Mafia 2301: Angels and Demons (Game Over)

[imaginality]

Hi all, early heads up I may not be around much this week, and especially this weekend (finishing and returning from an overseas vacation). All systems go after that!


GrandpaMo is locktown because he hasn't posted a dozen pages of nonstop bantering this game.

VOTE: demona I've never been culted before, fun! I don't see any downsides of openly accepting this offer from a self-outed cult leader!

[imaginality]

My initial vote on demona was a mix of cult meme silliness and it being good to get a wagon going, since her overreaction to a page 1 vote on her felt weird and I wanted to see what happened if more pressure was put on her.

I am not a fan of the AtE and her apparent focus on how she's being read compared with scumhunting. But her post when she was at E-2 asking for unvotes did have a genuine 'nervous town rather than scum' feel to it for me.

VOTE: unvote

Re. setup spec I enjoy it in opens and mini themes but in a bastard game like this with so little to go on, and not stated to be role madness, it seems like all it would achieve is give scum clues as to who might have PRs.

@Greeting is your GrandpaMo vote RVS or is there a reason for it?

[imaginality]

Imaginalty, what do you think about Grandpa's vote on Bianco?

Initial votes with no reasoning I'm fine with this early on. But the way others piled on to it looks pretty bad.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

@CSF you were concerned about the speed of demona's wagon, what do you think about this one?

[imaginality]

The one thing I wonder about imaginality is about the cat scrathc vote just when bianco was put at-e1
There's just that fade away. Along with cat scratch being okay with it. Neither urges wheme or drew and unvote.


Imag who votes cat is ok with bianco being put at hammer range with cat there?
Mo then urges the hammer? Scum in wheme/cat/imag/mo/drew if bianco green?

I mean, the wagon looked bad to me (I said as much and voted CSF for how CSF joined it (considered voting Whemestar also)), but I don't see the need to tell people to unvote because town would have more sense than to hammer this early so if bianco is town then it'd be a 1 for 1 trade if scum hammered.

---
Meuh's 140 is exactly what I thought, reading through just now.

I townread Meuh, demona, and Greeting (among other things I don't see scum motivation in questioning Mo's post restriction claim only to townread him anyhow)

Lean town on GrandpaMo (play so far reminds me more of chatgpt than DemonSlayer) and biancospino.

Null on FrozenAngel and Phil.

I think the scum (if 2 scum) are among DoctorDrew, CatScratchFever, and whemestar.

So I guess I'll join this: VOTE: whemestar

[imaginality]

(Also I'm around for the next hour or so)

[imaginality]

Hi Phir. Do you disagree with my reason for not yelling at the E-1 bianco wagoners? Or is there something else on your mind?

[imaginality]

Bianco is a better wagon than myko I reckon

And that seems like a bit of a stretch to call Gmo and Demona connected.

It wasn't like a super serious read, just something for me to look back on and think about if either ever flip scum

I don't think is likely that CSF is scum if both Mo and Demona are town. Otherwise that would be a pretty useless thing to note.

VOTE: Wheme, should be E-2

I think it's NAI. No risk to scum to post about hypotheticals they know won't come to pass.

[imaginality]

Feel better soon!

[imaginality]

???

Is Greeting scummy?

also while i do not think greeting is scummy i guess i do not see why grandpamo is scummy either

but wagons etc

Mo can be town. But.

The urge to hammer, then s wantsme want biancoto claim for theyre in range.

I might vote between imaginality and wheme for now. Grreeting total null, can swing both ways.

VOTE: Whemestar

Are you on board with a biancospino hammer?

@Phil: can you clarify what you're saying in the bolded sentence above?

[imaginality]

@Phir not Phil sorry

[imaginality]

Poems?

[imaginality]

Ah those.

Well thanks Phir, I can't begin to express how well that comment helped to clarify the bolded sentence. Nothing could have been more relevant.

Goodnight all

[imaginality]

I still kinda want to know what the pst restriction is and if it makes sense with his role

The only time I've seen a real posting restriction is where it made sense flavor wise

I miss post restrictions, I had two awesome ones back in the day:

Monty Python's Mafia: I was Bruce the Australian Philosopher. The whole game, I had to refer to all the other players as Bruce.

You Are... Mafia: I was a Romanian Vampire and every second post of mine had to be lyrics from Dragostea Din Tei

I also want to know what GrandpaMo's post restriction is. I have an idea in mind of what it might be.

[imaginality]

I thought it obvious but the difference between drew and bianco here is that bianoc is acting like a scum sheep , they try to soft push demona and vote them and then they get off demona with no further context and reason. they don't explain nothing

and also them townresding me for that reason? can't be

With your take that bianco soft-pushed demona before hopping off, are you saying demona is bianco's scumbuddy?

Cos I don't see that.

If not explaining stuff is scummy come join me on the whemestar wagon.

[imaginality]

I wonder if it's relevant that WhemeStar was actually only at E-3 when CSF said she wasn't going to vote WhemeStar to avoid being yelled at for E-1-ing them.

@Meuh what's your read on WhemeStar?

[imaginality]

Quick heads up, I'm flying the next 24 hrs. Will catch up after that.

In other news my football team Luton won their play-off final and got promoted!!!!

[imaginality]

Hi, I'm back!

Also, wtf lol

I legit can't express how much GrandpaMo's awful attempts at sounding medieval physically pains me.

@GrandpaMo:

1. After we have asked and you have answered 25 valid questions does your role, or anything else about the game state, change in any way that would be undesirable from a town perspective?

2. In 366 you say both "- i has't gen'ral inf'rmation on the game. I shall useth this inf'rmation to most wondrous guideth thee as town's guardian angel" and "i doth not has't extra inf'rmation on oth'r roles, mod, and mechanics".

Have you received information about the game in either your role PM or other communications from the mod that you wish to convey to us?

3. Are there future phases of the game where we can ask you further questions of you in your Guardian Angel mode (e.g. after 25 D2 posts, or after 25 more 'normal' posts)?

[imaginality]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever E-2

If there was scum on WhemeStar it's probably this vote switch to Enchant because I don't think scum!Drew would switch to Mo (if Mo was a likely mislim that would've kicked off after the fake PR stuff).

And... eh I guess scum!bianco might see town!Phir as a possible mislim but CSF's vote on Enchant seems the most likely to be scum trying to get a different mislim going after the first one stalled.

The rolefishing seems bad (narrows down who might be doc, also the 'weird or normal roles' question could help scum with faking claims. Specifically I don't think we should say if there are thematic flavour elements in our PMs or not). But it does seem, particularly demona asking about doc, too blatant for scum to feel comfortable doing it.

This is a pretty weird game to try to read, it feels like listening to people talking underwater. I wouldn't be opposed to limming WhemeStar still (I think the flip would be more informative than waiting to get a read from their posts) but I was suspicious of CSF earlier and the switch to Enchant has pinged me again.

[imaginality]

me hammering someone doesn't mean I scumrwsd them or townrwsd them. I just wanted a hammer thats all to move the game forward. I feel like csf and spino are both two good informative votes

i am rather opposed to hammers for "information" et cetera i just want to eliminate whoever seems to be the very most likely scums to me and almost everytime i deviate from this i end up regretting it

like literally that just means eliminating someone for little reason other than there was a wagon on them

Nah GrandpaMo is right here, some wagons have enough context around them that even if it's a townflip it still helps a lot with unravelling the mysteries of the game.

Not all wagons, though. Plus even a good info wagon is a bad hammer if it's too early in the day. But I am on GrandpaMo's side that it feels like a good time to advance the game with a CSF flip (which I think will flip scum anyhow, so two birds one stone).

[imaginality]

CSF somehow gets scummier with every post

I like this, could get behind dueling wagons of CSF/Gmo

This seems like Drew expressing suspicion of CSF but CSF is already being wagoned so all it actually is doing is calling for more votes on GrandpaMo

[imaginality]

no I wanna rush hammer here. game been dead we need more info other than u spamming the thread with your introspective thoughts. Idk what I think anymore im lost

please just don't like there's more to gain here and game being dead is very sortable like if cat scratch fever is a scums where are the partners who would be presumably trying to move the wagon? like from your perspective there really isn't anyone i wouldn't think because to me it seems like you're mainly the only one who would fit that description,

i assume scum!doctor drew is pretty capable of creating a counterwagon like well beyond what was shown here, so seems unlikely doctor drew is partnered with cat scratch fever and was trying to create an outlet

I don't see why you make that assumption. Especially with the earlier discussion just now about the game being slow etc. Not like Drew can create a counterwagon all by himself. So I can see Drew as a viable buddy in a scum!CSF world.

[imaginality]

hm, how do you feel about very recent biancospino posts?

It seemed plausibly genuine suspicion on bianco's part to me. To me it doesn't feel like bianco was waiting for a reason to justify the vote. That said I think your wariness about it is also town as I can see why you would be wondering that.

[imaginality]

Noticed something

@Imaginality

did you have a green check on me during day 1?

As in am I a daycop with a result on you?
Nope. You just make the most sense to me of anyone with your posts. And actually seem to be trying to solve.

is it true that this:

VOTE: grandpamo

is what you want?

You know, I'm contemplating this. Don't see the town motivation to put on this massive waste of time. I do see the Jester motivation if it's what you're alluding to.

1. This may just be spot on
2. Bianco specifically having jester in mind could be leaking from her being mime here?

Agreed about this.

What would work for balance here? 7 town 2 scum 2 mimes? Though that would mean today already ELO if CSF were town rather than mime.

I don't think 6 town 2 scum 3 mimes works for balance. Maybe 6-sk-3 could.

Drew and WhemeStar are my picks for scum; maybe Enchant.

Enchant bianco Grandpa are possible mimes.

Meuh Phir and Greeting can all be town I guess though I want to look more at Phir who's been a bit under my radar.

P-edit wow okay.

I think we need to lim Greeting here. If Greeting flips town we know Meuh is scum. If Greeting flips mafia great! If Greeting flips mime, ehhh not so great buuuuuuttt....

[imaginality]

I think if Greeting were the mime then yeah, they probably don't go quite this blatantly for it.

[imaginality]

VOTE: Greeting

[imaginality]

Cat Scratch Fever (6): Greeting, imaginality, biancospino, GrandpaMo, Enchant, Cat Scratch Fever

2 of these people include mime

and atleast 1 include scum.

i see imag and enchant being mime

Is this GrandpaMo mime-slipping that there are three mimes not two?

[imaginality]

Angels = town players
Demons = the mod for using mimes and the reviewer for letting the mod inflict this setup on us

[imaginality]

Aside from anything else if the power giver was town then there should be one player who believes Greeting (presumably they would give the shot to someone they townread).

It doesn't seem anyone does believe Greeting though so either the power giver is non-town or (more likely) Greeting is just lying.

[imaginality]

And you assume scum/sk are not informed about the mimes(question for everybody).

I am assuming nothing

More dumb questions please?

Plz unvote this doesnt feel natural from bianco could be meuh/bianco. I hope you're town lol.

I agree with bianco that Phir's post here seems suspicious.

And I have to check imaginality also with the greeting vote.

The fact that enchant hasnt unvoted can be AI.

If I hammer I might not have to deal with all this shite anymore tho so. Maybe if Mo is mime scum banking on the mo hammer, bianco defs scummy not mimey maybe.

Phir is probably scum with Greeting. This second post feels to me like Phir saw the unvote the post before so could appear willing to hammer without actually having to.

I think both u and greeting have a possibility of both being town. im just not in the right headscarf to explain it

Well put on the correct headscarf, because you can't just say that without explaining why.

since no one spoke up about giving greeting that power, it is possible that scum has an ability that gives town a false power where the power, in this case a watcher ability, always produces a negative result, in this case a guilty result on the target, Meuh.

Tbh this is a possibility that should be considered in a bastard game. But I think there'd be more people voting Meuh if scum were actually using the power that way as they'd make the most of it (especially considering it nets them two mislims). So I don't think this is our reality.

I also agree that Greeting not wanting the power giver to out themselves is a sus mindset. I think there's more benefit in that getting clarified than getting to use it again.

ngl phir im interested in ur no vote, I see a potential benefit. talk to me

If we had a good sense of how many scum and mimes we have we could make scum take another shot or two before eliminating someone, to increase the chance of the mimes losing. Though I think more likely we end up worse off since scum probably aim for town if they know that's the plan. And probably have a better read than us on who the mimes are.

--
I don't think Drew and Whemestar push for the elimination to be between Meuh and Greeting today if either of them were Greeting's buddy. Or if they're scum and know Greeting's a mime. So I guess I have to consider them most likely town.

--

Town:
Meuh
Enchant
Bianco
Drew
Wheme

Scum:
Phir
Greeting

Mime:
GrandpaMo

[imaginality]

Do you think I defend a guiltied scumbuddy this hard when if we flip you and you're town Meuh dies tomorrow anyway?

[imaginality]

lol like a gopher from a hole

Gopher yourself

[imaginality]

I guess Wheme could maybe be a buddy of Greeting since Greeting looks a bit less likely to be limmed in a 1v1 than before. Drew doesn't look likely. But if Greeting is mime rather than scum Drew and Wheme are the prob scum in that scenario I think.

[imaginality]

I don't think so? Bar triple voter shenanigans

[imaginality]

I claim the vig shot. My role gave me the power to stop a lim and get a vig shot the following night.

When CSF flipped mime I realised that this is a useful power to kill rather than lim mimes.

I wanted to use it, was originally planning to use it on Greeting but after Meuh's self-hammer I knew she was anti-town so I went for her instead.

[imaginality]

Having this power is why I was fairly gung-ho yesterday about limming Greeting despite the mime risk. I knew we wouldn't lose the game.

[imaginality]

So well. Seems I was plenty wrong

Ngl it’s hilarious that mafia gave me the very power which I used to uncover them

Indeed. There's something quite mistyfying in scum giving out a Watcher power the same night that they were out to kill Demona, which was indeed a decent Watcher target.

You are a

mafia demon

. During the day, before the elimination, you must send me the name of a

player

, to offer them a

bargain

. You can update this as often as you like. They will be offered a power.

At night, you can discuss the nightkill in this PT. You win when the mafia are the only ones alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.

First of all why would they not give a power to themselves; and the word bargain implies that something is expected back. Greeting did sign a contract with a Demon after all

that is why I think greeting is not town but a minority faction , maybe mimes? but I doubt it but I think mafia was informed of greetings role or vice versa , they knew that greeting would be in good valuable use of them to have to target greeting because they maybe knew what there role was etc

If Greeting was mime he wouldn't have bothered claiming a guilty, surely? Just makes it harder for him to be limmed especially if as it seems it was a genuine guilty so it's not like he'd get limmed today (compared to fake claiming Guilty).

I definitely see Greeting as close to conftown now. It's not impossible he's scum but I'd think if so Meuh would have been the one to bus Greeting rather than vice versa.

[imaginality]

From the wording of Meuh's role, it looks like it. Though she could have targeted Phir.

[imaginality]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[imaginality]

VOTE: Unvote misremembered something. I'll reread later

[imaginality]

Votecount

Cat Scratch Fever (6): Greeting, imaginality, biancospino, GrandpaMo, Enchant, Cat Scratch Fever

Cat Scratch Fever was eliminated. She was a

mime

. It is now night 1, and will be so for 48 hours.

I'm gonna say the other mime (if two) is on the CSF wagon. So, GrandpaMo or Enchant.

Votecount

Meuh (5): Greeting, Doctor Drew, Whemestar, GrandpaMo, Meuh

with 9 alive it was 5 to eliminate. The day has ended.

I'm gonna say scum was not on this wagon. No need to bus and no way of knowing there wouldn't be a lim.

So Drew, WhemeStar, GrandpaMo and Greeting probably not scum. (And Greeting is highly likely town in any case for how the power was used.)

So scum is among: Enchant, biancospino
And mime is among: GrandpaMo, Enchant

That makes me lean towards a biancospino lim today.

The above assumptions might be wrong, but in the absence of anything more certain, I'll stick with them.

With Meuh having flipped scum it occurs to me bianco's 'experiment' of putting Greeting to E-1 was nicely placed to either get Greeting limmed instead of Meuh or else paint someone as scummy for not wanting to hammer Greeting (in the way he did with Phir).

I don't think Enchant unvotes Greeting in response to biancospino's E-1 vote if Enchant is scum. Though perhaps makes it a little more likely Enchant might be mime.

VOTE: biancospino

[imaginality]

I claim the vig shot. My role gave me the power to stop a lim and get a vig shot the following night.

When CSF flipped mime I realised that this is a useful power to kill rather than lim mimes.

I wanted to use it, was originally planning to use it on Greeting but after Meuh's self-hammer I knew she was anti-town so I went for her instead.

i just dont understand why u would stop the shot u would kill??? especially if they self hammered.

this is contradicting because u say u had a power to stop the lim right -- but meuh self hammered. at what point were u able to stop it?

To clarify, I could PM the mod at any time during the day before an elimination has occurred. Not in twilight. So I didn't know for sure when I PMed if it would be Meuh or Greeting (or even someone else but it seemed likely to be one of the two). And I felt like there was a decent chance of the power being useful.

Also I saw after CSF flipped that mime have a factional roleblock and I felt like it was better to use the power D2 because there was less chance I'd be roleblocked than if I tried to use it tonight.

I didn't mention the power during D2 because it seemed obvious that its main use is to punish mimes for going "ner ner, tricked y'alls" in twilight, which is what I thought Meuh was doing with her self-hammer.

[imaginality]

or (2) she though she was destined to die anyway and wanted to put up a little theatrical by dying the Night, thus allowing Imag to fakeclaim Vig uncounterclaimed, in which case Imag is red.

Green imag would pardon the execution of someone they though was a mime and kill them after that, makes full sense to me.

2 sounds very more likely to happen. i dont see scum why they wont take advantage of that opportunity . i mean i see u which u mean about green imag but them saying "was originally planning to use it on Greeting but after Meuh's self-hammer I knew she was anti-town so I went for her instead." just the way imag worded just sounds off idk man

If I were scum and Meuh is limmed, after I've been defending her as town during D2, I'd 100% vig Greeting. And Meuh definitely wouldn't have self-hammered to make it obvious she was anti-town

[imaginality]

As I mentioned it wasn't clear Meuh was going to be the lim when I told the mod. And I thought there was a good chance Greeting was mime or mafia hence me not being scared of a Greeting 'lim'.

Shooting Meuh was best once she self-hammered. Yes more likely mafia than mime but either way guaranteed anti-town

[imaginality]

@GrandpaMo what do you think of my theory of a biancospino mafia, Enchant mime world?

[imaginality]

Probably time to massclaim I think?

[imaginality]

VOTE: Enchant

Sticking with my theory.
If mafia bussed, we still have a chance if it's 7-2-2 setup. If they kill mime it's 3-1-0 tomorrow. If they kill town it's 2-1-1 but mime's can't win by siding with mafia to lim town so we should still get a chance to lim mafia.

If it's a 7-1-3 setup with 3 mimes then lol the mod trolled us.

[imaginality]

Oh hey, if the reason for the NK is mime roleblocking mafia, I know mime wouldn't wanna say so. But if we

all

say who we hypothetically roleblocked, then if mime is NKed we know who scum is. (Assuming mime was truthful but presumably mime would be glad to be truthful here, given that in that scenario, scum shot them. And if they're not shot, we learn nothing from it.)

If I were mime, I roleblocked Doctor Drew last night.

[imaginality]

Oh wait, it would let scum narrow down who mime is if mime is truthful.

So, we still proceed with this, but mime should lie. Harder for scum to narrow down anything this way round, while if mime is NKed it gives us an inno.

If I were mime, I roleblocked Enchant.

[imaginality]

Is there ever a bus guilty

yea thats whats the thing that is holding me back from voting enchant

It was Greeting not Enchant who guiltied Meuh

[imaginality]

Oh maybe I misunderstood Whemestar's question

[imaginality]

Thanks for modding, mykonian!

I think this was my first game where I've ever had a vig shot, thanks for making it an easy one Meuh! You had me fooled right up til your selfhammer.