is probably using Hollow Knight as a recent reference, but that's an exception and not the norm.
I'll ping them and when they answer I'll talk about my own take on this too
In post 1122, Pink Ball wrote:About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.
I don’t think 'exuding towniness' on Day 1 is particularly a tenet of my town game. Ask Koba if they can remember a Day 1 where I was obvious town. The only experiences I can remember with them as town are in games where they repeatedly called me likely scum until they died.
In post 1131, Klick wrote:
On the other hand, 'flaccid' is a good description of most D1s from me. Particularly in Larges. Koba is probably using Hollow Knight as a recent reference, but that's an exception and not the norm.
I'll ping them and when they answer I'll talk about my own take on this too
They replied "L+ratio" which I don't know what means but I assume is a meme
(they're busy right now and haven't read the question so you'll have to wait)
In post 1142, Frozen Angel wrote:
you should just say what you think. It might get lost in thread for now if people don't wanna support it but its something town can trace back to in later days based on flips and info.
Oh I meant to respond to this too
Nah, that scumread gets to stay a secret for now. Let 'em sweat and wonder if it's them.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
...missing from all of your commentary on Dragon and Dunn is an actual thought process about motivation.
About Dunnstral, I have explained what I believed the town motivation behind his questions was, as part of that Firebringer case. I believe Dunnstral wanted to know if Firebringer was unhappy because he had missed or misunderstood how the amnesiac mechanic worked, and he could get a different role tomorrow. That would have been a town tell. And questioning DragonEater for his comment about people townreading him was also fair, as that is a scum concern.
As for Dragon, I may not have been explicit, but I suspect the motivation behind him being so eager to please is that he wants to avoid people scumreading him. But when it comes to newbie scum, motivation may not even be a factor. I was really awkward and obvious when I was new, not because I wanted to be, but because I did not know any better and could not help myself.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
So now we get some sort of explanation for why this is scum Dragon and not town Dragon but we've changed how we're describing him. Now he's not angry, he's nervous. We would have expected him to join in on the joke. Never mind the goal post shifting but [citation needed].
Can you provide me with examples of Dragon "joining in on the joke for a laugh" instead of finding it scummy?
Not moving the goal posts, Dragon had simply posted more. What does being nervous even look like? It can manifest in various ways, like aggression that feels out of place, or sarcasm (243 and 492), being indecisive (changing his opinion on Firebringer vs Dunnstral several times), and just not having the confidence to make his own pushes. I have not seen him do really anything on his own initiative. He has even admitted that his playstyle this game is different.
As for an example, easy.
Spoiler:
In post 38, IceDragon70 wrote:
So now you are alt-hunting? Pretty scummy if you ask me!
However, that slip about wrong PT clearly confirms you are masons with Klickwork.
UNVOTE: Furtive
But I am willing to bet I will vote him again in the next 24 hours.
Pedit: I don't need to wait 24 hours. Furtive caused Black to lose, that's reason enough to vote!
VOTE: Furtive
It was mentioned before, but DragonEater and IceDragon are the same person.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
More to the point this read is now extremely stale. A whole ton of stuff has happened since then and you're still on something DragonEater did on like the first post of the game. If you actually had a sincere scum read on him why have you not commented on the stuff he's posted and done since? Has it changed your read?
I have commented on it. And my read has indeed changed. I started out feeling there was something off about his play, but that did not become a real scum read until he joined me in voting Firebringer. That made me feel dirty.
In post 1029, Thestatusquo wrote:
Can you provide me previous examples of scum, especially new scum, doing what you're claiming Dragon is doing? You're making it sound like this is something scum do all the time and that has simply not been my experience.
Okay, when I read this I was not sure if you were trolling me. No, I don't have examples of this, and it would be a complete waste of my time to go looking. What would other newbies doing it even have to do with Dragon? What I'm trying to say is that new players can be incredibly awkward and unpredictable, but they grow out of it. We might be witnessing DragonEater's first scum game ever, and he had the singular misfortune of having it happen in Team Mafia and feeling completely out of his depth. His play is different here, and him being scum is the simplest explanation for that.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
You still seem caught up on things that happened 20 pages ago and are ignoring anything that has happened since except for discussion of those things.
You know, I thought you were against having more noise in the thread.
I have for example been passively following the thing between Titus and Black, but nothing seems to be coming out from it, although my earlier town read on Black has since faded. I see puffs of smoke, but no fire. It seems to be about meta, and what could I contribute to that that would be of any value? My experience with Titus is years old, and I have none whatsoever with Black. I don't think it is worth my time to get involved in that yet, I am perfectly content leaving that for later.
Though speaking of Titus, I don't think I've seen her mention DragonEater at all since the start of the game, and I would like to hear her take.
I have my suspicions of you too, not least because you have been defending what has become my top scum read for reasons I don't understand. But perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you are town, and want me to commit to stances for associative tells later, I get that. But since I know I am town, I don't share that motivation. If or when I die, no one is going to care to remember what my day one reads were. However, if I laser focus on one or two top suspects, people might remember that, and I might still have a positive influence after I'm dead.
But fine, if you really want to know, I can tell you where I am with my reads.
I have seen some posts from you that I liked and some I did not, foremost of them how you gave DragonEater a pass far too easily. I also wanted to like your theory post 517, but I can't help thinking if that was why you posted it? We're not playing a newbie game here. Also, while it was only minor, your post 524 caught my attention. If I were to ask that question as town, I might not even include SvS as an option, because I would know what I was. But you did, which means you were thinking about it.
I have a weak suspicion of Klick. I've played at least one game with him which I remember well, where he was scum. He gave out reads that were very light on reasons, including one town read on a partner, and it was that association tell that got his slot executed. The case he posted on Frozen Angel is also plausible coming from town, but I can't quite shake the feeling it might have been a good scum push.
Tied to the above, Frozen Angel is my strongest town read. Her thoughts align with mine to such a degree that I can't believe they would not be coming from the same place. Even if we're wrong about DragonEater, should she outlive me, remember I said this.
Firebringer is probable town. I was already leaning that way when I posted my rephrased questions to him, but to solidify the read I still wanted to hear his answers, and I accept them.
Dunnstral remains a town read, joined by Pink Ball and Kuribo. Lean town on Black. Remaining players are null. Titus stands out in this group for having posted a lot, but I don't know what to make of it.
my biggest problem with my scumreads is feysal and FA seem unaligned because they seem in lock step together against DE so i'm probably wrong somewhere
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
...missing from all of your commentary on Dragon and Dunn is an actual thought process about motivation.
About Dunnstral, I have explained what I believed the town motivation behind his questions was, as part of that Firebringer case. I believe Dunnstral wanted to know if Firebringer was unhappy because he had missed or misunderstood how the amnesiac mechanic worked, and he could get a different role tomorrow. That would have been a town tell. And questioning DragonEater for his comment about people townreading him was also fair, as that is a scum concern.
As for Dragon, I may not have been explicit, but I suspect the motivation behind him being so eager to please is that he wants to avoid people scumreading him. But when it comes to newbie scum, motivation may not even be a factor. I was really awkward and obvious when I was new, not because I wanted to be, but because I did not know any better and could not help myself.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
So now we get some sort of explanation for why this is scum Dragon and not town Dragon but we've changed how we're describing him. Now he's not angry, he's nervous. We would have expected him to join in on the joke. Never mind the goal post shifting but [citation needed].
Can you provide me with examples of Dragon "joining in on the joke for a laugh" instead of finding it scummy?
Not moving the goal posts, Dragon had simply posted more. What does being nervous even look like? It can manifest in various ways, like aggression that feels out of place, or sarcasm (243 and 492), being indecisive (changing his opinion on Firebringer vs Dunnstral several times), and just not having the confidence to make his own pushes. I have not seen him do really anything on his own initiative. He has even admitted that his playstyle this game is different.
As for an example, easy.
Spoiler:
In post 38, IceDragon70 wrote:
So now you are alt-hunting? Pretty scummy if you ask me!
However, that slip about wrong PT clearly confirms you are masons with Klickwork.
UNVOTE: Furtive
But I am willing to bet I will vote him again in the next 24 hours.
Pedit: I don't need to wait 24 hours. Furtive caused Black to lose, that's reason enough to vote!
VOTE: Furtive
It was mentioned before, but DragonEater and IceDragon are the same person.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
More to the point this read is now extremely stale. A whole ton of stuff has happened since then and you're still on something DragonEater did on like the first post of the game. If you actually had a sincere scum read on him why have you not commented on the stuff he's posted and done since? Has it changed your read?
I have commented on it. And my read has indeed changed. I started out feeling there was something off about his play, but that did not become a real scum read until he joined me in voting Firebringer. That made me feel dirty.
In post 1029, Thestatusquo wrote:
Can you provide me previous examples of scum, especially new scum, doing what you're claiming Dragon is doing? You're making it sound like this is something scum do all the time and that has simply not been my experience.
Okay, when I read this I was not sure if you were trolling me. No, I don't have examples of this, and it would be a complete waste of my time to go looking. What would other newbies doing it even have to do with Dragon? What I'm trying to say is that new players can be incredibly awkward and unpredictable, but they grow out of it. We might be witnessing DragonEater's first scum game ever, and he had the singular misfortune of having it happen in Team Mafia and feeling completely out of his depth. His play is different here, and him being scum is the simplest explanation for that.
In post 859, Thestatusquo wrote:
You still seem caught up on things that happened 20 pages ago and are ignoring anything that has happened since except for discussion of those things.
You know, I thought you were against having more noise in the thread.
I have for example been passively following the thing between Titus and Black, but nothing seems to be coming out from it, although my earlier town read on Black has since faded. I see puffs of smoke, but no fire. It seems to be about meta, and what could I contribute to that that would be of any value? My experience with Titus is years old, and I have none whatsoever with Black. I don't think it is worth my time to get involved in that yet, I am perfectly content leaving that for later.
Though speaking of Titus, I don't think I've seen her mention DragonEater at all since the start of the game, and I would like to hear her take.
I have my suspicions of you too, not least because you have been defending what has become my top scum read for reasons I don't understand. But perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you are town, and want me to commit to stances for associative tells later, I get that. But since I know I am town, I don't share that motivation. If or when I die, no one is going to care to remember what my day one reads were. However, if I laser focus on one or two top suspects, people might remember that, and I might still have a positive influence after I'm dead.
But fine, if you really want to know, I can tell you where I am with my reads.
I have seen some posts from you that I liked and some I did not, foremost of them how you gave DragonEater a pass far too easily. I also wanted to like your theory post 517, but I can't help thinking if that was why you posted it? We're not playing a newbie game here. Also, while it was only minor, your post 524 caught my attention. If I were to ask that question as town, I might not even include SvS as an option, because I would know what I was. But you did, which means you were thinking about it.
I have a weak suspicion of Klick. I've played at least one game with him which I remember well, where he was scum. He gave out reads that were very light on reasons, including one town read on a partner, and it was that association tell that got his slot executed. The case he posted on Frozen Angel is also plausible coming from town, but I can't quite shake the feeling it might have been a good scum push.
Tied to the above, Frozen Angel is my strongest town read. Her thoughts align with mine to such a degree that I can't believe they would not be coming from the same place. Even if we're wrong about DragonEater, should she outlive me, remember I said this.
Firebringer is probable town. I was already leaning that way when I posted my rephrased questions to him, but to solidify the read I still wanted to hear his answers, and I accept them.
Dunnstral remains a town read, joined by Pink Ball and Kuribo. Lean town on Black. Remaining players are null. Titus stands out in this group for having posted a lot, but I don't know what to make of it.
I don't have time for a full response right now because I'm mobile posting while working but i have read this and wanted to say i believe you believe what you're saying in this post even if i disagree with a lot of it.
In post 1141, Frozen Angel wrote:
Why do you scumread me @Save The Dragons over the people you actually engaged with/talked about who you offered scumread on to the point of advertising wagoning me like that?
i'll be honest, my vote on you was partially a reaction test to see what you'd do.
if you engaged with me +town as you've done that in a game under an alt
if you challenged me +scum as you've done that in a game as scum (Cosmos)
im still stewing on the result for certain but you pretty much did the first one
the biggest reason i sr you is because i tr klick and believed his case. the other thing is your posts seem calculated and a little performative.
it looks like it's trying to see if there's room for a STD wagon. i think i misread it at first as more discredity than it actually is (which i find to be a pretty strong scumtell) but it's got hints of that.
A lot of Drixx's engagement with me almost seems like toeing the line to vote me but without actually doing so it looks like he's holding back because there's no one else who's going to bite.
In 146 Fey says in the same breath that the massclaim would probably be good for the town but that it wouldn't work like they were hoping due to scum knowing what the intended scum roles would be. I don't think I even understand this. Even if scum weren't told which roles were intended for them, why would the massclaim be a good idea? How does this clarification Fey made with the mod change anything?
152 - beginning of the first Fey/FB interaction. FB seems to be picking up a little of what I was getting between Fey/Dunn. Or at least Alisae is (115). I don't have issues with Fey's read on Dunn here though
FB calls Fey's Dunn read "baffling" in 162. I like the pressure by FB here
Fey responds in 217 and essentially says they think Dunn is trying to solve by coming in asking questions. Fey also shades FB a little in this post. It reads as defensive to me but also Fey seems legitimately confused at FB's playstyle. I'm getting similar vibes from Fey here as I had in Hollow Knight regarding FB. I think FB just has his own way of doing things that could easily be read as scummy if you're not familiar with him
FB responds in 237 and essentially says in a very long-winded manner that Dunn's questions weren't trying to sort. I think I disagree here. I understand what FB is saying but I think there is this unspoken expectation that everyone should only ask certain questions or else they seem scummy. I'm feeling this in my arguments with Shea/Titus. We are all wired differently and therefore will approach the game different. Just because FB doesn't like Dunn's questions doesn't mean Dunn wasn't trying to solve in his own way. FB also says that one of Fey/Dunn is scum and I don't agree with that read
Fey responds in 254. I can see why I glazed over this originally. There's an argument of FB changing the meaning of words regarding the setup and even though I'm not seeing it I get the sense that Fey actually believes what they are saying here. I remember thinking this post was pretty defensive when I first read it, especially with the vote at the end, but this post pretty much squashes the idea of Fey/Dunn being scum together to me. No shot Fey chainsaw defends her buddy this hard
256 - Fey elaborates on the "aggressive" conversation from earlier. I think I missed this when reading through. I don't vibe with this explanation because now it seems like Fey is agreeing with me that Dunn entered aggressive when they originally said they didn't think he did. This reads as "ok yeah but it's a different type of aggressive." I don't know why they didn't just say that earlier?
Fey TRs Dunn and I in 261. Great reads and I agree
Fey says getting overwhelmed isn't AI in 300 and I agree. Titus being hard to pin down? Agree here as well. I posted this exact comment in my discord last night
368 doesn't have much noteworthy except maybe that Fey continues to defend her "Dragon's aggressive" stance from earlier, citing meta as a reason for thinking Dragon would be more relaxed. This isn't really a scumread (Fey says they "wonder why that is") but it does feel like they are sus of Dragon over it. I get it, but meh. Maybe I'm just over all the meta talk. Someone entering the game a different way could have absolutely nothing to do with their alignment and I think Fey realizes this here which is why they don't fully SR Dragon for it
Fey/Dragon in 395 - I agree with Fey's take on Titus. Fey doubles down on their suspicion over Dragon's "aggressive" entrance and says that Dragon's responses only made it worse. I'm just not following here, but I don't think this weak reasoning for SRing Dragon is necessarily scummy coming from Fey. It does feel like Fey believes what they are saying here
516 shows that Fey is trying to solve. They went back and reread FB's posts earlier in the game and reassessed their opinion. I also like Fey's thoughts on meta here. Also they touch on the massclaim reasoning that I was confused about at the beginning of this ISO. I'm just not getting it. Maybe someone can explain it to me. I tried to read this paragraph twice and I just don't understand how the setup can be broken by a massclaim
804 - great response to kuribo here IMO. I think where Fey's head is at regarding the revolving roles and clearing people. Also invoking FB here and saying they want a response from him gives me the impression that they're trying to solve. Fey also goes a little deeper into her Dragon SR here and yet again I'm not seeing it. I don't agree with their points at the bottom of this post and I don't think these things make Dragon scummy at all
In 838 Fey says their initial reason for sussing FB was based on nothing? This is strange. I felt like Fey really believed in what they said earlier in the game about FB's Dunn case being a bad push, but here they are implying the push wasn't suspicious at all. While I do agree that FB's push wasn't suspicious I just find it odd that Fey is walking this read back now. I had to read this a few times. I think I'm townreading the honesty here. I think scum would double down on the FB suspicion instead of retracting it. Fey also invokes Shea at the bottom of this post wanting a follow up from him re: TRing Dragon. I don't think it's some huge towntell to keep up with your questions and try to get responses from them (yes it's townie but scum can easily do this) but when Fey is doing it and the way they are doing it, it feels genuine and organic
I'm vibing with the way Fey engages with FA in 1027 even if I don't really share the opinion re: Klick/Dragon. I also like Fey's response to Shea at the bottom of this post. They vote for Dragon here
Tl;dr - Fey is town. Also this ISO didn't bleed into FB's very much like I thought it would
I guess continuing on my ISO, I like Fey's most recent post. Like I said it seems like they truly believe in their Dragon SR. I think it's a very weak case and I can't see how it would make Dragon their top SR (lack of other SRs maybe?) but it feels genuine
Also kinda sad to hear that your TR on me is gone, Fey. Can you elaborate what you mean by "smoke but no fire" and how that impacts your view on my alignment?
FA as the strongest TR? Yeah, our heads are in really different spaces here. But I think this read is influenced by FA agreeing with you and ya'll being on the same wavelength. As town I tend to TR people in this manner so I think this is town motivated from you
Feysal, I know it has been some time since you've played, but what would you describe as the difference between your approach to the game generally as town vs scum? What are you doing in your approach to this game that is fundamentally different to what you would be doing as scum? As you're someone who ultimately knows the actual answer to this question, why are you town?
FA's content all around feels soulless. She is demonstrating quite a bit of thought but I don't feel like she believes any of it further than her words express.
