TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Look LLD let's say it is Datisi/jjh.
Okay, let's try to find the third one. You have me and Bella as town.
If you are going to say that jjh massively prefers town and would be in here going for the gusto, I am going to say that Mena massively prefers town and would have probably openwolfed D1.

So that leaves Ythan and mith.

that sounds like a problem for future people who are still alive

once I kill JJH and Datisi, I'll be fuckin' dead. Unless Mith shoots Datisi for me.

[Alisae]

Look LLD let's say it is Datisi/jjh.
Okay, let's try to find the third one. You have me and Bella as town.
If you are going to say that jjh massively prefers town and would be in here going for the gusto, I am going to say that Mena massively prefers town and would have probably openwolfed D1.

So that leaves Ythan and mith.

that sounds like a problem for future people who are still alive

once I kill JJH and Datisi, I'll be fuckin' dead. Unless Mith shoots Datisi for me.

See if it were me, this would bother me a lot.
We have to figure this out now and if we can't figure it out then it just doesn't work

[Alisae]

btw I think you asked about the BP claim?
Well, if that slot is a wolf, why would they say they claimed BP? Isn't claiming the cop just a safer play on replace in?

[Alisae]

Look LLD let's say it is Datisi/jjh.
Okay, let's try to find the third one. You have me and Bella as town.
If you are going to say that jjh massively prefers town and would be in here going for the gusto, I am going to say that Mena massively prefers town and would have probably openwolfed D1.

So that leaves Ythan and mith.

that sounds like a problem for future people who are still alive

once I kill JJH and Datisi, I'll be fuckin' dead. Unless Mith shoots Datisi for me.

See if it were me, this would bother me a lot.
We have to figure this out now and if we can't figure it out then it just doesn't work

Like, when I am running down possible options for teams, if there are questions I cannot provide an answer for, that's usually a sign that I might be wrong.
I don't know how you could just leave it for the future people who are still alive because if it were me, I would go crazy over something like this.
And the times where I just ignore these signs were usually the times where I was wrong.

idunno, this is F8. There are 3 people who have to be on a team playing together. Who are those 3 people? The way to properly play these situations is to try to hunt for who you think the wolf team might be, right? Like, if you have an individual fos, a great way to answer check that is to see who their possible teammates could be if they're a wolf and what their path to victory is.

I feel like the only team of 3 that I can really think of that has a really clear path to victory, is playing together, and also generally just makes sense with literally everything in this game is {Ythan, mith, Datisi}.

Like it just has to be right!

[Alisae]

LLD you are really good at wolf!
A lot of where I feel like I draw my scumhunting from comes from how I understand wolves play and how they would want to play that alignment. I would like to think this is a skill I've honed really well, but recently (like in Cakez game) I've been rusty. But Cakez game taught me that I need to play these gamestates better and this is what better looks like.

[Alisae]

yknow what, lets do this LLD.

Let's run down partner equitity with Datisi and then partner equitity w/ jjh. Just those 2.

For Datisi, since I obviously think their teammates are Ythan and mith, I am going to leave them out.

Ali - So if you think I shot Staeg because I am cop hunting, then you must think that I wanted to wagon Staeg because I thought they were a cop. Ok, so why doesn't Datisi just hammer Staeg. It's a really good play if I know that jjh is also a wolf.

You mentioned I think that wolves didn't have to do anything in that gamestate?
You approach wolf very reactionary, ya? Like, I remember in Election you told me "I don't play my hand unless I absolutely need to play my hand and the ball was bounced back into my court"
I'm like the total opposite, I am very proactive. I'm not afraid at all to use my numbers to get what I want if I absolutely need something. This is what I spent the entirety of Demon Slayer doing. I am not afraid at all to proactively play my game and get what I want. I very strongly believe in "Control the narrative, Drive the agenda." I'm typically the person on wolf teams that does all of the dirty work and gets things done, and generally speaking I go under a lot of fire for it but I'm usually able to marginalize those who go against me.

The key difference between my townplay and my wolfplay is how effectively I am able to get things done. As a wolf, I get things done way more effectively because of how well I am able to utilize my numbers. It's just something I can easily focus on more.
As town, I'm a lot more scattered, chaotic, unpredictable, methodical, and I have a hard time of getting the things I actually want.

SO WITH ALL OF THIS IN MIND
Datisi just votes Staeg. If I wanted Staeg dead so badly that I wanted to night kill him, I use my numbers to get that flip.

Bella - I am going to continue to uphold that I don't think this player unvotes staeg and declares a TR on them if they are a wolf w/ Datisi.

Mena - I think the way they have been talking to each other during d1 might actually be indicative of Mena trying to organize with Datisi in thread. Generally speaking if this is happening, it is likely to come from a wolf talking to a townie or town talking to who they think is town. Generally speaking this doesn't really happen with wolves and I don't think it needs to. There's also the fact that Mena by his own standards would probably just vote Staeg in this situation.

jjh - I want to say that their interactions w/ Andante slot during D2. I found Datisi's interactions w/ the slot during Twilight 2 on a glance to likely be not theater? Otherwise if you don't care about this, this is the only pairing I think could be a thing.

So if we throw out Ythan and mith, the only thing that works is JJH. Okay.

Let's run the jjh side of things.

Ali - If I'm having this slot vote staeg and putting it into hammer range, I likely have a hammer to follow it up coming as well. We're the only unflipped players alive on this wagon so, you have to ask why am I shooting Staeg at night compared to just killing them during the day.

Bella - I feel like Bella would probably bus this player harder if they're a wolf w/ them on D2. Also again, why is Gimli getting ON Staeg, but Bella getting OFF. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Mena - Why didn't Staeg go through?

Datisi - See above.


mith - Ran it down in 3992

Ythan - Why are they fakeclaiming a guilty on JJH? Why not just mith?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD you are really good at wolf!
A lot of where I feel like I draw my scumhunting from comes from how I understand wolves play and how they would want to play that alignment. I would like to think this is a skill I've honed really well, but recently (like in Cakez game) I've been rusty. But Cakez game taught me that I need to play these gamestates better and this is what better looks like.

Honestly... I just don't know.

I'm keeping my mind open but you're asking me to fold pocket aces. Andante quick hammered, then replaced out instead of claiming. JJH can't produce why he picked BP from team chat things. Ythan's play as cop makes sense, and scum not shooting her to force this possible play where we kill Ythan instead is also a play I might make as scum. It is a bit of an all in push but it makes sense.

I'm listenting to you. I'm hearing you.

Just... don't hold it against me if I say "we're doing JJH today come along Ali" cause... it's just hard to get off this hand when it feels like I win more than I lose by killing JJH here

[mith]

There are two glaring problems with your approach, Ali.

The big one for me is: possible team compositions are easy to manipulate as scum. You get wrapped up in who is scum with who and you end up talking yourself out of the scummiest player because “they have no partners”. I literally won my previous two games on the site because of this.

Second, and more specific to the way *you* are arguing this, is that you are repeatedly ruling out possible teams over such things as “Mena probably does X D1” or “hey LLD you think me and Bella are town”. This sort of read *isn’t, can’t be, 100% certain unless you are scum*. LLD could, from her point of view, be wrong about me, or Ythan, or you, or Bella. Or maybe it’s just jjh/Datisi/Mena and you’re wrong about how Mena “probably” approaches D1. To argue that she can’t really think it’s jjh+Datisi+1 because it might mean one of her town reads is wrong is absurd.

[Alisae]

now I ran down Datisi/jjh teams in 3987. They don't make a whole lot of sense.

I fail to see who the third one can be. I think Datisi/mith/Ythan is just a really eloquent solution. You even said why better than I ever could.
mith to take the n3 gun away from town.
ythan to take the cop away from town.
Datisi to confirm ascetic status.

Day 1 played out how it did because wolves didn't want to do Staeg because they thought if they were a 1-shot gun, giving that to Imaginality would be really bad! Disastrous even! Catastrophic!
So they ran up Imaginality instead, he was a better elim for wolves! When they couldn't get Imaginality, they swapped wagons onto Rad. Turned out, he was the doctor, and that mith, who completely disrespects doctors and thinks they're trash, decided that they were okay with giving Imaginality the doctor.

[Alisae]

LLD you are really good at wolf!
A lot of where I feel like I draw my scumhunting from comes from how I understand wolves play and how they would want to play that alignment. I would like to think this is a skill I've honed really well, but recently (like in Cakez game) I've been rusty. But Cakez game taught me that I need to play these gamestates better and this is what better looks like.

Honestly... I just don't know.

I'm keeping my mind open but you're asking me to fold pocket aces. Andante quick hammered, then replaced out instead of claiming. JJH can't produce why he picked BP from team chat things. Ythan's play as cop makes sense, and scum not shooting her to force this possible play where we kill Ythan instead is also a play I might make as scum. It is a bit of an all in push but it makes sense.

I'm listenting to you. I'm hearing you.

Just... don't hold it against me if I say "we're doing JJH today come along Ali" cause... it's just hard to get off this hand when it feels like I win more than I lose by killing JJH here

why is Andante replacing out wolfy? I thought you were kind of harsh on them.
why would jjh just say that he's a BP if he's a wolf? If you're replacing in, just saying they went for cop is the safer play.

Why is Ythan even alive if Staeg is a cop hunting kill? How did they let this happen?
The easiest answer to that question is that it wasn't a cop hunting kill because wolves don't fear a cop.

This team I am explaining ALSO kills Marashu btw. Did you ever come to an answer on why Marashu dies?

[mith]

“Day 1 played out how it did because wolves didn't want to do Staeg because they thought if they were a 1-shot gun, giving that to Imaginality would be really bad! Disastrous even! Catastrophic!
So they ran up Imaginality instead,”

Seriously? You’re suggesting this mythical scum team was so sure that Staeg had 1-shot Vig that we didn’t want to lim him and give it to imaginality

before we wagoned imaginality

?

(Also, imaginality got to 5 with LLD saying she would hammer. By your logic, why wouldn’t Ythan get on board?)

[Alisae]

LLD why is mith trying to talk to me like they give a damn about solving my alignment when we both have agreed that talking is just pointless, we'll never see eye to eye, and even blatantly said that they're trying to discredit everything I say because they think I'm mafia!
Like he's just trying to bait me into talking to him at this point. Like, how is this productive?

[Alisae]

You wanna know how mith killed Imaginality?

Imaginality responded to mith
then mith responded to imaginality
then imaginality responded to mith
rinse repeat

[Alisae]

he can't keep getting away with it

[Alisae]

JJH can't produce why he picked BP from team chat things.

btw what gives you the impression Gimli was even talking to teammates throughout this game?
I don't feel like they got any support from their team this game but I could be wrong.
Let me double check their ISO

[Alisae]

I just ctrl + f "team" in Gimli's ISO I don't see anything that implies that they were talking to their team about the game.

[Alisae]

btw the one time I played TM in 2020 I think it was, I didn't get any help from my teammates at all. Sometimes it just doesn't happen, so I don't think them not getting anything from their teammates is alignment indicative.

[mith]

Yes, I was totally serious when I said I'm discrediting everything you say because I think you're scum.

I mean ur mafia so ur job is to discredit what I say and I’m the person who’s actually trying to look and break down teams so….

As far as "discrediting" what you say, I mean ur mafia so of course I'm going to discredit what you say.

I'm discrediting you because

you are wrong

. Repeatedly, demonstrably wrong. When it is pointed out that you are wrong, you deflect or say it's pointless to talk to me, in some cases

continuing to make the same wrong statements

(like the thing about the only living players on the Staeg wagon being you and jjh while simultaneously arguing that Bella doesn't unvote from the Staeg wagon). I

think

that's coming from you being scum, I'm self-aware enough to know that I might be wrong about that.

we both have agreed that talking is just pointless

At no point have I believed, said, suggested, or implied in any way that I think it is pointless to talk to you. That's all coming from you.

[Alisae]

LLD I'll just give up if jjh just doesn't do anything by the time deadline approaches.
We're using the deadline right?
Lets use it.

Honestly jjh to finish reading I think is the main thing that we're waiting for. Right now we're kind of just right now

[Alisae]

Ythan's play as cop makes sense, and scum not shooting her to force this possible play where we kill Ythan instead is also a play I might make as scum.

LLD does anyone want to lose a team mafia game because they kept 1st pick cop alive?
Like who loses to that and lets that happen if Staeg was a cop hunting kill as you say it was?

[Ythan]

Hard to spend a kill on a player who does literally nothing in thread for two days

[Alisae]

I feel like my theories make a lot of sense.
I don't know why jjh claims bulletproof if they're a wolf. Honestly, their claim is wine. Couldn't this slot fakeclaim something here? Idunno, it could honestly be anything, do we really care about this players claim? Like, is there anything that anyone would even find remotely trust worthy? I don't think there is. It's just wine.

[Alisae]

Honestly the worst claim that's out there is Mena claiming he took the rb but i don't give a fuck honestly he's probably town based on the events that happened in the game

[mith]

I feel like my theories make a lot of sense.

I feel like you are not playing Mafia but rather "Keep Talking and Nobody Has a Chance to Keep Up with All My Bad Takes".

Anyway, I'm going to bed, I feel like crap and I'm not the 20-year-old I used to be who could stay up all night playing (much slower paced) games. Oh to be young and healthy again.

[Alisae]

I feel like you are not playing Mafia but rather "Keep Talking and Nobody Has a Chance to Keep Up with All My Bad Takes".

Ya I can't wait to lose this game because you attack everything that opposes you and LLD would rather just trust her read on you and ythan over everything else.