Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Save The Dragons]

Bloodhound and cop are different

Town vs not town should mean cult and godfathers caught too, no?

[Rautherdir]

Godfathers investigate as town. Cult investigates as not town.

[Radical Rat]

Bloodhound is different from Cop though.

Bloodhound returns Town/Not Town, while Cop returns Mafia/Not Mafia

[usesPython]

Bloodhound and cop are different

Town vs not town should mean cult and godfathers caught too, no?

No it's identical to Cop because Cop also gives results as "Town" or "Not Town"

[Radical Rat]

Bloodhound and cop are different

Town vs not town should mean cult and godfathers caught too, no?

No it's identical to Cop because Cop also gives results as "Town" or "Not Town"

Not according to the OP.

[usesPython]

You sure?

The standard, Normal, variation of a Cop can investigate one player each Night; the target is not informed of the investigation. This Cop variant will return results of the form "Town" or "Not Town" (regardless of whether it is named "Cop" or "Seer"; both names are acceptable in a Normal)

[usesPython]

interference from a deceptive role is the only way in which the standard variant of a Cop can produce incorrect or misleading results.

[Radical Rat]

Well, technically not OP, but one of the setup posts. I'm on mobile and cannot quote the specific section, but the Nightmare awards specify that Cop returns Horrible Dreams or Not Horrible Dreams, which is the Mafia flavor

[usesPython]

Well, technically not OP, but one of the setup posts. I'm on mobile and cannot quote the specific section, but the Nightmare awards specify that Cop returns Horrible Dreams or Not Horrible Dreams, which is the Mafia flavor

Sure but we're talking about the last game which had a Normal Cop that was called a Bloodhound and using that to conclude that it's possible KKFC is a Normal Alien that's called a Marshall

[usesPython]

The Nightmare Cop invention is explicitly non-normal btw since it would need to return "Good Dream"/"Not Good Dream" results to be normal

[Radical Rat]

Except that in Multiball with non-Mafia/Werewolf factions, Cop/Bloodhound is a meaningful distinction to make. Bloodhound is also an established role with precedent.

Marshall/Alien wouldn't be unless it was to distinguish from an Alien scumteam, which.... maybe??? But we have no reason to believe that, and Marshall, as described here, has no precedent that I can find. The only thing keeping me believing it is the implausibility of it as a lie

[Rautherdir]

With the claims and flips we've seen so far, and assuming 4 group+a recruitable traitor scum, night 2 there is a potential for 5 scum in pt, four masons, plus three or four people from KKFC's role (which admittedly can overlap with the previous groups) for a potential total of 10-13 players in PTs, with up to 17 total people alive if no night kills. Add a cult on top of that and you easily get potentially every living player in a PT on night two, which invalidates TAs completely. And I'm not even factoring in the Nightmare.

You're forgetting that it forces people to claim they're in a PT and also that a no PT result is basically the greenest check you can get this game

It's also a difference of potentially 3-7 players that can give that result night two without a cult or about 0-3 players with a negative TA result with a cult. Out of ~15 targets.

[usesPython]

Except that in Multiball with non-Mafia/Werewolf factions, Cop/Bloodhound is a meaningful distinction to make.

If we're talking Normal Cop then there is no distinction: Normal Cop returns Town/Not Town, Bloodhound returns Town/Not Town. They're completely identical

[usesPython]

With the claims and flips we've seen so far, and assuming 4 group+a recruitable traitor scum, night 2 there is a potential for 5 scum in pt, four masons, plus three or four people from KKFC's role (which admittedly can overlap with the previous groups) for a potential total of 10-13 players in PTs, with up to 17 total people alive if no night kills. Add a cult on top of that and you easily get potentially every living player in a PT on night two, which invalidates TAs completely. And I'm not even factoring in the Nightmare.

You're forgetting that it forces people to claim they're in a PT and also that a no PT result is basically the greenest check you can get this game

It's also a difference of potentially 3-7 players that can give that result night two without a cult or about 0-3 players with a negative TA result with a cult. Out of ~15 targets.

You're forgetting that ~5 people N1 literally have to treat a TA check as either a guilty or a way to fake messenger since unlike Mason/Neighbors they can't just claim to be in a PT without instantly dying

[KatyKimFanClub]

Exactly, claiming Mason or Neighbor in a game that already has Masons or Neighbors won't work.

[Rautherdir]

Normal games also usually aren't multiball I'm pretty sure, which makes mafia or ww/not mafia or ww results and town/not town results identical in effect. (Except for SK games)

[Rautherdir]

With the claims and flips we've seen so far, and assuming 4 group+a recruitable traitor scum, night 2 there is a potential for 5 scum in pt, four masons, plus three or four people from KKFC's role (which admittedly can overlap with the previous groups) for a potential total of 10-13 players in PTs, with up to 17 total people alive if no night kills. Add a cult on top of that and you easily get potentially every living player in a PT on night two, which invalidates TAs completely. And I'm not even factoring in the Nightmare.

You're forgetting that it forces people to claim they're in a PT and also that a no PT result is basically the greenest check you can get this game

It's also a difference of potentially 3-7 players that can give that result night two without a cult or about 0-3 players with a negative TA result with a cult. Out of ~15 targets.

You're forgetting that ~5 people N1 literally have to treat a TA check as either a guilty or a way to fake messenger since unlike Mason/Neighbors they can't just claim to be in a PT without instantly dying

This is admittedly something I hadn't considered.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, but this isn't a Normal game, and in non-Normal games the distinction matters. There is a functional difference in this setup, and the original version, between a Cop and a Bloodhound.

As far as we can tell though, there is no functional difference between Alien/Marshall, and Marshall would be an original role name with no prior usage (for this ability anyway) on MS or any of the other sites/games I checked, which is a bizarre choice for what's supposed to be the disambiguation part of the role.

[Rautherdir]

Exactly, claiming Mason or Neighbor in a game that already has Masons or Neighbors won't work.

Masons, sure. Neighbors is somewhat dangerous but not as counter-claimable. Assuming scum refuses to claim partners.

[Radical Rat]

No, the amount of TA power is super weird here because not only is having a PT not a guilty, not having one also isn't a clear because Traitor exists.

[usesPython]

Normal games also usually aren't multiball I'm pretty sure, which makes mafia or ww/not mafia or ww results and town/not town results identical in effect. (Except for SK games)

Doesn't matter, Normal Cop has rules to handle multiball anyways

This Cop variant will return results of the form "Town" or "Not Town" (regardless of whether it is named "Cop" or "Seer"; both names are acceptable in a Normal); it cannot distinguish between players who belong to different anti-town and third-party factions.

[Rautherdir]

Anyways. Outside of Normals cops are usually mafia/not mafia I think.

[Rautherdir]

There is in fact a difference between Normal and normal.

[Morning Tweet]

- usesPython, Radical Rat, Abnegation, Ranger, Save the Dragons, Katy, DragonEater

are reasonably town then 7/13

Camel is my personal picck probably town



Sheep is a messenger neighbourized/aliened twice by Katy .... I believe him i mean he's probably town


Ircher, Rauth, Flea are all question marks (Although Flea has already hinted)

So bar Katy or someone else having culted halfo f us and we're being deceived into a false sense of security, this looks pretty good

I did?

"actions speak louder than words" or sum ish implied to me you were being quiet because your role speaks for itself

[Morning Tweet]

Is the continuation of your logic here that Ircher left that off his roleclaim because it's basically a scumclaim in a game with this many tony investigatives?

More or less it seems like Ircher having a deflector passive that protects him from things like investigatives would be really intuitive to me as the answer

However I'm sure there are other things it could be.. but a redirect on Abneg or bus drive makes no sense unless scum can just toss those out