TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[Adorable]

At the start of day 2 I had RR and Peta in poe. I voted Peta because I didn't like his end of day 1 play. I'm still suspicious of Fate and their claim looked fake. GIF has been telling me Fate is town for claiming last and for the conflicting result which was a bold play that he saw it unlikely for scum to get in a 1 vs 1.

Whenever I am scum, me and my scum buddies claim last in a mass claim and this is why Fate claiming last I don't see it towny. That conflicting result from Fate it could be scum who messed up on their claim. I'm still suspicious of Fate and only reason why I'm not looking too hard on Fate is because of GIF's town read on Fate and GIF had a feeling Porkens was town and his read turned out to be right.

[Cerberus v666]

RR D1 ISO (I should probably note that I am only capturing posts that I view as significant - it is possible that there is meat in fluff somewhere that I haven't included in this post)

54 Vote Jingle for rephrasing their mech question/accuses the rephrase of being a shade cast
65 wgeurts performative in posting, NAI
79 Doens't liek voting Jingle, doesn't know where to go
96 Votes CSF, accuses of pocketing
114 Klick TR Adorable, Porkens, Jingle, RR TR Jingle Null Porkens Adorable
132 Explains CSF is defending wgeurts too strongly, implies they think wgeurts is town/CSF scum there
164 asks wgeurts for reads wall details
210 Asked because wgeurts having comprehensive reads on every slot feels forced, notes all reads except CSF are leans
223 HPE play is town-meta
305 Cerb is not passing vibe check, no details/ability toi give details
345 Fate town, genuine and self-interested, would be 3p if it was an option
368 Fate is emotional and reactive, and stream of consciousness, and that makes them genuine
370 Deliberated posts are easier to fake, adn it's hard to fake fluid and spontaneous stuff, but deliberate does not equal fake or scummy, comfy with jingle town
399 Response to meta knowledge of a players style that must have come from someone who is teammates with someone who knows them, was also suspicous of peta for avoiding doing content
405 Still thinks peta's scum, meta situation is not as strong
573 townlean on HPE personally, doens't care to appear about how it's posts appear, but this is not a meta read
612 feels peta is waffling on HPE
632 Questions HPE on their lack of reads
646 Tiered reads Jingle/Wgeurts; Adorable/Fate; HPE/////Porkens; Cerb/Peta; CSF, okay with anyone after the ////, except maybe porkens because SR is the push origin
649 CSF SR still comes from the wgeurts defense, only "clearly scummy" thing they've seen, other just aren't doing "town" things
657 CSF defense does not match the way RR perceived the wgeurts interaction
719 Votes Cerb, E-1
763 Post cerb claim, unvotes cerb and is going to go to porkens most likely
770 Votes Porkens, teammates disagree on CSF read which was only reservation(perhaps prior reads were lower than the rating I gave them? below town may be scum, ratrher than null)
819 Cerb verifiable claim(reading as null), wgeurts off the table, CSF and peta scum(team opposes)
829 wgeurts scum due to overanalysis early game, but logic was reasonable and meta upheld, HPE "catch" looked genuine
875 Questions fate about difference between settling for HPE and policy voting Porkens
903 fully in favor of porkens lim

This feels kind of like a cop-out, honestly, but I don't see any scummy behaviors from RR's ISO. At all. I see consistent questioning of many game relevant details. I see progression on slot reads based on their posting, and those progressions are reasonable. I see multiple scum-reads, and a very town reluctance to pursue the push on the weaker SR because the stronger one is the source of the other support for that wagon. The closest thing to scummy, overall, is the overall characterization of most of D1's actions as simply not being town enough - but honestly, that's basically the sort of waffling/lack of real commitment to reads that I get SR for on D1 constantly, and I can see it being a town mindset and read on the game.

Doing towny things, responding in towny ways, not doing scummy things, solidly town.

RR: I really should have asked this yesterday, but for clarification - does "fluid and spontaneous" equal town to you? You said the opposite doesn't equal scum, but didn't really clarify fully. This is obviously a bit late in the day, but what effect did CSF flipping town have on your reads? That was your only confident SR(alongside maybe Peta, it's kind of unclear whether Peta has sunk down to the level of CSF in your end of D1 posting), even though your team disagreed.

[Radical Rat]

I'd say ISO either peta or HPE next, though if you're planning on doing the whole list eventually it's not super important what the order is.

Now then, personally I find Adorable's claim to gel pretty well with wanting a double vote specifically, especially given it was a teammate's suggestion. While a hypothetical scum!loved would have similar motivation, I don't think it'd be worth making a show of it when you already kinda have the guaranteed safety net of a partner.

But of course that wasn't known at the time you would have submitted your action, which leads to my follow-up though Jingle beat me to the punch somewhat.

I was also going to ask why you'd opt for using a relatively low-power investigative over the BP when you were the only properly claimed PR going into the night. And your answer to that was interesting, and not what I expected. Why did you think you'd be on the chopping block today? Why were you so confident scum wouldn't shoot someone claiming to have both investigative and protective power, with an elimination attempt that already fell through once?

[Radical Rat]

Sorry for not quoting, I'm on mobile and quote surgery's a pain, still waiting on them to fix the button pop up thing, but anyway.

CSF would have been where I turned my gaze today if she hadn't died. I was entertaining a CSF/peta scumteam going into the night, but obviously that isn't possible anymore. I was at somewhat of a loss at daystart, so defaulted to a PoE within the Porkens wagon, peta pinged me really hard with the Toad thing, though I've somewhat backed down on that after explanations.

And now I'm mostly focused on figuring out what happened between my action and Fate's. And all signs are pointing to you here

[Jingle]

Whenever I am scum, me and my scum buddies claim last in a mass claim and this is why Fate claiming last I don't see it towny. That conflicting result from Fate it could be scum who messed up on their claim. I'm still suspicious of Fate and only reason why I'm not looking too hard on Fate is because of GIF's town read on Fate and GIF had a feeling Porkens was town and his read turned out to be right.

To explain GiF's point, or what I think is GiF's point: scumFate had the ability to claim whatever. He was V/LA, which means he and his buddy had a chance to workshop the claim without undue suspicion. He had every option to not come out with a claim that put him in a mechanical focus, even if said focus wasn't a 1v1. He had every option to not come out with a claim that would give him continuous pressure to perform. He didn't do either of those things. He claimed something that would arguably be difficult to make up in a way that drew a ton of attention when he simply didn't have to.

[Jingle]

do i have to carry this whole goddamn town

Sorry, that backpack isn't full of the whole goddamn town. I just put some rocks in there to make you feel better.

[Cerberus v666]

I'd say ISO either peta or HPE next, though if you're planning on doing the whole list eventually it's not super important what the order is.

Now then, personally I find Adorable's claim to gel pretty well with wanting a double vote specifically, especially given it was a teammate's suggestion. While a hypothetical scum!loved would have similar motivation, I don't think it'd be worth making a show of it when you already kinda have the guaranteed safety net of a partner.

But of course that wasn't known at the time you would have submitted your action, which leads to my follow-up though Jingle beat me to the punch somewhat.

I was also going to ask why you'd opt for using a relatively low-power investigative over the BP when you were the only properly claimed PR going into the night. And your answer to that was interesting, and not what I expected. Why did you think you'd be on the chopping block today? Why were you so confident scum wouldn't shoot someone claiming to have both investigative and protective power, with an elimination attempt that already fell through once?

Got it, will do peta next, then HPE. And yes, I do plan on doing everyone, it just...takes time(which I have, at least during the day, for this week).

I expected to be on the chopping block today because the drivers of my previous wagon variously spoke ominously about my claim as either something that made me MORE likely to be scum, or something that bought me a day, without much in the way of vocal town reads coming from the game state at that point. Absence of strong defenders+persistent attackers=likely to be a contender for being lim'd today. That's perfectly fine generally - being scumread by at least half the game for most of the game is essentially a goal of mine, and so far I think I've only ever been shot by scum once in any game - so I suppose the confidence just comes from the fact that, even when I've claimed things very much worth being shot at, I simply haven't been historically because my posting generally reads as scummy to *many* people. I also don't believe I gave strong enough impressions of scum or town reads on anyone for any scum team to be particularly afraid of me investigating them in particular -which is the only reason why I'd expect there to be any chance of scum going after me.

Got it with regards to the CSF situation - does CSF town preclude peta scum then, to you? I need to review the claimed sequence of actions with regards to you and fate, that's part of the mech stuff I'll be getting to later, but I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

[Radical Rat]

Got it with regards to the CSF situation - does CSF town preclude peta scum then, to you?

It does not. I didn't think they were exclusively scum together, it was just a potential solve in my head. At this moment, I'm not really sure where I'm at with peta. He sounds plausibly Town, but that's really about all I can say in his favor.

Also realizing I forgot to answer the question about fluidity equaling Town, and I'd say not necessarily, just as rigidity doesn't necessarily equal scum. Both make me lean in those directions, but it's not a hard rule and very dependent on the individual and the situation.

[Radical Rat]

I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

Do you have a game you can point to where Fate has done something like that? Because I'm not really willing to entertain the idea of someone being Town and deliberately lying about mod interactions otherwise.

And I do think that there's a noteworthy difference between a negative result and no result. You wouldn't expect a roleblocked Cop to get an innocent result, and even for things like Tracker/Watcher, "Your target did not visit/was not visited by anyone" implies a success of the action. And at the very least I would expect a mod to say if a negative result would appear the same as a failed action, even though in that case they wouldn't say which happened.

[HighPrincessErinys]

My question is what would Fate get from lying about that, especially when he isn't really pushing the letter on "Well my action went through so you're a scum liar! vote vote vote vote", like at all.

[Jingle]

To clarify, are you asking why scumFate would want to lie if he had that role, why town Fate would lie about the mech disagreement, or why Fate might not have understood the mech disagreement before claiming? Because those are all very different questions.

[Cerberus v666]

I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

Do you have a game you can point to where Fate has done something like that? Because I'm not really willing to entertain the idea of someone being Town and deliberately lying about mod interactions otherwise.

And I do think that there's a noteworthy difference between a negative result and no result. You wouldn't expect a roleblocked Cop to get an innocent result, and even for things like Tracker/Watcher, "Your target did not visit/was not visited by anyone" implies a success of the action. And at the very least I would expect a mod to say if a negative result would appear the same as a failed action, even though in that case they wouldn't say which happened.

Pretty sure Fate suggested that fake claiming as town was on the table for them in this very game. That is a mod interaction. If I could point to a game, any details have been lost to me not playing for the last four years, unfortunately. And yep, understandable for you to not want to entertain town lying as likely, but it happens, especially with players with particularly forceful personalities. Yeah, I would expect a difference in results between a blocked investigative and a negative one. Which is why I need to review the whole situation. The exact verbiage used, as much as Fate can paraphrase it, is important.

[Jingle]

But it said that I

didn't detect

any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something

Phrasing here very much implies that regardless of Fate's understanding it was a "No Visit" and not a "No Result".

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I've lied as Town myself before, I get that much.

But this is... well beyond the scope of what I'd expect in that case.

[HighPrincessErinys]

To clarify, are you asking why scumFate would want to lie if he had that role, why town Fate would lie about the mech disagreement, or why Fate might not have understood the mech disagreement before claiming? Because those are all very different questions.

The first two at the same time, really.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler:

I'm Luigi, Ghost Hunter

I can detect if paranormal activity happens around a target. None happened around Cerberus last night

Therefore RR is at the very least not Ghost.


WHICH IM GUESSING means the scumteam is King Boo and Bowser. Would be very surprised if not the case, so my role is either a red herring useless thing or confirms non ghosts.


So yeah

Do your dirty thing Jingle. I expect great things, it's not for everyone I pass up an opportunity to fake claim as town

When you say "nothing happened" does that mean you received an affirmative result that there was no activity?

I was confirmed my action resolved and that I did not detect any paranormal activity

Then something's gone wrong somewhere, or you're lying

Me targeting Cerb means no one should have resolved any other actions on him

Well I don't think I can quote mod communication so I'm paraphrasing

It didn't say explicitly my action resolved or went through

But it said that I didn't detect any paranormal activity

Which is different than the 'no result's I'd expect if I was RBd or something


Does your role stop bodyguards and town actions and everything also?

Watcher usually resolves last so it can y'know watch things

So maybe you resolve right before me to stop everything above the chain

It says all actions targeting the player, so I assume that includes Town, yes.

I also believe that a proper negative result should be distinct from a no result.

But that's something you'll have to ask Cakez about

K I'll pm him, but RR I don't know what shenanigans are around but don't 1v1 me or anything drastic while I'm vla ok

Like I don't think as scum you'd out yourself in this way to 1v1 me, and since I got to go last as scum my fakeclaim would be solid LIKE CERBERUS HERE WHO CLAIMED AFTER ADORABLE

I'm not 1v1ing anything yet

If anything my instinct here is actually to look at Cerb...

Mod confirmed my action went through

VOTE: Cerberus I'll leave this here

Here's the full interaction from Fate claiming the result to claiming to have confirmed with the mod.

The first post is interpreting the result as a soft inno on me, which means Fate did see where I claimed to have targeted you, and chose to claim results anyway.
The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.
Me telling them to ask directly about whether they'd receive the same message if blocked was an opportunity for Fate to back down from the conflict, and they did the opposite.

Unless Fate has a history of just pulling this kind of thing out of their ass, I'm not seeing this as a possible lying Town situation. Either Fate is telling the truth, which is how it looks to me, or Fate's lying as scum.

[Fate]

At the start of day 2 I had RR and Peta in poe. I voted Peta because I didn't like his end of day 1 play. I'm still suspicious of Fate and their claim looked fake. GIF has been telling me Fate is town for claiming last and for the conflicting result which was a bold play that he saw it unlikely for scum to get in a 1 vs 1.

Whenever I am scum, me and my scum buddies claim last in a mass claim and this is why Fate claiming last I don't see it towny. That conflicting result from Fate it could be scum who messed up on their claim. I'm still suspicious of Fate and only reason why I'm not looking too hard on Fate is because of GIF's town read on Fate and GIF had a feeling Porkens was town and his read turned out to be right.

I mean Im trying not to be judgmental...really how new are you to this game?

As scum you always claim last? That's not how massclaim works, its determined by level of towniness and various other factors

like

yeah maybe Adorable is town but shes a liability

[Jingle]

The questioning around resolution order or if I only block scum actions is strange, but seems to come from a place of genuinely figuring out why they have results.

Rolestopper wasn't really a thing when I joined, let alone when Fate played regularly. He's older than NAR. Dunno if that context changes anything for you (it makes things more likely to be genuine for me) but it does exist.

[Fate]

do i have to carry this whole goddamn town

Sorry, that backpack isn't full of the whole goddamn town. I just put some rocks in there to make you feel better.

DAMNT JINGLE

[Fate]

Unless Fate has a history of just pulling this kind of thing out of their ass,

>__>

<__________<

[Fate]

but I doubt Fate has actually asked the right questions about how their ability works if the claim is true, and I also have severe doubts that the mod would confirm whether or not an ability which has returned a "failure to detect" type result was stopped by something. Fate, even as town, is a liar who is not above doing so to get the results he's pushing for. *shrug*

sucks to be caught scum huh


Maybe I'm old school but mods have always made it clear what an interference result is vs. a clear negative

to do otherwise is bastard modding and plain cruel.


Especially when it comes to watchers/trackers, where "they WENT nowhere/no one visited" is VASTLY different than 'no result', the only roles I can think of (its been a while) that would get a no result and the mod would go 'shrug' to are Cop. Aka is a Cop investigates an ascetic or is roleblocked they get no result either way, and most mods I know wouldn't confirm one way or the other what the difference would be.

but watchers? FUHGETABOUTIT

[Fate]

cop type roles*

Not the only ones I can think of, I'm not trying to think because we got scum caught who hasn't even commented on the Luigi/Mario or done anything a town mindset would do in this situation so instead of letting them flail with ISOs lets just letem go right to da choppah

[Fate]

Okay the Fate interaction with the Porkens wagon does not strike me as Scum white-knighting at all

I hung up that mantle

otherwise I'd be protecting Adorable from the patriarchy or some crap like that

THOSE SHIPS HAVE SAILED

[Jingle]

In normal games cops have distinct no result and negative result PMs. It is theoretically possible for no result/neutral result pms to overlap, but such is incredibly rare and a major design concern.

[Fate]

VOTE: cerb

oh look who voted cerb and then died

ISO complete, gg no re