Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE]

fonz,

teach me how to win friends and influence ppl k?

[M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE]

I'm not being funny, by page four i wanted to kill all of you who play on that werewolf site in real life. Personal insults and pointless spamming make the game less fun.

QF get a grip on reality u fucking psycho.[/quote]

[StrangerCoug]

fonz,

teach me how to win friends and influence ppl k?

One, he doesn't have to. Two, nobody likes fluff posts.

[darkdude]

Vote Count for Day 1

There are 20 Alive, so 11 to Lynch

omg_im_innocent_wtf [4] (oEJo, well-named, StrangerCoug, SiestaGuru, )

matrix [2] (omg_im_innocent_wtf, The Fonz, )
StrangerCoug [2] (Caboose, zhaorx, )
ScottHoward [1] (gusmahler, )
M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE [1] (Mada, )
The Fonz [1] (Hitch, )
well-named [1] (ScottHoward, )
zhaorx [0] ()
The Central Scrutinizer [0] ()
Caboose [0] ()
Sun Tzu [0] ()
Stef [0] ()
atakdog [0] ()
gusmahler [0] ()
SiestaGuru [0] ()
Hitch [0] ()
hewitt [0] ()
Wall-E [0] ()
oEJo [0] ()
Mada [0] ()

No Lynch [0] ()

Not Voting [8] (matrix, hewitt, Wall-E, The Central Scrutinizer, atakdog, Sun Tzu, Stef, M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE, )

[darkdude]

well-named REPLACES ZazieR.

[hewitt]

Well as of now, I'm going to put my vote down on matrix because I don't like his anti-town comments.

Vote: matrix

[well-named]

What's up!

I'm like 4 pages behind, I have to resolve a game I'm modding elsewhere a little later, and I'm playing poker right. So I probably won't say anything until tomorrow.

Except that if I'm the seer I got a villager peek. Just sayin'

[omg_im_innocent_wtf]

yeah replace me out or lynch me, im done wasting my time with these retards.

unvote: vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

[StrangerCoug]

yeah replace me out or lynch me, im done wasting my time with these retards.

unvote: vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

Everything in this post is completely uncalled for. Way to quit on us.

[atakdog]

I'm not going to respond to everything Fonz said, particularly because he's probably a villager and antagonizing him would be ungood for us. However:

- Yes, I have heard of "lynch all liars". I consider it an absurdly simplistic way to play werewolf, but I get that you and others here don't. The whole "policy lynch" meta, along with the idea that anyone who does something that doesn't facially help the town must therefore be scum, is something on which the two main contingents here are unlikely to agree, so while you're advocating a level one approach, understand that you will not be receiving unanimous support. I imagine you'll call that anti-town; have at it.

- No, I wasn't being sarcastic; it hadn't occurred to me that (1) it might take a long time to get replacements, and (2) that would upset anyone here -- the two seem inconsistent. But whatever, we're playing.

- For you to say Hitch needs to play a newbie game for not knowing what you mean by WIFOM, which a less than universal, and not particularly helpful even when spelled out, way of referring to the concept, suggests that you are not interested in seeing things from the perspective of someone who is unlike yourself. As mafia is a game that depends intimately on seeing things from others' hypothetical perspectives in order to deduce their motivations from their actions, I find this surprising.

[atakdog]

yeah replace me out or lynch me, im done wasting my time with these retards.

unvote: vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

Stay, please. We need you.

[oEJo]

I'm here.

I'm fine with an omg lynch.

I'm sick of the personal insults.

To everyone wishing I would come in and "chime in" on the situation: OMG IS NOT MY MASON BUDDY. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO SAY.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm glad the Fonz is in this game. I've played with him a couple times and he's pretty good.

I disagree about the fake peeks being anti-town tough. They provide seer cover. Personally, I don't like the "if I'm the seer" type peeks, but I agree with the principle.

While it's true that it helps the scum narrow down their targets, if the real cop is the only one leaving peeks, it's even worse. Also, who the scum kill while searching for the cop provides the town with useful information.

I agree about Hitch's post being a possible scum tell too.

[atakdog]

fonz,

teach me how to win friends and influence ppl k?

One, he doesn't have to. Two, nobody likes fluff posts.

The second half of this is wrong. A number of people do.

And before you tell me how anti-town they are, consider that perhaps it might be possible to deduce roles from the fluff -- perhaps from how smoothly it flows, particularly when directed at or involving some players more than others -- don't simply dismiss it. For example, you might consider that the post by m1ke to fonz looks more likely to be scum --> town than scum --> scum (m1ke could certainly do the latter, but Bayesian inference suggests, albeit weakly, that the post is scummy). If that's true, then you

want

m1ke to make those posts, to out himself and perhaps his partners. Also, fonz's reaction may reveal something, even when m1ke is village (which I think he is).

Note: the post in question wasn't actually measurably scummy, I'm just making the argument to illustrate the point that it is not always good scumhunting to take things only at face value: facially anti-town behavior can help the town find scum.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ugh... fake cop claims just make it harder for the town to diagnose real cop claims and easier for the mafia to gauge who is cop before they claim.

I'm pretty much down to either omg or matrix, omg because of the fakeclaim and matrix because of the vanilla claim.

Of course, if we were going to policy lynch all of those claiming shit right now, the game would be over, scum win.

Be that as it may,

vote: matrix

[atakdog]

What's up!

I'm like 4 pages behind, I have to resolve a game I'm modding elsewhere a little later, and I'm playing poker right. So I probably won't say anything until tomorrow.

Except that if I'm the seer I got a villager peek. Just sayin'

You would do well to refer to cops, not seers, and scum and townies -- people are getting upset at us when we slip up.

As Sun said, and others no doubt will: fake investigation posts provide cover for actual cops, and thus make it easier for cops to be clear about investigations they have conducted without fear. In a game in which yu do not know whether there is a doc, claiming too early is anti-town... but in a town in which several people leave fake views, either disguised or blatantly obvious, the dynamic is changed, and cops can stay undercover longer.

I'd think y'all would see that as a good thing.

[Sun Tzu]

Atakdog is on the money.

Mindless policies and mindless policy lynches are anti-town. Mafia is a game that requires thought and trying to get into other players' heads. You're not going to catch scum by using a list of standard scum-tells.

[atakdog]

Actually, it's not bad reasoning. If you're town, you have a town win condition. Claiming mason D1 hurts the town wc. Therefore, town should never do it, at least not deliberately. This leaves the possibility of a) the player did not realise it antitown b)

the player is doing it deliberately, and is therefore scum

(since, as we've said, town won't deliberately hurt their own WC). Town and scum are as likely to do it in manner a) whilst only scum will do b). Therefore, any antitown behaviour is a small scumtell at the very least. Of course, you have to weigh that against the likelihood he actually is a mason. And OMG's meta.

Logic breakdown: works only if a wolf claiming mason day one does not hurt wolves -- but on the most superficial level, it does (particularly when the mason partner can be expected to refute the claim). Therefore, it is not a scum tell in the simplest sense: if no rational L1 thinker would do it in any role, then we conclude either that he is not rational (which with omg may be right) or that he is not operating on level one -- and that's harder to assess.

In other words: what you said sounds nice, but rests on an unsound premise, namely that only scum would do something that, if done by town, would be anti-town. Both logic and, I strongly suspect, your own experience, suggest otherwise. The tradition of policy lynching may have clouded your judgment: it may be a good idea to lynch people who do anti-town things, but it's quite a leap from its being a good general policy to lynch them, to the behavior being a scum tell.

atakdog: Have you ever encountered lynch all liars? Is lying about roles as town common where you come from?

I answered the first question already, but should be clearer about the second one: Yes, where we come from it is quite normal for town players to lie, about their roles and other things. And it is not an acceptable answer simply to say that lying gets one lynched here, because there are enough players here who have grown up in a different culture, as it were, that simply policy lynching all liars will be likely to lose the game for the town -- and one of the rules of this site (yes, I checked) is that you are supposed to play to win the game.

[Sun Tzu]

Since the difference in styles and meta as well as differences in opinion regarding proper strategy are especially notable in this game, I'm going to give some of my mafia background.

I started out on a different site. In those games, there was unlimited outside communication so a lot of the game was played via PM. The meta was more like twoplustwo than mafiascum in terms of goofing and fluff, but "lynch all liars" was adhered to pretty rigidly and FPS was not encouraged.

I got hooked and signed up on another site in which the games were slower paced and outside communication was not allowed. The meta was about the same, but the level of play was not as good. I realized that outside communication detracts greatly from gameplay, but I didn't like the slower pace and lack of activity.

Most of the games on both those sites were themed mishmash type games with all kinds of crazy roles. I once ran a game where everyone was scum (3 different mafia families). Hitch, that is probably the main reason I realized what was up in that one game so quickly.

Then I tried mafiascum. I like the games here and I play here regularly but I do prefer a faster pace and I think a lot of the players here play way too simple-mindedly.

When I signed up on twoplustwo, I was out of my element and it took me a while to get used to the differences but it's currently my favorite place to play. I don't like FPS personally but I don't really mind other players doing it if they are smart about it and I think a mix of styles makes games better.

I'm a poker player and I've always thought of mafia as a game that uses the same skills as poker. You combine logical, mathematical analysis with reads based on psychology, intuition and careful study of your opponents.

I'm sorry if this seems like worthless fluff but I feel it was worth posting.

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, atakdog is making a ton of sense and I agree with everything he is saying, but it's not necessarily an indicator that he is town. As scum, he makes a ton of sense and loves to discuss theory and general things to appear town while not discussing the specifics of the games and players.

I'm not saying I think he is scum at this point, but don't clear him for it.

[hewitt]

I'm going to have to disagree, I don't think atakdog is scum. He seems very pro-town to me and is doing a good job of weeding out scum. I don't know how he played in the past but just from what I'm seeing he's good in my books...for now.

[Sun Tzu]

Hewitt, that's not disagreeing.

[hewitt]

My bad, I didn't make myself very clear in that post upon rereading it. What I meant was I'm pretty sure out of everybody in this game right now that atakdog is town...which is like 2% sure. Which is about 1-2% higher than everybody else lol. I guess what I meant was right now, atakdog is clear in my books, I see him as the most pro-town out of everybody in the forum. Pretty high as well is The Fonz, yourself actually, and possibly zhaorx. Then again, I have no idea yet, it's way too early.

[ScottHoward]

all, playing shorthanded while we wait for subs is uber retarted
for all we know, the people needing subs could all be wolves (unlikely they are ALL wolves, but you get the idea) and we are stroking each each other off
i need a sub
have fun

[StrangerCoug]

Where I started Mafia, the meta is pretty much run through other people's profiles and follow the cop. Seriously. I had a culture shock when I came here too, even if just mentally, but I've been able to adapt, and I find it more fun here (although I have the worse record here xD).

all, playing shorthanded while we wait for subs is uber retarted
for all we know, the people needing subs could all be wolves (unlikely they are ALL wolves, but you get the idea) and we are stroking each each other off
i need a sub
have fun

I see no reason to halt the game while we wait for replacements. They might take awhile, and we can still squeeze out a lot of good info while we wait. I don't think you're scummy because of this post, just paranoid.