Mini Normal 2305 | GAME OVER

[Roden]

I'm kind of surprised that no one is concerned about this read though:

Kinda want to town lock Tweet even though it feels a bit silly to do this early. I get the feeling she wanted to roll town and was relieved when she opened her role PM. Based off of what I'm hearing of the last mini, it might be because of that?

Morning Tweet

has done nothing even remotely towny in this game and you want to townlock her,

Roden

?

Yes, and I explain why in my post.

[Roden]

Scheming is an integral part of how you play this game. You have an idea. You plan and act. You execute.
Check and point: I had an idea that Roden might be bullshitting his read on me. I ask him questions to soften him up. I engage him and I pounce on him!

Roden was bullshitting when he made the townread!

You have a wildly different idea of scheming to me because this is just called having a thought process

[humaneatingmonkey]

framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

even now, roden? you don't feel particularly framed?

[Roden]

That exchange feels tvs

How confident are you on this read

[OopsieDaisy]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

That's not what scheming is? That's just poking and prodding. If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

Okay. Do you have confidence in spotting these underlying schemes before they come to fruition then? Because otherwise I don't understand how your townread of HEM has any basis.

[Elements]

That exchange feels tvs

How confident are you on this read

more likely one of you is scum than not

[Roden]

framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

even now, roden? you don't feel particularly framed?

Of course I do now, but I know it's because you reached a conclusion and didn't think it through

I think it's pretty shitty play if you're scum because I don't think you make it past Day 2 if you go out of your way to mis-elim me, and I'm pretty sure scum!you would know that as well

[humaneatingmonkey]

I don't know Roden. I'm particularly good as scum. I'm a fucking son of a bitch liar who lies a lot. Takutai says I'm suave.

[OopsieDaisy]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

That's not what scheming is? That's just poking and prodding. If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

Okay. Do you have confidence in spotting these underlying schemes before they come to fruition then? Because otherwise I don't understand how your townread of HEM has any basis.

Reread this message and realised you implied you can spot it in the previous message, you can ignore this question.

[humaneatingmonkey]

If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish this. No uninformed person with healthy paranoia can determine this. Unless Roden knows I'm town, there's no way he would be confident to claim that I have not been doing this.

[Roden]

Yes, Roden, repeat yourself, because that's what I'm asking you to do.

VOTE: Roden

I call bullshit on your read on me. There's no way for you to judge that I'm town based on the posts that you say you judged me from.

Because how can you? How can you judge from page 12, post 291, day 1, on any of my posts that I'm not "scheming" in this game? You can't.

Yea I mean the funny thing is I think there's evidence in this game already that HEM *is* scheming. Look at how the interaction with HEM & I went where he asked me a question to divert my attention away from Tweet's posts, and then called me out for focusing on that question and not the Tweet posts. That felt SO much like scheming to me.

What I don't understand is how Roden seems to have completely missed that, unless Roden is looking for longer term scheming in which case how are you even meant to find that at this point in the game?

That's not what scheming is? That's just poking and prodding. If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you. Neither of those things happened.

Okay. Do you have confidence in spotting these underlying schemes before they come to fruition then? Because otherwise I don't understand how your townread of HEM has any basis.

I do, actually.

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

[Roden]

If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish this. No uninformed person with healthy paranoia can determine this. Unless Roden knows I'm town, there's no way he would be confident to claim that I have not been doing this.

I literally have done this in the past and correctly booted you Day 1 for it lol

Like are you just arguing town!me can't town read you correctly?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I am arguing that the reason you town read me does not exist and is made up. I can concede that you can town read me correctly if it's warranted. But "HEM isn't scheming this game, guys" isn't it.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

These are just links to my games. Literally the town game demonstrates that there's no significant difference between my games in which you can determine that "HEM is scheming" or "HEM isn't scheming". Both is identical and is not the reason why I got caught in PYP. I got caught in PYP because Aristeia, and not you, is well-versed at catching me because she neutralizes the fake emotions I give out when I am scum.

[Roden]

I am arguing that the reason you town read me does not exist and is made up. I can concede that you can town read me correctly if it's warranted. But "HEM isn't scheming this game, guys" isn't it.

Good thing that wasn't the sole thing I said about you then, I guess?

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

These are just links to my games. Literally the town game demonstrates that there's no significant difference between my games in which you can determine that "HEM is scheming" or "HEM isn't scheming". Both is identical and is not the reason why I got caught in PYP. I got caught in PYP because Aristeia, and not you, is well-versed at catching me because she neutralizes the fake emotions I give out when I am scum.

Keep scrolling down my dude

[humaneatingmonkey]

HEM also feels very town. He's pretty straightforward and direct as either alignment, but

I notice he likes to scheme a lot more as scum, and I haven't seen any of that so far.

More so just poking and prodding to get people to post complete thoughts and follow ups.

It's the main thing. The scum and town game you cited demonstrates that I can poke and prod just fine as both alignments.

==

Keep scrolling down my dude

Just show us if you really want to demonstrate that in this game, it's evident that "I am not scheming" and in fact "scheming" is my main scum tell (which your links can't even demonstrate, as scheming is present in all three games).

[clidd]

What in the world is going on.

[clidd]

I'm still busy but should be free in a few hours.

[OopsieDaisy]

I do, actually.

Scum!HEM game where I started picking up on what he was doing a little too late.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89172&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Scum!HEM game where I caught what he was doing very early on.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89536&user_se ... B%5D=35782

And for good measure, town!HEM game where there was nothing to catch, but is a good showcase of our typical TvT interactions.
viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=89510&user_se ... B%5D=35782

Thanks a lot for these links Roden, it's helped inform my read a lot

The biggest thing I got out of these games is the sheer difference in how T/T Roden/HEM interact, and how they interact when one of them is scum. In the first two games they're very confrontational with each other and are desperate to discredit the other with their own points. In the final game, they're just chilling gamesolving together holding hands and frolicking through the fields.

Obvs I have to keep in mind these are only examples of HEM being scum in the dynamic, not Roden, but the difference is stark and the interactions between the two right now scream to me that this isn't T/T if these examples are trustworthy interpretations.

Now as to who is scum, ehhhh that's hard to call because I don't have a Roden scum/HEM town example to look at. Roden is someone who I thought came in with a read that had no basis, but by providing his explanations and straight up bringing receipts, it's clear Roden cares a lot about defending his position and I'm seeing where his confidence on HEM is coming from. If this was simply a pressure wagon, I'd be satisfied at this point and hop off.

HEM, on the other hand, was the player who went on the aggressive at Roden first, and kicked off the dynamic that makes me think this isn't TvT. Since then he's sunk his teeth in and not let go. These examples make HEM look scummy in this game with the context of these examples, but my issue is that these examples are provided by the other player in the pairing, and the person who I think is scum if HEM is town, so I'm not sure how much weight I really should be giving them?

I'm gonna do this and see what happens

UNVOTE: Roden
VOTE: HEM

[Elements]

HEM and Roden are in a 1v1 that's taken over the day and are now the only viable lim options or this will continue in future days until it's resolved

[OopsieDaisy]

Basically TL:DR is that I'm starting to feel better about the Roden slot due to some strong examples coming in and clarification on reads that has shown that a lot of this 1v1 is based on a miscommunication on what the word scheming means to different players in the game, but those examples show that this is likely TvS based on what I've read, so I'm now moving to voting HEM.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Roden is someone who I thought came in with a read that had no basis, but by providing his explanations and straight up bringing receipts, it's clear Roden cares a lot about defending his position and I'm seeing where his confidence on HEM is coming from.

Tell me: Do you think that my point against Roden has been addressed? Do you also think that scum!Roden would not care about defending his position?
In these games, was it Roden's ability to judge whether or not I have been scheming that made him believe I was scum/town?

Since then he's sunk his teeth in and not let go.

And I will continue to do so until my original point has been addressed -- which it hasn't.

[humaneatingmonkey]

based on a miscommunication on what the word scheming means to different players in the game

Okay. Let's use Roden's own definition of scheming. Do you think he would be able to distinguish it?

If he was scheming if would be looking for multiple different angles to either manipulate you into voting how he wants, or framing what you did in a certain way so that people would vote you.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish this. No uninformed person with healthy paranoia can determine this. Unless Roden knows I'm town, there's no way he would be confident to claim that I have not been doing this.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I am a very loud voice with a pushy playstyle and I am obviously crafty. It's not possible to confidently say that I am not scheming - even by Roden's definition. Especially when I have been confident enough to push someone.

If you want to read a town game, check out the town game Roden linked where I was eliminated at Day 2. It is not, in fact, kumabaya holding hands. It was murderous lust for the monkey.

[humaneatingmonkey]

HEM if you're town this loss is legit your fault. You backed off of nearly every push, OMGUS'd everyone who even slightly suspected you, lied about your potions, and decided to death tunnel me Day 1 even after I tried to give you a chance to prove that you're town and work together to elim a common scum read.

For example: Does this look like kumbaya holding hands to you?