Mini Normal 2299 | Postgame [Village win]

[Alianna]

Pagetop.

[Hu Tao]

@Kitty - how exactly does your role work? Enchant was executed D2 and you checked Delta N2, so if it's just them and a traitor, they technically have no one to talk to in the PT. I realize 3 scum + traitor is technically possible, just interested in this scenario. Would you get a positive or negative result on groupscum if they're the last one left, assuming they can't communicate in another way?

I get a guilty if they're not alone in a PT. So sole scum would get an inno even if traitor. So innos are pretty soft. I have a hunch it's 3 scum and tater however.

Wait I just saw this. If it's confirmed there is a traitor then delta could be scum just solo scum that would get an inno result from you?

[biancospino]

Votecount

VC 3-VI

Hu Tao (2):

bristep123 (758), redFF (791)

Alianna (1):

Doctor Drew (678)

Deltabreedy (1):

Hu Tao (702)

Not Voting (5):

Emperor flippyNips, KittyTacky, Deltabreedy (741), Theta Alpine (742), Alianna (751)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 for an execution.

Modnotes:

• The deadline is due in (expired on 2023-05-11 00:00:00).

[Hu Tao]

I can see 3 + traitor, but wouldn't Kitty's role technically be stronger in that setup than in 2 + traitor?

Wouldn't 4 scum be way too strong with the amount of people we have in the game? If it's confirmed there is a traitor then it should be 2 + traitor

[Hu Tao]

I don't trust Red's claim.

Here's why:

Knowing what we know now, #75 reads more like Scum!RedFF pushing away from traitor discussion. At the time justifiably so, so I think it went under the radar a bit - but in retrospect and aligning with the rest of their play it kind of makes sense.

Votes on Enchant and Theta in #84 and #117 have minimal justification but provide a degree of 'activity' without actually including any genuine scumhunting. This is then justified when FL challenges it in #154 where from there it does turn defensive. This gets called out but again their lack of activity after this means that they go pretty un-noticed.

In #222 there is another odd interaction with FL, wherein the prior interaction had shown FL to be doing some digging around Red's defensive posturing, but I think Red feigns ignorance in response to Flavour's admittedly quite coded posting. It reads to me as more of a vibe check - 'Who are you leaning scum on?' here =

Do you think I am scum?

Then there is effectively a 4 day period of inactivity. A few prod dodges that don't advance the game whilst ill - I don't count being ill as AI, of course - but returning to the game saying 'I got really sick over the weekend' when the inactivity was from Tues 23rd (#222) to Thurs 25th (#334 doesn't check out at all. Again, I feel this went relatively un-noticed. Lurking into the background has worked for Red and it's only really after the opportunistic vote on me and then the 3rd prod that I woke up and saw it.

#384 continues this trend of non-justified wagonpushing. At this point they're on Theta's wagon - and taking the assumption that Theta is town, Red would be keen on pushing this in bad faith, knowing who scum are. Being fine with all three wagons without actually having any reasoning behind them, not even spoken about vibes is inherently scummy to me - it might just be a playstyle thing but it also fits in with the rest of the gameplay so far.

Voting Mewtaph (Confirmed town by way of death) to E-1 without justification in #416 (coming after Mewtaph has called out RedFF for lurking in #3600 feels like Lurk!Scum looking for an easy way to A) Push a mislim and B) Push someone who suspects them out. By being so distant and in the background - from memory no-body connected this dot D2.

The justification for the Mew wagon from Red comes in D2, but again with nothing of substance to back it up. #478 reads as an attempt to move past it and move past any kind of VCA - and to be honest for me it worked. I didn't even clock thinking about it until now. By being aware of who scum is - Red can play along quite easily with FL's claim - which of course by way of death we know to be true. #479 curries favour with FL who Scum!Red would know to be powerful town and justifies the actions subsequently.

The big issue I have with this is the JK claim.

None of Red's actions feel like they have the goal of advancing the gamestate, or even finding scum. I don't read any willingness to find and lim scum from any of their posts - there's barely-existent questioning, a sense of complete apathy and to be honest if it wasn't for the claim, on a re-read I would have them absolutely locked as scum. Naked votes, opportunistic chances to put people at E-1 being taken - I just don't read Red's ISO or the associatives with Enchant and see anything other than scum.

The existance of the JK-enabler role is the literal only thing that slices up the argument and I'm having a real hard time getting past it.

Someone tell me I'm being an idiot here, but I'm really struggling with this one.

--

I also take issue with Alianna and Hu Tao for some of the same reasons, but I want players to audit my thought process above first.

Ninja'd by 4+ posts - will respond in new post.

I think I don't see the scum motivation for 1. Being jk with Enchant's role. Or 2. Fake claiming JK with a real JK just able to cc them. So I think red should be off the table for now

[Alianna]

I can see 3 + traitor, but wouldn't Kitty's role technically be stronger in that setup than in 2 + traitor?

Wouldn't 4 scum be way too strong with the amount of people we have in the game? If it's confirmed there is a traitor then it should be 2 + traitor

I'm not actually sure what the meta is around traitors. 3 + traitor doesn't sound unreasonable to me, though, given that town seems to have quite a bit of power.
Maybe traffic analyst isn't as strong as I thought it was?

[Hu Tao]

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

[Hu Tao]

VOTE: Emperor

I think I'll vote this for now

[Alianna]

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

They're functionally vanilla now, though, so not claiming really just wastes time if they get wagoned.

[Alianna]

I want to see how Emperor responds to my question and then I might consider it.

[Hu Tao]

Think Alianna is town. And I don't want delta. I also think bristep vote on me to automatically assume scum was bussing is weird. So I wouldn't mind voting them as well

[Hu Tao]

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

They're functionally vanilla now, though, so not claiming really just wastes time if they get wagoned.

Yeah but that gives scum a free night kill. Instead of having to potentially kill a traitor

[Hu Tao]

Personally I don't like claiming pr until I HAVE to. But I guess that could just be me

[Alianna]

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

They're functionally vanilla now, though, so not claiming really just wastes time if they get wagoned.

Yeah but that gives scum a free night kill. Instead of having to potentially kill a traitor

We have a strong reason to suspect the traitor is bulletproof. Let me find the post.

[Alianna]

Can someone clarify where the assumption of a traitor has come from?

even before someone revealed that it was confirmed

enchant flipped with disloyal unstoppable and no active non-factional abilities
there is exactly one situation where this makes sense to have
if you will be targeting someone with your factional kill who is the same alignment as you and who has protection

in normals there is only one setup satisfying this without an assumption of purposely targeting a teammate you are aware of
and that is to have a bulletproof traitor

[Theta Alpine]

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

jailkeeper in this situation of a flipped scum jailkeeper enabler effectively becomes a named townie whose existence is known

and the best play for such is to claim

VOTE: hutao i dont like his reaction to my claim today

Why? You could have waited until you were going to be voted out and then claim

They're functionally vanilla now, though, so not claiming really just wastes time if they get wagoned.

Yeah but that gives scum a free night kill. Instead of having to potentially kill a traitor

it is also a kill that is not on a power role
plus if we have a traitor then i am 99% sure they are bulletproof due to the reason i saw that there was a traitor in the first place
enchant was disloyal unstoppable

[Theta Alpine]

Personally I don't like claiming pr until I HAVE to. But I guess that could just be me

they are not a power role anymore
an enabler for them died
so now they are a named townie

[Alianna]

Basically, all groupscum are within bristep, Dr. Drew, Hu Tao, Emperor, and maybe Delta.

[Theta Alpine]

delta only if they are the only groupscum left

[Theta Alpine]

alianna is also in this group

alright let me think

[Theta Alpine]

i have been trying to decide if we just
mass claim here

[Alianna]

alianna is also in this group

alright let me think

Read my sig. Repeat "I townread Alianna" over and over again until you rid yourself of that idea.

[Alianna]

i have been trying to decide if we just
mass claim here

The thought has crossed my mind too.

[Hu Tao]

Funny how I was a top Town read yesterday and now I am scum read by someone for voting scum

[Theta Alpine]

scum having unstoppable suggests town has a protective role or a roleblocker
there was jailkeeper though which got disabled when enchant died so
that might already be all solved

flavor leaf was a tracker finder and finder finder
though i do not know if either of those would be on scum or town