TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[Fate]

Y’all need to stop name dropping me

You could try at least as much as me

[Fate]

I don't get why you're still on Hpe either

They're are better targets

Just
You wait

Just
You

Wait

[HighPrincessErinys]

I don't get why you're still on Hpe either

They're are better targets

Just
You wait

Just
You

Wait

You're still on me too, to be fair.

Because this one and all three of your choices are just people who haven't really been posting as much substantial content as others, which feels strange on Cerb but it's definitely just How They Are on Porkens and Fate.

Like, this one's opinion on trying to read Fate and Porkens is like trying to read not_mafia and Enchant: Really tedious and usually wrong.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Still pending an ISO analysis on peta of my own due to other things but this one thinks it's seeing where you're coming from, but it'll withhold an actual scumread for that ISO dive.

Okay yeah, this is definitely a bit bad. This one can concur that peta doesn't seem to be making as many actual points of substance as he's trying to look like he is. This one thinks it'd be willing to vote there but it has bigger wgeurts-shaped fish to fry so that's probably not happening anytime soon.

[Fate]

goddamnt

im tired of switching my vote

[petapan]

Peta {BoP about scummy, calls him flaccid , nothing to townread in his posts. Overall low substance and small scope given the team and the small size of the game.}

this is about par for the course for me for the record and the idea that i'd be less motivated as scum is cuckoo

for the record yesterday my allergies flared up and i couldn't go 2 minutes without hacking up a lung so i had little interest in this game (today i am feeling better)

but even had i read the game yesterday i'm not sure i'd have a ton to comment on, i found the pages between my last 2 posts to be shockingly sparse for actual meaningful content. the HPE wagon suddenly felt wrong to me, i didn't have a strong alternate target, so i was mainly waiting to see if something else caught my attention, really. i didn't like princess's vote back on fate and the justification for it but it's just one post, i'm probably going to do a quick bit of meta there today

[petapan]

Still pending an ISO analysis on peta of my own due to other things but this one thinks it's seeing where you're coming from, but it'll withhold an actual scumread for that ISO dive.

Okay yeah, this is definitely a bit bad. This one can concur that peta doesn't seem to be making as many actual points of substance as he's trying to look like he is. This one thinks it'd be willing to vote there but it has bigger wgeurts-shaped fish to fry so that's probably not happening anytime soon.

so this caught my eye and so far as i can see the entire justification you have for your case on wgeurts is still their case on you which looks to me to be profoundly mediocre reasoning for a scumread

[petapan]

Peta {BoP about scummy, calls him flaccid , nothing to townread in his posts. Overall low substance and small scope given the team and the small size of the game.}

this is about par for the course for me for the record and the idea that i'd be less motivated as scum is cuckoo

for the record yesterday my allergies flared up and i couldn't go 2 minutes without hacking up a lung so i had little interest in this game (today i am feeling better)

but even had i read the game yesterday i'm not sure i'd have a ton to comment on, i found the pages between my last 2 posts to be shockingly sparse for actual meaningful content. the HPE wagon suddenly felt wrong to me, i didn't have a strong alternate target, so i was mainly waiting to see if something else caught my attention, really. i didn't like princess's vote back on fate and the justification for it but it's just one post, i'm probably going to do a quick bit of meta there today

(also BoP is a concept for town play and my award is for scum play sooo....??)

[petapan]

HPE {proactive, lots of references when discussing reads, evidence behind thoughts, natural progression}

hmm this is a lot of vague buzzwords that don't mean anything

hpe's play to that point was almost certainly NOT proactive, it even admitted as much when being pushed

providing references...doesn't actually mean anything? why can't scum provide references when they discuss their reads? isn't that like the bare minimum of having thoughts? what are these "natural progressions"?

[wgeurts]

Much of the original issues I had with HPE in post 140 remain, if anything I find that the patterns of its behaviour have worsened.

Their initial defense to my accusations and thoughts came in post 157 with the following:

Spoiler:

Yeah, this one figured a game full of people its not played with wouldn't have a picture of it's playstyle. People have told this one before that taking a more passive backrow approach is par for the course for it, and it wants to agree? This one obviously isn't the best judge of it's own meta because it isn't always conscious of how it's actually, y'know, playing and acting, but still, this feels like a big clash of playstyle, albeit...*

But other than that:
It's obviously up to the individual's interpretation of how cool and good a post actually is in terms of solviness, but this one doesn't really think you could call everything
you've linked as providing nothing
of substance, especially when you go and try to call me asking someone why they're voting me as "empty questioning". And what's up with trying to recontextualize 124/135? Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads, and this one saying it doesn't have reads at the moment. And "weirdly obsessed with the double vote" feels like a grasping at straws, to be honest. *...this also feels like a really uncharitable analysis of me either way.

They first fall back on the tried and true "misunderstood" playstyle argument when my gripes with them were not to do with that. To summarise my issues I had then: their posts lacked content that could be held accountible, substance which you can be held to. Asking questions and probing doesn't mean anything if you don't indicate what the result of that is for your thoughts regarding the game. Particularly in the early stages of the game, this is comfortable as scum; you remain flexible and can manouveur much more freely. Note, the only read they really gave prior was Porkens for scum in 138, which they softened in that same post. The posts I used as example in 140 are as follows:

Spoiler:

This isn't too sure it uh... sees how that's scummy?

Questioning why Dunn (Peta's teammate) finds Jingle scummy, doesn't followup with own thoughts on Jingle.

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

Ehhh... This one doesn't really get that impression in the first place, but also scum probably weren't told about the power-up beforehand (there really isn't a need to when it gets announced to everyone at the start of the day) and even if they were they'd probably get the same description of it's effect.

It just seems like reading into things a bit too much?

Simply stating that the aformentioned seems like a reach. Nothing wrong with this inherently, but once again, no indication what they think of Jingle. I'm talking about patterns.

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

Presumably from people voting for who gets it? But that feels like a kinda moot point tbh, who really cares about some extra posts for power-up votes. My real concern is what RR brought up in that even on town it's gonna be a double-edged sword.

More soulless posting that appears to be delibirating but still no indication of any read or consequence to their probing questions.

etc.

And all their other posts prior to 140 were like that. They posted, commented, questioned, but showed no thought as to why they were doing so. What was their objective? What was their result? The answer, in my eyes, is that it doesn't feel like there was one to both. As Peta said in 126, it felt like they were "posting just to post". When called out on that they stat they simply don't "have any substantial reads or input right now" or in the earlygame, yet. CSF picked ip on it too, as stated in post 136, and HPE just shrugs it off saying its commenting of things such as "weird or alarming" were just "weird in a not very AI way.". What was the point in commenting in the first place then? What's the intent?
I misread an interaction they had with Jingle in the early game, so I'm not going to rehash that as it's NAI.

Anyhow.

Only after being called out do they summon the Porken's scum read in post 138 because he "self voted the power up", which they immediately water down thereafter in the same post. This is the first true substance we get from it. Porken's probably isn't scum with HPE, despite me not liking either slot, and HPE will continue to hedge on this read for some time to come. If HPE is scum, they're likely low-hanging fruit and my dislike of Porken's is then the result of his irrational behaviour.

After some further questioning by me they also give out that they most like Peta for town, and place a really poor vote on me in post 162. Their reasons being: my post 42 in which I criticise someone not explaining why they're not taking stances, and then a miscontrued observation of how I approeach the power-up talk claiming I'd reversed my stance on ??? i'm not even sure.

Then we get post 204. HPE walks back their scum-read on me somewhat referencing my post 169 wherein I explain exactly what I just explained above. They also then start to have even more misgivings about porkens... who blind votes me after HPE does. They say that they're worried Porken's may be sheeping them as to buddy, which is a bit moonlogic, but would also imply I would have to be town. There's dissonance here I cannot rhyme or reason. If HPE thinks I'm scum, then Porken's would be bussing me if HPE also thinks they're scum. This is not what they're saying. We're both simltaneously scummy through double-think. It's also noteworthy as this stance is taken right after Jingle voices misgivings regarding Porkens, and eventually also applies to Fate. Their reads don't make sense as a whole, and in this particular example could be evidence of positioning.

Spoiler:

This one kinda has some misgivings about the vibes of Porkens and to a lesser extent since they've only just now come around, Fate. Porkens instantly voting for you after me gives something of a buddying impression, though it's not... really sure what to make of their posts otherwise, because it feels like shitposting. This one's starting to like you a bit more after 169 clearing things up a bit but the initial accusations are still... Eek.

Then we have post 230. I am more towny, but simltaneously it has reason to believe I have real scum motivation? Porkens is also suspect, but that gets walked back too. They then vote Fate, who is voting them, to get more from them despite having just stated that they need more from Porkens and had scum-leanings. I cannot understand the town mindset here, they have reason to believe to incompatible scum-leans of which one hasn't provided much content, to then push a third-party that is neither? It makes sense from the perspective of hpe getting nervous under the pushback I'm giving, and not wanting to vote Porken's because I just called it out potentially positioning for that. It reads like posturing, an attempt to diffuse the situation. I can see the coherence as scum, I struggle as town.

Spoiler:

This one is suspect of Porkens independent of Jingle's post because he's just not done a whole lot all game other than suddenly buddy up and vote with me, but that could just be "hey, I believe you", but he's still not given many posts of substance either way. And you explaining your reasoning more in-depth for why you're voting me, i.e. 227, does give me town vibes, even if as this one said to CSF that it has reason to believe still you have a scum motive behind things. What are

your

thoughts on Porkens the other other no-substancer, since you're currently under the impression that Adorable is currently within their townrange? You haven't said much on Porkens since your readwall after all.

Beyond that, going to actually VOTE: Fate. This one wants some more out of you, please.

In post 261 it also reveals their second town read: Jingle. Quite uncontroversial. It then states the reason they scum-read my push on it but not peta/cfs is because of reasons that they previously said I clarified and felt more towny for, or a minor issue they fail to explain how it is scum motivated. Then in post 276 they state they may switch their vote back to me, as they don't believe they'll get a wagon going on Porken's or Fate which would have them "talking" and "no one seems altogethere interested at the moment" at wagoning them.

So let's set this straight. HPE scum reads me for ??? reasons, started walking it back and focused more on Porkens as Porkens started getting floated in discourse, then dismisses themselves finding me more towny after my clarification to their posts, and is in a position to vote either Porkens, Fate or me and go anywhere with all three slots, all three slots that are currently most likely contenders for a wagon. Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

It jumps back to me in 361 to vote alongside fate who they'd been posturing around as I'm their biggest scum read and I'm still not quite sure why its voting me. Peta starts getting some flack, and then they post 415 where although "these peta scumreads seem a little sudden" that it "probably needs to do some ISO digging". In the most charitiable interpetation of 439, which I think is the likley one, they then ask others for their opinion on peta. And now finally in post 478 have concluded that peta is worth voting.

To summarise.

HPE started the game with empty posting that appears useless but gave nothing of substance that could potentially be held against them later. Only after people called them out on this did they give a very weak scum read on porkens, which they have not pushed since despite keeping it in their realm of possible angles since. They vote me and after interaction state I'm looking more towny whilst angling harder on porkens who Jingle floated as a suspect just before, and then vote Fate for doing nothing despite still going on about Porkens who has also not done anything. This feels like scum anxiety to me as I called out the posturing just prior. Their reasons for disliking Porkens are absolute moonlogic incompatable with finding me scum at the same time, albeit without doublethink. Now peta is more suspect they've literally 180d their read after positioning with empty questions as to why others were doing so. Peta went from most to least town, and they haven't said why their thoughts changed.

Cherry on the top, its calling themselves low-hanging fruit by implying me going for them is going for low-hanging fruit, implying that my reasons in perception should seem valid whilst they haven't adressed. They care so much about why people are voting them, keeping themselves able to vote all of me, peta, porkens and fate (having said nothing about RR, CSF, Adorable and Cerb conveniently, the less universal town reads), have no coherency in their behaviour. At least not as town. As scum, it is simply posturing.

I don't know what more you want day 1. Their recent switch on Peta is so incredibly scummy. Their treatment of Porkens is bizarre. Their read on me makes no sense (to me). Their treatment of Fate is also bizarre. And the people that haven't ever been hot topic? Well it doesn't care about those. Call it convenient or call it perceived opportunism.

[petapan]

ok IM feeling thorough so I went back and read

NOWHBERE DOES IT SAAY ANYTHING IN THIS SETUP ABOUT IT BEING ONLY 2 SCUM SO

A teammate of mine said I should get the double vote power which is why I said in the thread I would be willing to take it.

Why did they recommend it?

I don't want to say it now when we got 2 scum roaming around.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i thought classic scumslips like this didn't happen anymroe


am I missing something

lol okay fate is town i'm okay with shelving any tinfoil i had there

yes can be faked etc etc but i think this is perfectly in line with his personality to miss

[Cat Scratch Fever]

wgeurts can you comment on cerb's meta especially if he's typically reticent with his reads a la 369? I would normally check but I have limited time at the moment

[wgeurts]

wgeurts can you comment on cerb's meta especially if he's typically reticent with his reads a la 369? I would normally check but I have limited time at the moment

I do not like his posting but he is correct in that he comes into action later in the game, it has been some years, but if he doesn't step up D2 it's a definite point to criticise. He's a bad day 1 vote, but you may note he's rather low down in my reads. Basically, null, maybe a bit scum leaning, but by far pending further action.

[Porkens]

“Tedious”? Dang.

[wgeurts]

“Tedious”? Dang.

Can you for once actually comment on the game, actually give thoughts on what's happening, instead of being obnoxious?

[wgeurts]

I will comment on my other reads later, I need a break for a bit

[petapan]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

[petapan]

jingle/princess's justification for their reads on each other both seem like horse hockey to me, but that type of dynamic is rare for scum/scum pairings altho if koba is pushing the reads it is possible. still would want to avoid getting over-ambitious on day 1 but, like, a lot of other people are just townies i think

[wgeurts]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

The wall is horribly written and I pain myself rereading and should have proof-read it

But yeah, for those who's eyes glazed over. What I don't like about HPE:

• They started the game nothing posting. All their posts appeared useful but gave no insight to what their reads could be, or anything that they later could be held accountable for.
  
• They only started giving reads under pressure, and have only ever given reads on people who are hot topic.
  
• Their reads do not make coherent sense. Their read on me is based of me misconstruing them: yet they acknowledge my clarifications made me look more town in the past, and have failed to point out where I'm misrepresenting them further and how it is scum motivated. They also claim that it looks like I'm pursuing them as low-hanging fruit, which would imply that they acknowledge their slot looks scummy and like an easy elimination option, which would mean my case makes sense... when their entire case against me is that it doesn't. They just don't like me because I'm pushing them imo.
  
• They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.
  
• They floated porkens as a low-hanging scum read when pushed for any substance, then doubled down with absolute moonlogic dissonant with their scum read on me, conveniently after Jingle floated it as an option. Instead they go after Fate for things Porkens has also done, and also keep me as an option to vote despite having called me "more towny" prior. They abandon Fate as soon as a wagon does finally form as per the earlier stated objective, it doesn't add up.
  
• Their reads are all watered down and easy to correct as per the status quo, people that aren't part of the discourse, don't matter to them.
  
• Their 180 on Peta is absolutely filthy, and in the posts leading up to it you can quite evidently see behaviour that can be interpreted as positioning to back off their prior number 1 town read. They constantly use others reads to form their own, with little to no evidence that anything they're coming up with is original and not opportunistically staged.

[SirCakez]

Votecount 1.6

wgeurts (2) - Porkens, HighPrincessErinys
Fate (2) - Adorable, Cat Scratch Fever
HighPrincessErinys (2) - wgeurts, Fate
Petapan (2) - Jingle, Radical Rat

Not voting (2) - Cerberus v666, petapan

(expired on 2023-04-26 11:46:00) remain until day end

Jingle is V/LA through Thursday April 20.

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to reach a majority.

[wgeurts]

I do have to say these wagons and pushes are going to be beautiful when people do flip, there's a lot to analyse

[petapan]

For that to be the case, it would mean Fate's hypothetical partner is someone with a teammate on your list of people who may know you, right?

Which, skimming over the team list could only be petapan.

I've had brewing suspicions on him for a while now, mostly because early game he seemed to be actively avoiding doing content, so I'll bite there. I don't necessarily think you're right, but peta being actually scummy to me and doubling as a sanity check on the very stylish hat sounds good.

VOTE: petapan

i don't think i was "actively avoiding doing content" at all, even if i was pretty reticent to state conclusions

also, you don't think jingle is necessarily right with the paranoia on fate being informed by his teammate about how to play around jingle, but are willing to vote me to test it???

(ftr i have no concrete memories of playing with bingle since coming out of retirement - we might have played in a datisi hosted secret hitler game but that isn't mafia and is a marathon game so is totally irrelevant, i have ~no useful meta on how he plays)

[Jingle]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

[wgeurts]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

Go through the summarised points I just gave you and tell me how that is garbage.

[wgeurts]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

The wall is horribly written and I pain myself rereading and should have proof-read it

But yeah, for those who's eyes glazed over. What I don't like about HPE:

• They started the game nothing posting. All their posts appeared useful but gave no insight to what their reads could be, or anything that they later could be held accountable for.
  
• They only started giving reads under pressure, and have only ever given reads on people who are hot topic.
  
• Their reads do not make coherent sense. Their read on me is based of me misconstruing them: yet they acknowledge my clarifications made me look more town in the past, and have failed to point out where I'm misrepresenting them further and how it is scum motivated. They also claim that it looks like I'm pursuing them as low-hanging fruit, which would imply that they acknowledge their slot looks scummy and like an easy elimination option, which would mean my case makes sense... when their entire case against me is that it doesn't. They just don't like me because I'm pushing them imo.
  
• They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.
  
• They floated porkens as a low-hanging scum read when pushed for any substance, then doubled down with absolute moonlogic dissonant with their scum read on me, conveniently after Jingle floated it as an option. Instead they go after Fate for things Porkens has also done, and also keep me as an option to vote despite having called me "more towny" prior. They abandon Fate as soon as a wagon does finally form as per the earlier stated objective, it doesn't add up.
  
• Their reads are all watered down and easy to correct as per the status quo, people that aren't part of the discourse, don't matter to them.
  
• Their 180 on Peta is absolutely filthy, and in the posts leading up to it you can quite evidently see behaviour that can be interpreted as positioning to back off their prior number 1 town read. They constantly use others reads to form their own, with little to no evidence that anything they're coming up with is original and not opportunistically staged.

Put your money where your mouth is