Mini Normal 2298 - Game Over!

[Elpis]

uhh I looked back, went "this looks bad" and yeah. you suggested I look into Gimli, yeah.
anyways, change of plans, prof just sent out the review for finals and it's kinda a lot so I'm just gonna focus on finishing this semester for the next week, might show up this weekend, but Tues/Wed of next week I'm going all in and solving this game.

@TOWN - if you are town, PLEASE do not vote anyone in the next 7 days

@Whoever cares, I'm going V/LA for the next week - I need to focus on finals (I literally failed an entire semester because of mafia before and that got me an extra year... I'm supposed to graduate in 2 weeks!!! finals timeeee )
(I promise I'm delivering on content/walls of reads when I'm back! I have no doubts there)

Congrats! That's extremely rad I hope the finals go well!

[Elpis]

I'm unsure yet how townie Norwee was perceived (what I gather is that he wasn't as townie as some alive?) but I do not think that Elpis would choose to kill him. If not for it being WIFOM for the love of WIFOM, I do not think that Elpis' posts reflect well onto that world. 1869 isn't something that you write if you have at that point the intents to kill the person you're suspecting, and sharing suspicions to. It feels genuine, as does their posting today.

While it may be an act of convenience to say "I don't really know who to vote, it could be this pair, or that pair", paraphrased from posts like 1902 and 1903, it feels like real confusion.

i would have put money on norwe as today's most likely elimination

I 100% would've pushed Norwe as my elim choice today, had they not been killed. They were my biggest scumread yesterday.

[Elpis]

Assuming Cephrir is not a mafia and Elpis is, it means that Elpis decided to slot their teammates together at the lower rungs, but just out of reach.

What other teammate are you referring to? We only know NM was scum.

I think they're pointing out that everyone else currently alive (aside from cephy) was middle-low on that list

[Elpis]

From what I have been able to read in the last few pages I have some suspicions of Merlyn who seems to be more invested in defensive posting than solving or replying to Andante, which I think is behavior that a mafia player who needs to only survive and not solve correctly would engage in. This is a shallow read and I may change my mind after reading more but I feel obligated to provide at least something to kick the game back into action so… let’s do this after I am home!!

I do want to respond to this: All of town is in a need to survive situation, because we lose the game with one more mislim. Normally my responses to Andante's pushes would be to just ask her to vote me and be done with it, but I can't in this situation.

Hello again!

Yes, the town is in a survival position but they do not have the luxury to merely avoid elimination; they must eliminate correctly, and that mandates some amount of solving that the mafia does not need to do.

The post that made me curious to this was Andante's 2018 which, if I understand, is a point I feel might have gotten a town-you to reply to with more than you did: you wanted to give someone your vote but also were unsure of the vote. It's a worrisome dissonance, to not care to that degree. Or I suppose I would feel uncomfortable giving away my vote without absolute certainty in this situation? You chose to reply with 2019 and 2020 though. And from experience (which I have, but no one gets to know where it is from yet!) playing this way is often mafia's choice, as it's easier to snark than it is to logically rebut.

I'm not being snarky in 2020? I mean, 2019 is snark city but 2020 is completely serious.

I'm pretty new, so my experience in forum mafia is small, but so far for me snark is NAI. You're hinting you're an alt of a bigger account here though, so maybe I'm wrong. If you do think this is an indicator ('playing this way is often mafia's choice'), I'm curious that you brought up Andante's 2018 without comment given that it's, uh, a little snarky too.

To be fair, I think every post Andante ever makes has some snark hidden away in it

[Elpis]

Assuming Cephrir is not a mafia and Elpis is, it means that Elpis decided to slot their teammates together at the lower rungs, but just out of reach.

What other teammate are you referring to? We only know NM was scum.

I think they're pointing out that everyone else currently alive (aside from cephy) was middle-low on that list

Hey Elpis, you've said the Marquis slot has seemed scummy to you- could let them answer questions themselves?

On things that matter, sure, but that one seemed fairly obvious, considering the color coding they did on it.

[Elpis]

Elpis, who are you thinking is scum here? cause how you’re posting feels like you just tr everyone/aren’t really trying to figure out scum

I've been observing mostly, we have a lot of time and I've been low energy, and nobody screams scum at the moment so I'm mostly just waiting to hear more from the Marquis replacement at the moment. I also have a bit of an issue when it comes to Mafia, and life in general, where I am just bad at saying things people don't want to hear-- like claiming scum at people or such. People also tend to get really dramatic sometimes and exaggerate my claims, which is frustrating and makes me not want to make them.

I do not think Cephy is scum. I believe their bodyguard claim and think voting them is a terrible idea.

everyone else is on the table for me currently. Peregrine came in with accurate reads about me, so I'm inclined to trust that they might be right about other things, but I am holding judgement on that until I've seen more.

Andante is a wild card that I struggle to read because she's acting exactly like she did the last game we shared, and she was very town there, but maybe she would always act that way regardless of alignment? Could be either way, but not a confident tr or sr either way.

Merlyn has made a lot of assessments about me, many of which I understand the rationale behind, but obviously I know not to be true, which makes me feel like it could be some sort of offense to shift suspicion off their slot. However, it could just as easily be genuine reads, especially considering the tense state of the game at this point. I probably would feel comfortable voting them most, but that's genuinely not saying anything significant. I want more information, and I'm glad we have time to work on deciding that more.

To say I TR everyone is just incorrect. I TR Cephy, and everyone else is in a superposition of being town and being scum. If we DO consider that, I could start considering pairings and see what makes the most sense to me.

[Elpis]

I also have a bit of an issue when it comes to Mafia, and life in general, where I am just bad at saying things people don't want to hear-- like claiming scum at people or such. People also tend to get really dramatic sometimes and exaggerate my claims, which is frustrating and makes me not want to make them.

I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I just wanted you to know that if it's me you suspect, it's okay to come after me and I won't take it personally. You're either doing your job as town or pretending to do the job as scum lol. I don't want to be mean to you or make you not have a fun game- you actually seem like a really nice person who I just happen to think got a red PM is all.

One of the biggest reasons you're on my radar is kind of because I haven't really seen you come after anybody. Scum!Elpis would be doing a good job sort of staying below everyone's radar- maybe catching a little suspicion here or there, but never enough to be someone's number one suspect.

I think that's fair! This is my first actual game as town since my previous one was scum, so i'm still working on how to actually scumhunt. Most times when I play deception games, I do a lot more watching and trying to understand rationale for something than I do actively chase down, but that doesn't seem to be as effective in online forum mafia.

I also want to add that confidence over a claim against someone here is a bit more difficult, considering the state of the game is very all or nothing at the moment.

I think trying to view everyone as potential scum and then go through the logs questioning if the rationale fits might work, so I will maybe do that sometime soon.

[Elpis]

I don't know that I agree-- I appreciate their analysis and it feels like they're putting effort in to scumhunt with their quoting and searching.

Also-- i'm realizing that the better way to describe my scumhunting is by finding those that I TR, and seeking my scum through deciding who ISN'T scum, and is making decisions and choices that wouldn't make sense ever as scum.

[Elpis]

I think that's why I still feel like i'm scumhunting, but everyone sees me just going, "they're all kind of towny, but THESE people are conf town in my eyes".

[Elpis]

Like for example, at the moment, by knowing Cephrir is towny, and having some decent confidence in Peregrine's entrance, I am tightening my view focus to have more scrutiny on Merlyn and Andante for the moment.

[Elpis]

i think there's virtually no chance it's andante & elpis off these day 2 interactions eg 1169

1262 is kind of an interesting post in light of our current knowledge that gimli/elpis/marquis was absolutely not 3 townies and in fact was imo probably two scum

1328
-this gimli townread seems... really really flimsy, no?
-remarkably certain about NM, but i guess they haven't seen him before
-this marquis townread (1330) also seems really flimsy. if you forgot your scumbuddy on purpose, props

atp ive concluded that andante is town and i'm just trying to find the team in the remaining places it can be

I agree that both townreads were exceptionally flimsy. I should've seen Marquis's very minor amount of posts and thought, "hmm, this could be anything" as opposed to, "ah! town!"

Gimli just seemed....fine? I did put him null town because it was somewhat tentative.

[Elpis]

when fber is SUPER DUPER TOWNIE thats when he is town got it

you think he’s SUPER TOWN right now?
SUPER TOWN cause of the meme post?

I also am making this post as a personal bookmark in case I do not get to everything I want but! I have thoughts!!

Maybe I should use notes somewhere at some point but I am going to build off of this bookmark with a scrap of a thought! There is a consistent shift in Andante's reads regarding Gimli, which begins with their interactions feeling as if there's not a lot of solving from Andante's end when Gimli had a townread on her. But then she does shift to suspicion at said townread! And then to "I don't know but I wanna flip these other people before I dig in!" To... wanting to sheep him! (I have posts for these that I am not adding in to not clog the thread, but I can pull these if needed!) To a bit scummy again, and in the endgame (where I think it is most necessary to hedge your bets against a partner!) a scumread that does wavers at times but seems to be far more... rational, I suppose! Than the Ethel read was at the beginning!

Which I do not know what that says about Andante, the difference between a tunnel and a more fleshed out reasoning! I do know it is easier to scumread a partner as you know exactly what they're doing wrong, but I do not want to discredit the chance Andante could be right without additional information!

I really don't understand why the Ethel tunneling was a thing...

[Elpis]

yeah I'm not voting out norwee today/tomorrow (whenever we lim)

finally something that makes the norwe kill make even the slightest amount of sense

Just making sure-- the takeaway here is that norwe was killed because scum was under the impression that they would not be able to get them voted out?

I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, since there was a lot of suspicion on them already, if not just from me. I likely would've planted a vote there and not moved it without some big convincing, so it just seems like an unlikely rationale.

[Elpis]

Cephy, you have ruled out me being partners with Andante, and Gimli. You obviously know we are not partners, so how valid do you see me being partners with Marquis/Peregrine? I ask because if you don't see it as valid, then we'd have shared townreads, and could probably cooperate a bit better on trying to find partners in the others.

[Elpis]

lol this feels like you set off on the mission that I was scum then tried to find whatever to prove it... I know I'll do that sometimes when I get tunneld, but bruhhh half that "case" is literally just SRing me for being me? if you're going that much at me for how I play, you might just want to go skim past games of mine

i agree with this fwiw, it felt to me like they were fitting evidence to the conclusion "the scumteam is adnante and merlyn" rather than organically generating it

Like for example, at the moment, by knowing Cephrir is towny, and having some decent confidence in Peregrine's entrance, I am tightening my view focus to have more scrutiny on Merlyn and Andante for the moment.

im not sure i love how quickly you two seem to have arrived on the same page!

yeah I'm not voting out norwee today/tomorrow (whenever we lim)

finally something that makes the norwe kill make even the slightest amount of sense

Just making sure-- the takeaway here is that norwe was killed because scum was under the impression that they would not be able to get them voted out?

I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, since there was a lot of suspicion on them already, if not just from me. I likely would've planted a vote there and not moved it without some big convincing, so it just seems like an unlikely rationale.

i mean there's at least some possibility something different could have happened

idk my only other possible conclusion is that both scum were paying no attention to the game whatsoever which would make them the replaced slots

Us arriving at the same page isn't something that should be odd. They're expressing thoughts on a game that i've been in the whole time, and they're valid thoughts. Merlyn has been scumreading me since they arrived, and since I KNOW I'm not scum, it only makes sense to consider that they're not correct and not agree with their perspective on it. Plus, I'm always gonna be on and off conflicted about Andante. She's very difficult to read

[Elpis]

when fber is SUPER DUPER TOWNIE thats when he is town got it

you think he’s SUPER TOWN right now?
SUPER TOWN cause of the meme post?

I also am making this post as a personal bookmark in case I do not get to everything I want but! I have thoughts!!

Maybe I should use notes somewhere at some point but I am going to build off of this bookmark with a scrap of a thought! There is a consistent shift in Andante's reads regarding Gimli, which begins with their interactions feeling as if there's not a lot of solving from Andante's end when Gimli had a townread on her. But then she does shift to suspicion at said townread! And then to "I don't know but I wanna flip these other people before I dig in!" To... wanting to sheep him! (I have posts for these that I am not adding in to not clog the thread, but I can pull these if needed!) To a bit scummy again, and in the endgame (where I think it is most necessary to hedge your bets against a partner!) a scumread that does wavers at times but seems to be far more... rational, I suppose! Than the Ethel read was at the beginning!

Which I do not know what that says about Andante, the difference between a tunnel and a more fleshed out reasoning! I do know it is easier to scumread a partner as you know exactly what they're doing wrong, but I do not want to discredit the chance Andante could be right without additional information!

I really don't understand why the Ethel tunneling was a thing...

you don't understand? you were literally someone who was here in the moment yet you never wanted to ask me for clarification on that wagon? yeah I was convinced ethel was scum

I'm pretty sure I DID ask and I still am not entirely sure about it.

[Elpis]

I find it! Rather comforting to type like this, but if it is annoying I will try to stop!

Nope, now that I know you're not yelling it doesn't bother me.

The thing is, though, this is how Andante plays regardless of alignment (you don't have to take my word for it, read/skim some of her other games) . Any scumcase you make on her gamestyle isn't going to be a compelling one to me.

the fact that I think that his play this game would venture into absurdity if he was a mafia for the amount of mafia-siding he would have had to do with his pushes

This is a good point, and I think something similar- I noticed it when I started making notes of who was on what wagon.

I currently feel as if Elpis has not pushed much, if any, of an agenda this game and interfaced with Norwee in a way that made me feel as if they would not choose to kill him

Can you give me a concrete example of this? I'm asking because I have a very different take on that.

Just making sure-- the takeaway here is that norwe was killed because scum was under the impression that they would not be able to get them voted out?

That's not my takeaway. I've brought this before, but Cephrir was the one who should have been killed last night- he was much for widely townread than Norwee. Norwee should have been a good choice for scum to leave on the board. So, why did Cephrir live? (Obviously he could have lived bc he's scum, but that's not my belief) I think it's because someone he town reads is scum, so they thought he'd be a better choice to take to endgame. That is possibly Andante, but I've already said why I think it's Elpis. (oh, side note: I know Andante said she wasn't gonna vote Norwee no matter what, but if that's why he lived that's a bold choice- Andante is very changeable).

I just went and re-read the whole Ethel thing again- how is this not a kerfluffle over nothing? Andante didn't like that Ethel was voting her when Ethel read her as null. For some reason several people really focused on one the other part of the sentence ('she said she found you neither scummy NOR TOWN'!) and that was never really the point, Andante was questioning why place a vote on a null read. Also, Elpis, if you didn't understand it, I couldn't find where you asked Andante a question (but I fully admit I might have missed it) about it- I did see you post twice about how it was leaning town with you

As for the rest of what's going on...last time I played with Andante they came in swinging hard and being heavily defensive like they are now, and that time they were not just a town, but a power role. This reminds me a lot of that currently, so I am inclined to think that Andante is town, at least for the moment.

I think bbp is more likely scum than the other wagons

loved andante's entrances posts, don't really like her ethel push but like, I got it. you rep in you're highly suspected you get jumpy, I totally buy that was a real genuine and towny response from andante.

I don't think anything nsg did was scum indicative

I kinda hate firebringer and cephrir's treatment of the slot. of course I'm strong townreading firebringer but more on the fence with ceph.

I agree with most of this aside from the last part, though while what NSG has done hasn't been scummy, what she HASN'T done is. She's not really contributing to anything at all.

Maybe I didn't directly ask why, but I did fight her on it, and disagree immensely the entire time. Her accusing Ethel is also NOT why I had her lean town, I had her leaning town because even if I feel like she's acting bizarrely sometimes, that's just because I don't understand how she views and reads people. She was town last game and I spent that game not understanding why she thought everyone else was scum. I've sort of just come to the impression that if Andante is passionately scumreading someone, and that person seems to be town, it's actually incredibly likely that person is town.

[Elpis]

I guess I should have clarified, I meant different case because!!! What has been posted about Elpis hasn’t persuaded me! When I read their iso (something I just did!!) I truly get the sense they’re a new town player trying to keep up the best they can!!!

The lack of hard pushing people doesn’t phase me that much! A newer player may not be inclined to do so confidently, but they were consistently expressive and curious this game in a way that I think mafia would not be! I think it is a bit of a copout to equate depth to alignment but!! It’s where I’ve ended up!

The worst thing I can say about them is their treatment of N_M, and the vote on that wagon, did not have as many words as I would have wanted to explain or agree with the wagon around the vote itself! I suppose N_M may have asked Elpis to vote and put him on V-1 to make it look like a good bus but, I don’t know!!

However I am not sheeping anyone this game!! My thoughts are my own!!

Honestly, I feel like I said all I could think of about NM, they just weren't contributing, they barely had anything to say when they did, and they seemed completely unserious. I've been TOLD that them acting that way is normal by folks, but like, they just seemed scummier than anyone else in the game! Especially since I think at the time everyone was tunneling Ethel, which seemed really weird at the time considering she didn't do anything I percieved to be scummy. Not many people had at that point, so it just made sense to me to vote for them.

[Elpis]

As for the Andante and Peregrine discussion of voting:

I would probably be comfortable voting Merlyn because I think of the people in the game, they're the most likely to be scum, but if anyone has someone they feel is more likely between Peregrine and Andante, I'd be happy to hear different thoughts. We have plenty of time to consider things, and it's imperative we don't make the wrong choice.

[Elpis]

mostly because of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with peregrine themselves

What are the reasons?

[Elpis]

I guess I can try to produce thoughts another human could understand

Or

I could wait and see if the votes cross 2 2 and then I can do whatever I want with no accountability

That seems super dangerous because if a single town votes the wrong person that's an instant loss, right?

[Elpis]

Oh I see things got very scary while I was not looking

[Elpis]

I think... I mean I trust Peregrine, Cephy. I'd like to know why you don't think their posts are towny, but I am really under the impression that they joined in as town. There's a lot of discomfort and anxiety in their posting that feels genuine. I would be really surprised if scum acted so tentative while panicked and trying to make the right choice. If they're scum, they're doing an amazing job, but I trust them.

[Elpis]

Also my GOODNESS guys i'm on my phone am I gonna need to move to desktop just to be caught up? Terrifying

[Elpis]

Ah shit, knowing Cephy is town, and I'm town means that one of either Peregrine or Andante is scum

[Elpis]

I hate it here

[Elpis]

Regardless the play here based on that is that I am still confident that Merlyn is scum?? Maybe one of them wants to bus in order to shift suspicion????? This is the worst ever I'm just stressed

[Elpis]

Ah shit, knowing Cephy is town, and I'm town means that one of either Peregrine or Andante is scum

you know ceph is town? lol

Ceph being town is the only thing I have any significant confidence in right now, and MAYBE that Merlyn is?

[Elpis]

I misphrased that. Cephy I am confident in town

Merlyn I am confident must be scum??

[Elpis]

If we assume those elims-- and are correct, either I or Cephy will probably die and that would lead to Andante and Peregrine left, and I would have no idea.

[Elpis]

((( nervous )))

[Elpis]

Peregrine what are your thoughts?

[Elpis]

I've been sort of thinking the same thing at the moment...

[Elpis]

Should we just try it? Or is it wiser to wait and give it more consideration? I kind of feel the latter but I am very unsure because I do feel like maybe Merlyn should be dead right now

[Elpis]

Actually I'm reading the gamestate and I think the correct move is to vote: If Merlyn and Peregrine are the scum, I would expect Cephy to be too nervous to want to vote on them immediately, and it would make sense why they're still alive.

[Elpis]

VOTE: Merlyn

[Elpis]

Ugh I hate this, though! Peregrine doesn't seem scummy I'm upset and frustrated and being town is dumb and scary

[Elpis]

To be hoesnt if it is always going to be me tomorrow just kill metoday to save! A few days of worrying about a sitaution I cannot change!!

pretty sure if you're town and we kill you, we lose, right? there's still 2 scum?

[Elpis]

I'm not sure that makes any sense to say and now I'm just conflicted. I really don't want to vote actually

[Elpis]

UNVOTE:

[Elpis]

Sorry if I seem whiny but!! I really don't like having tofight a battle I cannot win, it just makes me upset to have put in effort that doesn't matter in the end!!!

shhhh I might be planning on autovoting someone else... either way, I am AUTOvoting if alive tomorrow lmao

what is autovoting?

[Elpis]

I'm not sure that makes any sense to say and now I'm just conflicted. I really don't want to vote actually

what do you mean?

What Peregrine said about voting them out to save a kill tomorrow or something? If they're town that makes no sense and if they're scum it ALSO feels like it doesn't make sense

[Elpis]

Sorry if I seem whiny but!! I really don't like having tofight a battle I cannot win, it just makes me upset to have put in effort that doesn't matter in the end!!!

shhhh I might be planning on autovoting someone else... either way, I am AUTOvoting if alive tomorrow lmao

what is autovoting?

voting the second day starts?

oh okay, that makes sense, new term for me

[Elpis]

To be hoesnt if it is always going to be me tomorrow just kill metoday to save! A few days of worrying about a sitaution I cannot change!!

pretty sure if you're town and we kill you, we lose, right? there's still 2 scum?

Yes but I guess the feeling I get from the posting currently is that I will probably be alive tomorrow if we get it right today and just mess things up and lose and I think that will be a little humiliatingto deal with and unfun!!

I thought your posts and reasonings were always good I don't think you should be so hard on yourself. If you're scum, I think you've done really well, and if you're town, that's probably okay too...this game is scary and confusing and I don't really understand it

[Elpis]

VOTE: Merlyn

[Elpis]

I sure hope not

[Elpis]

Did we lose

In response to this

[Elpis]

yeah good game everyone <3 I think you all did a really lovely job and I had a lot of fun playing this game

[Elpis]

Merlyn, MASSIVE props to you, you came in and landed bullseyes on every action I took, and it made me PANIC

[Elpis]

Beautiful end game Andante and Elpis! Great game all three of you!! I was only here part of the game, but it was so much fun.

Thanks Cat Scratch, A+ modding!

Thank you <3 and agreed, Cat Scratch did a great job

[Elpis]

Elpis! You are great, and I hope we get to play together again!!

P-Edit: I think you played it beautifully, perfect answers really!

Aww, thank you, I really appreciate it! It's been really funky because I've only done two games now and both have been on scum side-- I genuine think playing town is gonna be incredibly difficult and I will be lost, haha

[Elpis]

I definitely panicked at the marquis and gimli replacements lol, I was like "ELPIS... WE'RE DOOMED" merlyn, peregrine, yall did great!! definitely tough to rep in at the end like that

Yeah agreed! It's gotta be incredibly difficult to sub in and catch up!

[Elpis]

I definitely panicked at the marquis and gimli replacements lol, I was like "ELPIS... WE'RE DOOMED" merlyn, peregrine, yall did great!! definitely tough to rep in at the end like that

Andante, you were a force to be reckoned with!! Your gameplay as scum or town is exactly the same, that's incredible.

It GENUINELY is in a lot of ways, very scary

[Elpis]

I imagine mine probably will too

[Elpis]

ahhh didn't catch Elpis. Well played Elpis

This was such a repeat of our last game as scum together for andante that i started to catch on but was pretty late to the party on that still.

GG scum

thank you <3