TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Shirou]

Cop is one of the most asinine roles to play against as scum because it's so powerful and scum is rarely told "Hey, there's a cop".

A Roaming Role Watcher is overall a pretty mid investigative. Someone seeing that you're a loud rolecop isn't even a guilty or soft guilty, it's just a "hmmm, could be scum" at best.

Arguing that this would be unbalanced for scum cannot be serious.

[Shirou]

What's your play-based argument for me being scum?

this cannot be in good faith

I've talked so much about why I scum read Mastina play today around me for example

You all need to understand that she's REALLY throwing stuff at the wall like this and hoping I can't have the energy or will to counter everything.

[mastina]

If balanced in your mind is "no town investigative PR can get any sort of soft guilty on scum", that's disingenuous. I doubt you seriously believe that.

Oh that would indeed be disingenuous, but thankfully, the disingenuous take is you saying I have that take.

My statement is it is factual a Loud Rolecop--especially in this game--cannot realistically fakeclaim. It's possible in fringe cases, but in most cases the fakeclaim gets caught by virtue of being a loud role in a game with a role watcher that the scum have no way of knowing exists.

Due to them not realistically being able to fakeclaim, the Loud Rolecop cannot realistically avoid claiming Rolecop.

Due to rolecop being a stereotypical scum role, a scum rolecop is going to be suspected when claiming.

Because the scum loud rolecop can't fakeclaim outside of fringe cases,
And because the scum loud rolecop is likely to be suspected for being a common scum role,
It is likely that the scum loud rolecop would...

...Basically be a free elimination handed to the town. Or at the very least, require the scum have an uphill battle.

That's all factual. And yes, this is how a reviewer things. I'm literally running through reviewer brain in explaining this interaction--if I were a reviewer in the proposed setup, I would be explaining this to the setup designer for why I'm not approving the setup because the setup would be ludicrously townsided due to the town having an inherent advantage that scum wouldn't realistically be able to overcome.

LEAST of all in a Team Mafia game, which is a format historically speaking where the town has a much easier time solving than the scum. (I think TM games disproportionately have town wins more often than statistically likely?)

In a format already naturally townsided,
With a townsided setup,
That wouldn't pass any review I'd be a part of because it'd be too strong for the town.

[Shirou]

I had doubts until now.

After so many pages, I still thought that Mastina could be town and it's Xof/Someone or something.

But this argument about roaming loud watcher being unbalanced against a scum team that even has a roleblocker CANNOT be real.

[Shirou]

There's no way you think that an unique mid investigative like Roaming Role Watcher is broken for a hypothetical scum team that even has a rolebroker

Ydra investigative was pretty weak

If you've said it for the heck of it I'll give you a few posts to retract that because it's NOT possible you really think that as a reviewer that has seen countless setups. I refuse to believe it.

[mastina]

You're "winning" the debate by spouting so many twists like the above that I can't be arsed to reply to every one of them

That'd be you.

I've been giving facts.

You've been the one twisting them.

I've backed up my views by demonstrating the chain of events.

You've been cherrypicking the wording you feel is easiest to twist to mean something it doesn't.

[Shirou]

Oh that would indeed be disingenuous, but thankfully, the disingenuous take is you saying I have that take.

You've in the below of this tried to do mental gymnastics to say that this isn't your take, but it IS you take

You think that scum couldn't counterplay it so therefore it can't exist or something

Bullshit.

[Shirou]

I can think in 2 seconds a fakeclaim:

Loud Visitor

and you only gotta counterplay the ROAMING role watcher like every scum always counterplays town PRs

Absolutely bullshit.

[Shirou]

You can even claim Loud Neapolitan.

and there's never a massclaim on D1 on this site this is fucking disingenuous, it's always in the last days and a scum rolecop would know by then if they have been seen or not by the watcher most likely.

[mastina]

I've also noted that you say you've no read on DeasVail
However, you straight up SKIPPED MY POST about DV/Koba interactions
You are NOT trying to sort DeasVail. That's BS.

It wouldn't exactly be a read on DV if I was sheeping your case without investigating it myself, now, would it?

I know for a fact you've twisted the facts of the game before--you literally have done so repeatedly today.

Why would I blindly believe your DV case without researching to see if it is the same?

I've unfortunately not had the time yet to do exactly that.

But there's a difference between sorting DV, and blindly following a case from someone who is already a proven liar.

[Shirou]

I've fakeclaimed disloyal vigilante as scum and people believed it until we got mechanically guilted (and it wasn't because of my claim, the cop just cleared too many people later on because we failed to nightkill him)

It was a normal game btw

I don't believe you can be town here and have said any of this in good-faith anymore.

[mastina]

Summarize in at maximum three lines without quoting a "good point" of yours that isn't the one you got from me.
or "Koba scumslipped" when both me and Ausuka already explained what very likely was the reason behind that post.

"Give me reasons behind this read, but not these reasons that are a large part of the read, or those other reasons that are a large part of the read".

But sure, try this.

Freedom was wagoned on D1, under severe pressure--and proven scum defended Freedom and pushed a mislim through.
Freedom was wagoned on D2, under severe pressure--and proven scum defended Freedom and quickhammered a mislim.
Freedom has been acting like scum the entire game and doesn't have a lick of towniness to their name--yet despite the game-long pressure on Freedom, despite being the counterwagon to

two flipped town

, Freedom is alive still.

[xofelf]

You can even claim Loud Neapolitan.

What is a Neapolitan?

[Shirou]

I'll not let go of this single point.

Your take on the loud rolecop being unable to fakeclaim or play around the roaming watcher is trash and the scummiest thing in your entire ISO.

Now I really gotta sleep, goodnight.

[Shirou]

You can even claim Loud Neapolitan.

What is a Neapolitan?

checks if a person is VT or not

I guess in this game it would be silly on hindsight given there's only one VT but basically a scum loud rolecop can fakeclaim most common investigative roles, and it doesn't even need to claim investigative. The more info you PR gives, the easier to fakeclaim it is. It's easy to fakeclaim a lot of stuff with rolecop.

[xofelf]

Ah! Okay, thanks. I did figure there's a lot of viable fakeclaims, it was just a role i'd never heard of. Appreciate the explanation <3

[Shirou]

Freedom was wagoned on D1, under severe pressure--and proven scum defended Freedom and pushed a mislim through.
Freedom was wagoned on D2, under severe pressure--and proven scum defended Freedom and quickhammered a mislim.
Freedom has been acting like scum the entire game and doesn't have a lick of towniness to their name--yet despite the game-long pressure on Freedom, despite being the counterwagon to two flipped town
, Freedom is alive still.

I don't think Koba defended Freedom directly?

And people said that Italiano wagon had "resistance" as well and Italiano was just town limbait

and I don't even think Freedom is that towny, DV or you is just scummier and you're both pushing Freedom

[Shirou]

and Freedom wasn't wagoned on "severe pressure" on D2. Literal fiction. People said they suspected Freedom and that's it, I believe you had more votes than Freedom through the day and I'm not even arguing you were under "severe pressure".

I can be misremembering but I believe Kowah wagon happened really fast and unilaterally after yours wagon began to diminish, which is why the quickhammer looked so scummy as well. It went too fast.

[mastina]

"as long as it gets rid of the watcher" is balancing off of a fringe result, Shirou.

Mastina this is the equivalent of telling that every scum team needs to have a godfather to balance a cop, because otherwise if they don't kill the cop the cop will clear/guilty everyone!

No?

The Loud Rolecop has a BEACON on them.
A beacon screaming "WATCH THE PLAYER WHO I TARGET TO VERIFY MY ROLE".

There's a difference between a cop who needs to investigate scum to get a guilty but has no clue who is scum,
And a role that will get a guilty by targeting exactly where they need to go on a reliable basis.

Let me put this into the metaphor of a game with a town cop.

If the game with a town cop has a scum player be publicly announced, by the mod, "THIS PLAYER CANNOT HAVE ACTIONS TARGETING THEM FAIL" (basically, an inverted ascetic),
What would the cop do?

They'd cop the scum player.

Same principle applies here.

Scum don't need a counter to every investigative role--but scum

shouldn't be easily targeted by default

by that investigative which can guilty them.

There's a difference between a cop having to figure out exactly the right target and the setup telling them nothing about who to target,
And a cop having who to target handed to them by the setup.

Alternative example, imagine if a game had like six ascetics, and a cop, and a non-ascetic scum.
The ascetics claim ascetic, because being ascetic is something town players frequently claim.
The non-ascetic scum doesn't claim ascetic because actions on them won't fail.
The cop, seeing all the ascetic players, knows not to target them...
...And has a narrowed pool down to...
...The non-ascetic scum that they can guilty.

THAT is what a scum Loud Rolecop is in a setup with a town role watcher.
It has a beacon saying "TARGET WHO I CLAIM I WILL TARGET".

Which a cop in a game by default...wouldn't have.

[Shirou]

I really gotta go for now but

It is weird that DV isn't voting.

Yeah, it is...

[mastina]

To Mastina, scum can have a roleblocker, but can't have a town PR that could guilty them. Town can't have one single dangerous PR that could screw the scum so that the scum team would need to hunt for them.

Like I said--you're twisting what I am saying, because you're not trying to solve me.

You're trying to case me.

I never said what you are saying I am saying.

My stance has remained fairly clear, and consistent, the entire time.

The scum did have a role that was easy to guilty.
That itself can be balanced around.
I am arguing the scum wouldn't have

two

roles easy to guilty.
That cannot be balanced around, because

two

easily-guiltied scum roles being scum means...
...That a D1 massclaim would break the game in favor of the town.

You have argued that scum rolecop can lie;
I pointed out why they can't.
You have argued that scum rolecop can just "git good" and magically predict the setup and get away with a lie by somehow reliably nullifying the role watcher.
I pointed out why they can't do that reliably and how a setup reviewer wouldn't use that logic.
You have argued that not balancing off of the fringe case is akin to demanding every TPR is easily nullified.
I pointed out why the problem is the combo involved.

You keep moving goalposts, repeatedly, to accuse me.

I keep pointing out how the NRG actually works and why your arguments run in violation of their process.

[Shirou]

That cannot be balanced around, because two
easily-guiltied scum roles being scum means...
...That a D1 massclaim would break the game in favor of the town.

I've literally never seen a D1 massclaim on a normal game in this site.

Furthermore, you keep saying that scum couldn't fakeclaim and they absolutely could. The roleblocker wasn't even loud or announcing.

Roleblocker could have fakeclaimed any kind of shit they wanted.

[mastina]

There's no way that Mastina, a reviewer, really thinks that roaming roleblocker + loud rolecop can't counter a single roaming role watcher
That's NOT a real or valid opinion to hold.

Well given the loud rolecop is loud and there's more roles in the game than the role watcher? Roles that can interfere with the scum, and protect the role watcher? Roles which can also help guilty the scum if they are left unchecked while the scum DO deal with the role watcher?

Yeah pretty much.

Again.

If the game could be broken by massclaim on D1--

It would not pass review.

A Loud Rolecop lying in massclaim on D1 would be easily exposed by the doctor protecting the role watcher and the role watcher watching the Loud Rolecop's target. The Loud Rolecop lying about their target gets sussed for not following the plan; the Loud Rolecop who tells the truth gets sussed for being a stereotypical scum role; the Loud Rolecop who lies and does target who the role watcher watches needs for the roleblocker to block the role watcher...and when the role watcher gets no results, the Loud Rolecop falls under suspicion.

You cannot make that setup not result in the Loud Rolecop being suspect after a D1 massclaim.
Loud Rolecop tells truth--suspect due to being stereotypical scum role.
Loud Rolecop doesn't claim role--is either unable to use role at all, or gets exposed as lying during the massclaim when visiting.
Loud Rolecop lies about what role they are, and then doesn't visit the target they were meant to because the role watcher is on that player--is seen as suspect for not following the plan.
Loud Rolecop risks visiting the target and the role watcher is blocked--is seen as suspect, and that's if the roleblock even works.

If the roleblocker instead roleblocks the doctor and scum kill the role watcher--the Loud Rolecop is probably still not getting off the hook.

You cannot make a scum loud rolecop in a setup with a scum roleblocker and have the scum loud rolecop NOT be automatically seen as suspect. It's literally impossible, barring blind luck of a fringe case where the loud rolecop magically nullifies the role watcher before they can catch the loud rolecop lying about their role.

[Shirou]

Roleblocker claims VT or anything they want

Rolecop claims Loud Visitor or something or straight up rolecop (YOU CLAIMED ROLECOP BEFORE AND WASN'T SUSPECTED).

Also if they massclaimed on D1 they would know the watcher and know how to roleblock/nightkill them?

No idea whatever you mean by this being breakable at all.

[mastina]

I've literally never seen a D1 massclaim on a normal game in this site.

Yeah you know why?

Because we design setups to not be breakable with a massclaim!

If we designed setups to be breakable with a massclaim, there would be massclaims.

So every setup--literally every setup--needs to not be breakable by massclaim, to ensure the trend of not being breakable by massclaim persists.