TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Shirou]

(

Doubleposting to fix the quote.

)

they don't want to vote you because you're so scary and intimidating or because if you two fight it was always going to take over the thread

Eh I'm not that intimidating I even have a cute anime girl as an avi!

I also avoided pushing them too much at the start for fear of it "taking over the thread" since the first few pages tho but oh well

Idk i just remembered their readslist had you in the middle and they have been kind of not so positive about you since then

What I quoted was their most recent mention of me aside form asking Italiano about his town read on me

Either way, when I said Koba did a 180º on his read on me, if they hadn't me as town they would have said so rather than "doing 180º are my thing", which does imply if not pretty much confirm my supposedly placement as town before this started

[Ausuka]

Also who says anime girls can't be intimidating smh

[Shirou]

Actually I'd like to ask about this

My perception was that you played more into the bestie thing than I did so looking back it's kind of strange that you would approve of this narrative like this

What did I do to pocket you that wasn't done in reverse?

Nothing but I don't think that's relevant from

my

PoV? Even if we did something similar I know my own alignment while I don't know yours and I can see for example how from yours/a third party's pov I could seem like I'm attempting to "pocket" you?

In my defense I'm often this friendly with at least one person in games so I would argue it's very NAI for me given how common it is

[Ausuka]

I mean, not especially. I joke around in games pretty often, and I wouldn't really ever view it as pocketing because doing that doesn't make me out to be town at all - I do it as scum too and I don't think anyone would expect otherwise. I would have thought you were similar, given your general behaviour and being light-hearted sometimes. Is pocketing people by joking with them or being nice a scum tactic which you employ often?

[Shirou]

Is pocketing people by joking with them or being nice a scum tactic which you employ often?

In my defense I'm often this friendly with at least one person in games

so I would argue it's very NAI for me

given how common it is

Hmm, well yeah a bit? I do it as either alignment like I said above, contrary to what some people may think I do like being nice to people when I can!

[Ausuka]

Yeah, obviously you do it as either alignment. You shouldn't townread me for it either, and you clearly understand that. But that's exactly why the idea that it should be looked at as a pocketing tactic is strange - if I'm scum, I will still do it not because I am scum but because I am Ausuka. What I'm trying to ask is, when you're scum, do you do this with the specific idea to pocket people?

[Shirou]

But that's exactly why the idea that it

should

be looked at as a pocketing tactic is strange

I considered it as a hypothetical scenario because everything is possible in mafia. I didn't say that it *should* be viewed this way at all. We simply always need to think about all sorts of probabilities.

about Ausuka

potentially

trying to pocket me by getting into my good side

------------- // ---------------

What I'm trying to ask is, when you're scum, do you do this with the specific idea to pocket people?

It's half because of my personality and the other half because it's advantageous for my wincon yeah

[Shirou]

Teyvat is quite relaxing

I've already forgotten half of my annoyance with Koba, feels good

FB said the best way for dealing with Koba is ignoring him. That seems like a good idea but at the same time if Koba is scum that's basically letting they get away with whatever they do so

/shrug

[Shirou]

him

they*

sorry

[Ausuka]

I think we just have different ideas of the word pocketing, it's probably fine

[xofelf]

Disclaimer: I've had about on average 3-4 hours of sleep the past 3 days, so I'm not confident this isn't incoherent. I'll try to clarify where I can if need be.

So I did go back through to see if I could find the things that were bugging me, and it seems they bother me somehow less in iso than they did when i was reading them in real time. Some it was just one post was a harsh brand of sarcasm followed up by a cheery nice post within like minutes of each other. But these were two that stuck out in particular ways:

Just a thought

Why is Italian VD voting Koba and not me?

Why are thinking I should I be voting you?

Just a thought

Why is Italian VD voting Koba and not me?

Inactive vs Active suspect dilemma? Welp, he can reply himself I guess

either way, just want to say Ali has said for the fifth time to vote Kowah because she's townleaning most active players

but as I stand here,

I realize,

that I'm gonna bully her again and say no.

Ahhh, don't answer for me.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

This game is too easy.

Oh dang, was it something I said?

You gotta elaborate on this, cause this is just silly.

This one does the normal tone to something harsher than I'm expecting in response, and it ends really dismissively.

iirc last night pb said that 375 was bad enough that it should be buried now

Explain. In your own words.

Hey Koba I feel like you ask a fair bit of me but when I try to get an idea of where your thoughts are at, I either get a dismissive response or none at all. It feels as if you’re putting on a show for certain slots that you’re relying on townreads from, while ignoring others.

Welcome to the Koba show.

It was intentional - I don't think going back and forth on it is going to be productive. I don't think if you are town there is anything I could ask that would make what you were saying more believable to me at this point. I'd rather just take it into account and see what you do going forward.

Fair. Same for you.

VOTE: italiano pb saw something and now I want to kill this bc I think it's like 99% flipping scum

Last time I checked Koba was playing this game not pink ball.



But since we're talking teammates, Drixx and Cerb told me DGB is useless and should be scumread for existing, and if she is removed from the game and is town there will be no material loss.

Then this one just has this tone of condescension throughout that I don't particularly love. Like, this is

Team

Mafia, why wouldn't you be relying on your team to back you?? That's the whole point???? And it's not like Koba isn't giving their own thoughts and reads and solely playing as a translator for their teams thoughts and reads. Koba is an acquired taste, and none of that flavour is missing in what they post so I don't get why the undertone to this post is so strong.

Also, the AtE didn't work for me. It did hit all the places that would make me feel guilty or bad for unfairly treating somebody and changing my stance because of those feelings. It read as intentionally trying to get those reactions with the word choices, as well as the tone.

While I think I misread some of the tones in things, I still don't feel great about you. I just feel like I'm missing *something* from you, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Maybe it's like the kind of dialogue between players where there's a genuine attempt to make sure both are on the same page in the same way. Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, but idk your iso seems to have thoughts and opinions that you want other people to have, not like "hey, i'm seeing this, anybody wanna check that and make sure we've got the same idea about this?". It's that mutual cooperation and information exchanging and co-analysis I'm missing I think.

[Kowahbunga]

i have a very strong sense of Doom right now like that I am wrong about everything

This paranoia feels forced to me.

[Shirou]

Ok before going to bed I want to state I've decided once more to not let my ego win and potentially turn the game unfun for everyone so early

I'm gonna judge Koba's slot strictly on what I think of their alignment rather than also internally justify pushing them as a form of punishment for being disrespectful to me and my teammates or so incredibly arrogant even though they're wrong

I was actually preparing myself to spam and yell in this game no matter the cost to get votes on them but it's not worth it

[Kowahbunga]

DKKoba is probably town from a mechanical point of view

what do you mean by that

I like this question because I had the same thought pop in my head of wanting more info on what it means. I like when I see someone ask the same question that I asked internally.

[Kowahbunga]

koba:

i have a very strong sense of Doom right now like that I am wrong about everything

also koba:

kowah is just my little pet townie thats gonna get carried and realize they kinda were being silly when they see my name as one of the nightkills

From impending doom to I'm so good I'll be night killed. Like I said, that is fake paranoia.

[Shirou]

Kowah broke what should be a string of posts but it's ok he's voting Koba.

All that above said, I really objectively dislike Koba's ISO though. They'll argue "it's how they play" but they've been all over the place often hopping on what seems to me some of the most popular suspects through the days. If they're as good of a scumhunter as they claim to be, "a cut above", I would expect some hot takes by this point because rather than witnessing Koba "carrying" anything, to me they're in fact often "sheeping" here.

I'm not sure Koba has pushed anyone that wasn't already being pushed by someone else before.

[Kowahbunga]

Kowah broke what should be a string of posts but it's ok he's voting Koba.

All that above said, I really objectively dislike Koba's ISO though. They'll argue "it's how they play" but they've been all over the place often hopping on what seems to me some of the most popular suspects through the days. If they're as good of a scumhunter as they claim to be, "a cut above", I would expect some hot takes by this point because rather than witnessing Koba "carrying" anything, to me they're in fact often "sheeping" here.

I'm not sure Koba has pushed anyone that wasn't already being pushed by someone else before.

I'm currently voting Arko, but mentioned in that post that I was still scum reading Koba. I just felt it was time to pressure Arko into providing content. I would switch back to Koba in a heart beat at this moment. I don't see it being very scum hunting of them to just talk about how great they are while doing nothing to prove it. Seems like they just want us to believe their self invented hype.

[Shirou]

Eh, Malakittens isn't around anyway, let's do this for now

VOTE: DkKoba

p-edit: up to you what to do/vote Kowah, I feel kinda lost in this game so I'm not rallying for votes yet

[Kowahbunga]

VOTE: koba

I feel better here.

[Shirou]

I don't see it being very scum hunting of them to just talk about how great they are while doing nothing to prove it. Seems like they just want us to believe their self invented hype.

For what it's worth I do think "hyping" themselves up is something that even town!Koba would do, but I don't feel they're trying to truly solve the game as much as hopping on a bunch of consensus wagons/reads and passing by as if it's meaningful contribution. I don't care if they think doing a bunch of hopping is "for science", I wanna see they get invested on something they came up with themselves and explain their thought process rather than just shade.

[Shirou]

The most important thing as a townie for most in my opinion is to be able to show you're trustworthy to other players and therefore avoiding being a miselimination. If every townie can show themselves to be aligned with the town, the scum are clear by default PoE (process of elimination). If someone is town,being intentionally "confusing" all the time because you're playing "3D chess" makes everyone's else job harder.

I think the town reads on Koba are kinda...horseshit, and no different to the MANY people wrongly townreading they in TM 2021 for "Koba always plays like this". If Koba's ISO hopping on consensus wagons/suspects and opportunistically flipping their read belonged to say, Italiano, would he be excused in the same way?

"My meta is doing quirky stuff lol" is the exact card scum!FL played in TM 2018 and TM 2020, and scum!Koba played in TM 2021. I've seen this shitty excuse being used three times in a row in my last TMs and I'm afraid it could be the case again. If someone isn't making themselves completely clear on purpose all the time or doing shady stuff, you pressure them into showing their hand, that's it. Period.

"My meta is doing scummy stuff as town lol" is a type of mentality that needs to die and I said it in TM 2021 as well.

[Shirou]

I don't want to AGAIN, for the FOURTH time need to explain that if someone is doing objectively scummy stuff and say "it's NAI", you pressure them anyway because "it's NAI" means they can be scum playing it in their favor and the people doing this type of stuff in my last TM games were scum 3 out of 3 times.

You pressure or kill people doing shady stuff, period. If their playstyle is being shady they perhaps they need to start not being shady rather than expecting others to divine when they are being shady as town or scum.

Goodnight lovely thread.

[DkKoba]

hey shirou, trying to project someone else's playstyle onto me won't work.

i sort by towniness. I thought other people surpassed you in that and went back and realized "huh ok this wasn't as towny as I thought" and moved on.


the crazy part was that the vote was labeled as a reaction test several times - and it got the intended reaction assuming the world where you are scum.


as for why no one will listen to your argument about me being scum(including your partners who are probably begging you to stop attempting this) except the 1 guy in the room who has 0 experience with me:

1) they actually know its NAI for me(and in fact more likely town tbh but thats a conversation we aren't ready to have) to be fluid and make 180s. Of course I take the opportunity to turn up the pressure on you when theres already support. A solo vote doesn't do anything.
2) you're actually misconstruing my intent in a way that is ignorant of the things I've said to make me look like I'm being "opportunistic".
3) this one isn't related to the above but the mark of good scumhunting isn't looking for "scummy" behavior - its actually finding townies and then yeeting the people you didn't find as town.

you keep repeating yourself in your posts in a way that I think is just meant to make your statements look more important and it just isn't a natural way I think townies approach the game when being honest about their play.

Is whatever the fuck italiano doing towny to you? Does it make him paired with me?

ignoring aspects like that^ and not being able to explain it are leading me to believe you are playing shallowly and refusing to utilize complex evidence to support your reads - which is nearly explicitly a towny trait, and lacking it is usually, but not always, scum indicative.

[DkKoba]

koba:

i have a very strong sense of Doom right now like that I am wrong about everything

also koba:

kowah is just my little pet townie thats gonna get carried and realize they kinda were being silly when they see my name as one of the nightkills

From impending doom to I'm so good I'll be night killed. Like I said, that is fake paranoia.

The fact you don't care about clarification on things like these is why I don't interact with you and made you a pet
You're a type of player who draws assumptions without seeking answers and stubbornly so. I don't like playing with people like you but luckily I tend to be nk early.
I don't think you're scummy, you're just obnoxious

[DeasVail]

I like the Shirou and Kowah votes on Koba and I feel a lot better about both of them than I did previously. I would say that I'm sympathetic to the Koba wagon and particularly resonate with skepticism of the Koba townreads and Shiro's bothered-ness by this, and Koba is probably the slot I've agonised over the most, but I don't feel personally able to join in on that, at least not right now.

Ydrasse, I'd be particularly interested to know what direction you're wanting to move in at the moment, particularly why the hestitation on Italiano and why the unvote on Arko when you did, as the post before you unvoted was not actually very reassuring to me.