Pokemon Battles 2 - Attack on Giratina [GAME OVER]

[ItalianoVD]

If the vig or whatever has any shots or whatever it is you have left you need to take out the one who isn’t limmed here. So if Black is limmed then take me out. If I’m limmed take out Black. Since no one wants to go on DGB, that will have to work itself out like Not_Mafia unfortunately. I wish it would be sooner rather than later but nah. Ciao.

[ItalianoVD]

To clarify I think Black flips red as well and I think her long post is cap and I don’t see town!Black being this unsure of herself and that bent out of shape of getting scumread. This is 98% scum!Black. I’ll give you 2% to be town, but that’s all.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: Italiano

Nah

You're proving my point, you're frustrated scum.

I happen know you're going after a townie, another strike against you.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Italiano

Nah

You're proving my point, you're frustrated scum.

I happen know you're going after a townie, another strike against you.

Expand?

[Meuh]

The thing with IVD is I townread his slot for most of the game. I even liked what he was posting today at first. It felt analytical and in depth, like he was really thinking about the game on deeper level. Then his progression from having me as a top TR to voting for what I consider to be very weak reasons felt really fabricated, like he didn't believe what he was saying but he was doing it anyway. I recognize that part of me not liking this is because I don't like being scumread when I'm town, and I feel even worse about it when the reasoning doesn't match up. In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me. My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here. And now I'm in danger of being limmed and his wagon is stacked right next to mine, which gives me even more incentive to vote for him, which taints my read even more. I know I'm town and I know he could be scum, even if I'm not fully convinced of it. My other scumreads are just as weak as my read on IVD so I don't feel great about anywhere I push. And yeah, I could do more research and try to strengthen my stance here and my position in the game, but I'm just checked out. I'm not in a good emotional state atm and the game isn't helping. I don't want to replace and I don't really want to sink my teeth in and do more, so I'm just here, defending myself, and pushing stuff that isn't me

Doesn't help that this post, the longest one in those pages, is very easy to see from scum!Black mad at being scumread for reasons she sees as bad.

I've not yet played a completed scum game with Black, but I have read a couple of games and I think she stays pretty calm cool and collected as scum. I have played with her when she's town and I can say that I've seen real emotions and frustrations there. I understand folks saying they don't want to fall for AtE and that's fair enough, I'm just feeling a town vibe here.

Dunno, I don't have experience what scum!Black. The thing is that scum have a habit of taking genuine emotion (especially frustration as it's the most universal) and slightly altering the looks of it so it seems town indicative. If I look at the root of Black's frustration not only can I see that frustration existing for a scum player but I think that's more likely than it coming from a town player which makes me feel kinda meh. No, self-preservation isn't inherently scummy nor is being particularly focused on people's reads on you (I've done both this game) but the way it's all packaged with the frustration and the way Black's positioning herself just feels really bad and fills me with dread, I don't think I can ever comfortably let Black live to the endgame.

[Flavor Leaf]

Probably not gonna take meta on Black too seriously.

I’ve never played with scumThem so they haven’t felt the wrath of a thorny Flavor in their side.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not too thorny, I’m like a cactus you put in your room, and accidentally put a little too close to where you keep picking up your water

[Merlyn]

would you say that makes you a bit a of a prick, FL? I'm so funny

[Flavor Leaf]

would you say that makes you a bit a of a prick, FL? I'm so funny

just a small one

[Merlyn]

The thing with IVD is I townread his slot for most of the game. I even liked what he was posting today at first. It felt analytical and in depth, like he was really thinking about the game on deeper level. Then his progression from having me as a top TR to voting for what I consider to be very weak reasons felt really fabricated, like he didn't believe what he was saying but he was doing it anyway. I recognize that part of me not liking this is because I don't like being scumread when I'm town, and I feel even worse about it when the reasoning doesn't match up. In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me. My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here. And now I'm in danger of being limmed and his wagon is stacked right next to mine, which gives me even more incentive to vote for him, which taints my read even more. I know I'm town and I know he could be scum, even if I'm not fully convinced of it. My other scumreads are just as weak as my read on IVD so I don't feel great about anywhere I push. And yeah, I could do more research and try to strengthen my stance here and my position in the game, but I'm just checked out. I'm not in a good emotional state atm and the game isn't helping. I don't want to replace and I don't really want to sink my teeth in and do more, so I'm just here, defending myself, and pushing stuff that isn't me

Doesn't help that this post, the longest one in those pages, is very easy to see from scum!Black mad at being scumread for reasons she sees as bad.

I've not yet played a completed scum game with Black, but I have read a couple of games and I think she stays pretty calm cool and collected as scum. I have played with her when she's town and I can say that I've seen real emotions and frustrations there. I understand folks saying they don't want to fall for AtE and that's fair enough, I'm just feeling a town vibe here.

Dunno, I don't have experience what scum!Black. The thing is that scum have a habit of taking genuine emotion (especially frustration as it's the most universal) and slightly altering the looks of it so it seems town indicative. If I look at the root of Black's frustration not only can I see that frustration existing for a scum player but I think that's more likely than it coming from a town player which makes me feel kinda meh. No, self-preservation isn't inherently scummy nor is being particularly focused on people's reads on you (I've done both this game) but the way it's all packaged with the frustration and the way Black's positioning herself just feels really bad and fills me with dread, I don't think I can ever comfortably let Black live to the endgame.

I get it, I don't know that I really have anything to back my vibes up on her. Just keep re-reading the paragraph and it stinks of honesty to me. I don't even know that it matters, because if Black doesn't plan to do more as she says than things will just stay like this.

[Merlyn]

FL, what is your take on Italiano?

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

The thing with IVD is I townread his slot for most of the game. I even liked what he was posting today at first. It felt analytical and in depth, like he was really thinking about the game on deeper level. Then his progression from having me as a top TR to voting for what I consider to be very weak reasons felt really fabricated, like he didn't believe what he was saying but he was doing it anyway. I recognize that part of me not liking this is because I don't like being scumread when I'm town, and I feel even worse about it when the reasoning doesn't match up. In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me. My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here. And now I'm in danger of being limmed and his wagon is stacked right next to mine, which gives me even more incentive to vote for him, which taints my read even more. I know I'm town and I know he could be scum, even if I'm not fully convinced of it. My other scumreads are just as weak as my read on IVD so I don't feel great about anywhere I push. And yeah, I could do more research and try to strengthen my stance here and my position in the game, but I'm just checked out. I'm not in a good emotional state atm and the game isn't helping. I don't want to replace and I don't really want to sink my teeth in and do more, so I'm just here, defending myself, and pushing stuff that isn't me

Doesn't help that this post, the longest one in those pages, is very easy to see from scum!Black mad at being scumread for reasons she sees as bad.

I've not yet played a completed scum game with Black, but I have read a couple of games and I think she stays pretty calm cool and collected as scum. I have played with her when she's town and I can say that I've seen real emotions and frustrations there. I understand folks saying they don't want to fall for AtE and that's fair enough, I'm just feeling a town vibe here.

Dunno, I don't have experience what scum!Black. The thing is that scum have a habit of taking genuine emotion (especially frustration as it's the most universal) and slightly altering the looks of it so it seems town indicative. If I look at the root of Black's frustration not only can I see that frustration existing for a scum player but I think that's more likely than it coming from a town player which makes me feel kinda meh. No, self-preservation isn't inherently scummy nor is being particularly focused on people's reads on you (I've done both this game) but the way it's all packaged with the frustration and the way Black's positioning herself just feels really bad and fills me with dread, I don't think I can ever comfortably let Black live to the endgame.

I get it, I don't know that I really have anything to back my vibes up on her. Just keep re-reading the paragraph and it stinks of honesty to me. I don't even know that it matters, because if Black doesn't plan to do more as she says than things will just stay like this.

The thing is that I do think that like 90% of that post is honest, but it's also things that Black can think as scum either laid out as such or slightly modified to fit a towny mindset.

"I even liked what he was posting today at first. It felt analytical and in depth, like he was really thinking about the game on deeper level."

- Black thinks this genuinely, doesn't indicate alignment

"Then his progression from having me as a top TR to voting for what I consider to be very weak reasons felt really fabricated, like he didn't believe what he was saying but he was doing it anyway. I recognize that part of me not liking this is because I don't like being scumread when I'm town, and I feel even worse about it when the reasoning doesn't match up."

- Black genuinely thinks IVD's reasoning here sucks, if scum she just had to make the leap of "IVD's scumread on me is bad" -> "the read is fabricated and he's scum" which isn't hard to do. Especially since she has an incentive to put pressure on IVD. The acknowledgement of her town meta here I kinda like and I think her uncertainty about the read looks good, that's like the one segment of the post I do like.

"In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me. My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here."

- Black thinks her gameplay warranted a townread and that IVD's reasoning for such is good, she was frustrated that the read was dropped. I dislike the second segment where she thinks IVD's reconsideration can come from a townie but she dislikes the logic, it still hinges on this idea that Black thinks she's played in a way deserving of a townread and her real issue is with IVD's change in logic and positioning, rather than him actually feeling like town or scum. Never was it asked if IVD is actually solving, that's my biggest bother here. There's the "IVD's scumread on me is bad" -> "the read is fabricated and he's scum" thought process as I pointed out but no real sign of that reconsideration in the middle? She does mention a lack of confidence in the read later but even then it stays murky what Black's thinking of IVD beyond the logic sucking. Idk I don't think I'm outlining this perfectly but this bothers me a bunch. Her stance here doesn't feel complete. All of these thoughts are paired with the mention of struggling with her read which scum can just throw in there.

"And now I'm in danger of being limmed and his wagon is stacked right next to mine, which gives me even more incentive to vote for him, which taints my read even more."

- I mean true but once again this is NAI

"I know I'm town and I know he could be scum, even if I'm not fully convinced of it. My other scumreads are just as weak as my read on IVD so I don't feel great about anywhere I push."

- I feel like Black was confidently pushing scumreads not too long ago but she also seems to more recently have clicked less with the game and losing confidence in reads is fairly reasonable. I've also been much less confident in my scumreads as of late. This bit also serves as good AtE and makes her more flexible if the IVD wagon dies down though which makes it a lot more meh. It also bothers me though cause while Black's defeated and low confidence in posts like these, a lot of her other posting is unaffected and stays as confident as it was before, which makes me think it's being tactically employed? Like why is this shift in tone mostly applicable when Black's making these sorts of posts but her interactions with others keep the same energy they possessed beforehand?

"And yeah, I could do more research and try to strengthen my stance here and my position in the game, but I'm just checked out. I'm not in a good emotional state atm and the game isn't helping. I don't want to replace and I don't really want to sink my teeth in and do more, so I'm just here, defending myself, and pushing stuff that isn't me"

- Once again, genuine, but also comes from scum!Black here.

Idk Black's post is one of these posts made to outline thought processes to make yourself easier to read which I also love making, but when I look at it, not only isn't there much in terms of uniquely townie thought processes but I can trace almost all of these ideas and feelings back to the way scum!Black would view the game. Paired with her positioning in the last few pages that has me nervous and I really don't feel good about Black here.

[biancospino]

VOTE: Italiano

Nah

You're proving my point, you're frustrated scum.

I happen know you're going after a townie, another strike against you.

If you happen to

know

that someone is a townie, it would be for everyone's benefit if you would be crystal clear about it.

Now, Italiano did propose that we should just remove both his and Black's slot for the game in some way or another. I don't think that is a deal scum would want to take, but wine and all that. We should still take up on the offer I think.

In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me. My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here.

I agree with Meuth that this part looks bad. There are vibes to it like she's saying, she was clearly playing a good towngame and won ivd over, so she's salty about losing that victory

[Black]

I agree with Meuth that this part looks bad. There are vibes to it like she's saying, she was clearly playing a good towngame and won ivd over, so she's salty about losing that victory

It isn't scummy to be frustrated that someone is no longer correct about me. I don't like the way you are positioning around limming both me and IVD, especially after saying you don't think IVD is scum

[biancospino]

I did say, and I quote, "I don't think that is a deal scum would want to take"; because it's probably not optimal play at all.
Most notably, I did not say that it's not a deal scum ever propose to make, or that it makes IVD somehow townlocked

[Black]

Italiano is flailing a bit here

Site was down for me like all day.

So yeah, nothing that DGB or Black has said in the last several pages has deterred me in anyway. I will still vote both of them.

I mean if everyone claims, says they’re town, and starts pulling the heart strings everytime they start getting run up then we will never lim anybody. We gotta stop falling for this ate.

You wanna lim me because you think this is “scummy”, go ahead. I’ve said pretty much all I’m gonna say and I’m pretty happy at what I’ve contributed,

but I’m not budging off either of those two because now I’m pretty confident they are both scum, especially Black.

Let’s rally this back and actually lim scum. Don’t fall for these water works.

But to honest, I’m not frustrated at all.

I’m pretty confident actually that we’ll get a red flip with you. Black is about 50/50

, but everyone is happy you townread them and they think there’s no info from your flip. I disagree. This will be the hill I die on.

VOTE: DGB

To clarify I think Black flips red as well and I think her long post is cap and I don’t see town!Black being this unsure of herself and that bent out of shape of getting scumread.

This is 98% scum!Black

. I’ll give you 2% to be town, but that’s all.

Italiano goes from being pretty confident that I'm scum, to thinking my alignment is a coinflip, to then saying he's 98% sure I'm scum. To me this indicates Italiano can't get his fake read straight in his head. This feels like a perspective slip

[Black]

I did say, and I quote, "I don't think that is a deal scum would want to take"; because it's probably not optimal play at all.
Most notably, I did not say that it's not a deal scum ever propose to make, or that it makes IVD somehow townlocked

Who are your top scumreads?

[biancospino]

As should be quite clear, I'm pretty confident there is >=1 scum in {you, ivd, maybe
DGb}

[Black]

As should be quite clear, I'm pretty confident there is >=1 scum in {you, ivd, maybe
DGb}

Talk to me about why you think IVD is scum

[Black]

Meuh dissecting a post of mine just to prove to Merlyn that I could be scum feels really weird, like she sees the pressure on me deflating and she has to start actually doing something to get it back. 7011 is basically Meuh applying a scum perspective to everything I wrote, which isn't hard to do when you're trying to make someone look bad. What I don't like is she seems to be agreeing with like 3 different things and saying she's done them this game too, but then saying scum could also do them. Her motivation here doesn't seem pure. She wants to paint everything I say in a negative light, and she's been doing it literally the entire game. I think she's just scum here

[Black]

I happen know you're going after a townie, another strike against you.

???

[Save The Dragons]

i think black is just town here

[ItalianoVD]

The thing with IVD is I townread his slot for most of the game. I even liked what he was posting today at first. It felt analytical and in depth, like he was really thinking about the game on deeper level.

Which posts? I posted a bunch of stuff to start the day. Which ones in particular? Why the vague generalization? Black is a live poster so if she thought my posts were good she would have said so live as it as happening. She didn’t. The very first thing she said today was that she didn’t like that FL/Meuh were pushing Kitty/DGB when it was

me

who was pushing the slot. Meuh even said she wouldn’t have gone there. If the Kitty/DGB posting constitutes as her “liking my posts” then nah this is just cap.

Then his progression from having me as a top TR to voting for what I consider to be very weak reasons felt really fabricated, like he didn't believe what he was saying but he was doing it anyway.

The very first thing you posted was shade and inaccurate information on FL/Meuh and the weird angle you took on Chandra. I told you and explained in detail why I didn’t like it. I couldn’t care less if I was townreading you, those points you made were so off and weird that I had to say something about it. I wasn’t not gonna say something or lie and say it as okay when it wasn’t.

I recognize that part of me not liking this is because I don't like being scumread when I'm town, and I feel even worse about it when the reasoning doesn't match up.

No one likes being scumread regardless of alignment. I don’t believe town!you is this bent out of shape over a scumread, especially when said scumreads are

in fact

justified and reasonable. Multiple people have given perfectly reasonable reasons to scumread you and for some reason this game you are appalled at the thought of it and you were absolutely enthralled when people townread you.

In my eyes IVD was correct about me when he townread me, so him eventually dropping that TR for silly reasons was frustrating to me.

Sounds like caught for the wrong reasons. Or caught for the right reasons. Either way the frustration is not fabricated.

My issue is that I can see IVD having a change of heart about me as town but I don't think the reasons he applied to it make sense, so I'm struggling with my read here.

Why and how would you struggle with a read on someone you feel fabricated reasons to scumread you? This doesn’t track. Again caught for the wrong reasons.

And now I'm in danger of being limmed and his wagon is stacked right next to mine, which gives me even more incentive to vote for him, which taints my read even more.

Survivalism is nai and I really despise when people say it’s scummy. There is nothing wrong with wanting to survive as either alignment. Yes as scum there is more of a sense of urgency being so small in number, but it is not scummy for players wanting to survive. The key here is deducing “why” they want to survive. Do they want to provide town with more information that helps them solve or do they just want to survive so that it’s easier for their faction to win?

I won’t say anything more here as y’all have to be the judge on what makes more sense given Black’s positioning in this game as a whole.

I know I'm town and I know he could be scum, even if I'm not fully convinced of it.

Again I think this is cap. If you say you know you’re town and you say you know I could be scum why aren’t you or wouldn’t you be convinced? It seems like you are trying to leave a space open for me to townread you like almost if you try to come at me fully you know you wouldn’t be good.

My other scumreads are just as weak as my read on IVD so I don't feel great about anywhere I push.

Interestingly enough I’ve been ISOing Black and aside from her jump onto SirCakez early game she hasn’t had any other scumread that you can actually pinpoint.

And yeah, I could do more research and try to strengthen my stance here and my position in the game

The fact is she can’t. Her positioning in this game is the very reason she is getting scumread and getting votes imo. You have had time to get your footing and you yourself said you do and get better as the game progresses. I even mentioned that this is no longer a large game given you time to truly get more of a hold on the game and yet nothing.

I didn’t

have

to respond to this because I think Meuh said everything I would have said perfectly well, but I still wanted to give my thoughts on it because as I said I thought the post was cap.

All in all Black is scum and hasn’t been able to find her footing in this game because of it. I truly believe town!Black, although overwhelmed and playing a large would have been trying to solve and would have had some direction, even in her uncertainties, I don’t find that here.

[ItalianoVD]

The one quote that was definitely not cap was this.

but I'm just checked out. I'm not in a good emotional state atm and the game isn't helping. I don't want to replace and I don't really want to sink my teeth in and do more, so I'm just here, defending myself, and pushing stuff that isn't me

Again this game is unimportant when it comes to your health. Like I did and like I suggested to Chandra take some time off and refresh, rest, and get in a better head space. I think it’s important to step away. Nothing is worth your health.

[ItalianoVD]

Now, Italiano did propose that we should just remove both his and Black's slot for the game in some way or another. I don't think that is a deal scum would want to take, but wine and all that. We should still take up on the offer I think.

I did and meant every word of it.