Datisi's University [game over!]

[KatyKimFanClub]

VOTE: osuka

I think this is more likely to be scum than Sail.

[Doctor Drew]

Slight prod dodge, busy last couple of days(as are most weekends for me), but will be back in a few hours with a post that I promise will turn this game upside down*


*Any promise to turn this game upside down is no guarantee of exciting and/or useful content, comment was intended for humorous and shit posting purposes only. Any serious content posted here within or at a later date is purely coincidental.

[RCEnigma]

Andres I’m curious about the breadth of your scumread on me. Besides the linking you to Dusa thing. Which wasn’t a scumread on you. I was pointing out I didn’t think you and Dusa would be partners in a world at least one of you was scum.

You may have already addressed it but I’m not that keen on reading the catch-up posts and then going to follow the link to go back to the catch-up post so it makes sense then another link.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I’m curious about the breadth of your scumread on me. Besides the linking you to Dusa thing. Which wasn’t a scumread on you. I was pointing out I didn’t think you and Dusa would be partners in a world at least one of you was scum.

You may have already addressed it but I’m not that keen on reading the catch-up posts and then going to follow the link to go back to the catch-up post so it makes sense then another link.

The crux of it is that you decided to casually say that you would vote me because why not, I wasn’t contributing much (I think it was Dann who started that push, but you piled on), and that was the first thing that pinged me heavily. I could find the posts if you give me time, but in one of my catch up I’m pretty sure I ask you directly if you think I’m a slot that should just be axed while trying to stay on top of the game (slowly but surely).

[Dannflor]

I don’t really think osuka is scum anymore

[Dannflor]

I think I probably don’t want to kill Andres anymore either

I’ll organize my thoughts properly when my V/LA ends tonight

[camelCasedSnivy]

i would wait on sail but i dont really know what they would do to disuade me

maybe make a non fallacious case on someone

[camelCasedSnivy]

drew is also in that same boat and it seems theyre busy

i really dont know where else to push now maybe jjh but seems theyre townread

[Doctor Drew]

drew is also in that same boat and it seems theyre busy

i really dont know where else to push now maybe jjh but seems theyre townread

I am kinda here, did you have a question for me?

Also, if you think someone is scum, shouldn't matter if others town read them.

[RCEnigma]

Andres I’m curious about the breadth of your scumread on me. Besides the linking you to Dusa thing. Which wasn’t a scumread on you. I was pointing out I didn’t think you and Dusa would be partners in a world at least one of you was scum.

You may have already addressed it but I’m not that keen on reading the catch-up posts and then going to follow the link to go back to the catch-up post so it makes sense then another link.

The crux of it is that you decided to casually say that you would vote me because why not, I wasn’t contributing much (I think it was Dann who started that push, but you piled on), and that was the first thing that pinged me heavily. I could find the posts if you give me time, but in one of my catch up I’m pretty sure I ask you directly if you think I’m a slot that should just be axed while trying to stay on top of the game (slowly but surely).

You weren’t involved in the game and the catch up post you did make at the time was covering posts that you were already present in the game for and interacting with.

So with just that to go on, yeah I was fine if dann pushed a wagon onto you.

If I didn’t respond to any questioning I just didn’t see it.

[RCEnigma]

I think I probably don’t want to kill Andres anymore either

I’ll organize my thoughts properly when my V/LA ends tonight

Can I ask that you compare reads with Ina and, it doesn’t have to be FA but whoever else is in your town block to consolidate?

[Andresvmb]

I’m also finding it fascinating you TR’ed jjh here with a reference to 444, as I don’t trust the slot.

You find it fascinating that someone townreads someone you don't? I'm also going to put this comment here even though it references later parts of your post but can you just say scummy instead of weird? Like you're posturing to eliminate me Day 2 I get it just call me scummy.

It’s also interesting to me that you didn’t focus on the engagement itself when writing your catch up, but the boast by jjh there, to make a judgment. Your paragraph at the end makes it clear that you read it, and are looking it exclusively through the lens of jjh Town, Aristeia Scum, but then you don’t reach a conclusion about Aristeia in that post, though you do vote them later in 696, only to Unvote in 1407 and stay totally out of most important conversations. I also note that 770 just reinforces your early view of jjh.

The basis for the engagement itself is secondary to how jjh acts during it. Whether or not Aristeia responded to his questions or not (this is what I remember was the bulk of their initial confrontatation) doesn't mean anything to me as an outside observer. I liked the extent to which he went at Aristeia. I think it's pretty clear in 692 that I find Aristeia scummy, so why does it come as a surprise that I vote for her later? If the idea is that I didn't scumread her in the post, then that seems kind of unfair given the purpose of the post in relation to 695, which directly lays out my reads.

You really seem to have taken a lot of time to engage with the fact that jjh just flip flopped hard on their read of Aristeia (not until 1397, with the follow up on 1406). Which is just weird to me btw, since jjh really seems to be one of your central reads this game. If you had some suspicion, why would you take jjh’s explanation so much at face value? It’s avoiding confrontation in a completely unnatural way.

I felt his explanation made a lot of sense.

And 1475 does not make sense! 1406 says that in your last 2 out of 3 games, you had engaged in a long 1v1 that resulted in you putting the target of your engagement at the top of your reads list. But in 1475, you said you could never be the architect of a 1v1 and then come out of it in a constructive way, yet you can see jjh doing it. Which is it? I think it’s plain odd how far out of your way you’re going to TR jjh or not have a debate with them.

If you have a chance, you can read the two long 1v1s I was in (PC, Newbie 2127), (DeltaBreedy, Newbie 2125). They were not constructive at all and I took V/LAs after both because they took a lot out of me emotionally. I ended up townreading both because I felt like the overall play by my counterparts in both was town.

My comments should probably just be interpreted as 1) being impressed that jjh came out of his conversations with Ari with a read he was really happy with and 2) acknowledging that from my experience this is difficult to do, but often done as town.

I’m not setting you up for an execution D2 if I’m being honest. I think there’s other slots I would execute before you, but I do think your alignment depends a lot on what happens with {osuka, Sail, jjh}. Those are the slots that you’ve clearly focused on the most and would shed most light upon your alignment.

And when I say interesting or fascinating, I don’t mean Scummy. If I think it’s Scummy, I just say it, as I did with Ranger. It’s me thinking it’s potentially AI, and I want to see some discussion around it.

Look, if you’re saying that you weren’t super focused on how Aristeia responds to jjh’s questions or not, then I think the only conclusion you can draw is that jjh is Town for how they went about their press, but I would argue you have a hole as to the conclusion you reached on Aristeia’s alignment. Because I feel like any SR based on that interaction

should be based on how Aristeia reacted to the pressure

. Does that make sense? Like I don’t think you can get away with a vote on Aristeia by saying “good job jjh for scrutinizing the slot, but I didn’t really focus on how Aristeia responded”. It’s fine if you think Aristeia is Scummy, but I think the actual case from you was entirely missing, and without exploring that, I can’t make sense of your vote / unvote.

And I would argue your 1v1s were constructive if they either (i)led to the right conclusion about the slot you scrutinized, or (ii) made others think you were Town for how you went about it (assuming you were Town in both games as is implied in your response). I probably barely have time to finish ISO’ing other slots here to actually go read those 1v1s, but I’ll take your word for it if either of those conditions is true.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I’m curious about the breadth of your scumread on me. Besides the linking you to Dusa thing. Which wasn’t a scumread on you. I was pointing out I didn’t think you and Dusa would be partners in a world at least one of you was scum.

You may have already addressed it but I’m not that keen on reading the catch-up posts and then going to follow the link to go back to the catch-up post so it makes sense then another link.

The crux of it is that you decided to casually say that you would vote me because why not, I wasn’t contributing much (I think it was Dann who started that push, but you piled on), and that was the first thing that pinged me heavily. I could find the posts if you give me time, but in one of my catch up I’m pretty sure I ask you directly if you think I’m a slot that should just be axed while trying to stay on top of the game (slowly but surely).

You weren’t involved in the game and the catch up post you did make at the time was covering posts that you were already present in the game for and interacting with.

So with just that to go on, yeah I was fine if dann pushed a wagon onto you.

If I didn’t respond to any questioning I just didn’t see it.

There’s more than one slot that felt that when I was around, I was going about the game the right way. And that’s a bit the point. I think there was no balance from you there. You didn’t care to analyze the posts I put out when I was around, you just felt like you could get away with bashing me for making my first catch up post about posts that had happened when I was still around but had obviously not spent too much time thinking about carefully. Which frankly is a bit ridiculous (and from where I sit, Scummy). I would contrast that reaction to jjh who I’m suspicious of, but I would give positive credit for - they openly said they would simply let me do my thing before reacting to me (when I thought they were speaking to me, but were in fact responding to ina).

[KatyKimFanClub]

I’m not setting you up for an execution D2 if I’m being honest. I think there’s other slots I would execute before you, but I do think your alignment depends a lot on what happens with {osuka, Sail, jjh}. Those are the slots that you’ve clearly focused on the most and would shed most light upon your alignment.

Fair enough. I was probably too defensive here but thank you for clarifying and being direct with your wording.

Look, if you’re saying that you weren’t super focused on how Aristeia responds to jjh’s questions or not, then I think the only conclusion you can draw is that jjh is Town for how they went about their press, but I would argue you have a hole as to the conclusion you reached on Aristeia’s alignment. Because I feel like any SR based on that interaction should be based on how Aristeia reacted to the pressure. Does that make sense? Like I don’t think you can get away with a vote on Aristeia by saying “good job jjh for scrutinizing the slot, but I didn’t really focus on how Aristeia responded”. It’s fine if you think Aristeia is Scummy, but I think the actual case from you was entirely missing, and without exploring that, I can’t make sense of your vote / unvote.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I do/did have a reason for voting Aristeia, which I sort of hinted at when I referenced 513 in my catchup post. Looking back, I can see how it's unclear, but I found Aristeia looking worse between the two in the 1v1 and in particular, her obstinacy to be overplayed.

[Andresvmb]

If Sail flips Scum, KKFC’s defense here (in reference to 194 should be further scrutinized. It’s balanced with a reference to 301 being hard to understand as a response, but that may just be classic hedging between aligned parties.

What do you think of the merit of my individual points wrt Sail? I think it's fair to see this as hedging, but I was genuinely confused by 301. The post doesn't make sense.

I’m not putting too much stock on whatever you said about Sail. You seem to be lightly TR’ing there and are voting the CW, but are super hedgy. Like the below:

This is probably my cue to engage with the Sail wagon, given I promised to do that and the osuka wagon seems pretty dead.
Here are some random thoughts I've had:

Related to me:
If Sail is scum, he'd probably be more motivated to put me somewhere on his readslist from 1418, or at least think about me, given that I was someone who wasn't voting at the time but had expressed at least a doubt about his slot before?
We have very similar lists when it comes to townreads.

In general:
I kinda don't like the reliance on meta, or at least the commentary on it, for multiple players like in 469 and 470 given a later defense given wrt osuka in 1395?
I don't really think anything of Sail trying to eliminate osuka. I remember someone commented on it being survivalistic but there's really inklings of it pretty early on like from 700 but osuka isn't a wagon yet at that point.

Other players:
I think Wheme is town there are a decent number of similarities to the last game I played with him.

You have basically given a really soft reason to not SR them, and I’m not sure what you mean with the meta point. Is it that you think Sail’s use of meta was correctly highlighted by other players as suspicious? Are you defending Sail from others using meta against them? I’m not sure what you’re saying there, so please clarify. And what TRs overlap, and how are they determinant in making the read? This is important since Sail is facing tremendous pressure, so I think this is what we need to be discussing.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You have basically given a really soft reason to not SR them, and I’m not sure what you mean with the meta point. Is it that you think Sail’s use of meta was correctly highlighted by other players as suspicious? Are you defending Sail from others using meta against them? I’m not sure what you’re saying there, so please clarify. And what TRs overlap, and how are they determinant in making the read? This is important since Sail is facing tremendous pressure, so I think this is what we need to be discussing.

My argument wrt Sail's use of meta is that it seems like they're a little bit disingenuous when it comes to what they're using meta for and how confident they are in it. Like they're trying to sort people basically solely on meta earlier in the game but then suddenly there's more to it in osuka's case.

I am pretty aware that I am fence sitting here. I honestly don't know what to think of Sail and my hope was that I would have time on Monday to resolve it or propose a better wagon.

Sail townreads dann, dusa, and jjh. I do too. This fact was relevant to me because part of Sail's argument for a osuka elim is osuka's pushes on Dusa and Dann. As has been the trend, I have two conflicting ways to interpret this. One is that Sail could just be scum who is TMI and trying to get cred for pointing out bad pushes. On the other hand, our (me and Sail) similarity in townreads could mean that we are similarly informed (in this case both town) and coming to similar conclusions.

My analysis of Sail is pretty ego-centric at times (relating it to me, looking at how they view my slot, etc), but that's just how I tend to look at things.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I appreciate you asking me these questions by the way. I think they're very helpful in forcing me to try to figure out what is going on.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You have basically given a really soft reason to not SR them, and I’m not sure what you mean with the meta point. Is it that you think Sail’s use of meta was correctly highlighted by other players as suspicious? Are you defending Sail from others using meta against them? I’m not sure what you’re saying there, so please clarify. And what TRs overlap, and how are they determinant in making the read? This is important since Sail is facing tremendous pressure, so I think this is what we need to be discussing.

To re-quote this, if I had to make a determination of Sail right now weighing all the thoughts I've laid out or thought of, I would say that they're decently on the town side of null for me.

[RCEnigma]

Andres I’m curious about the breadth of your scumread on me. Besides the linking you to Dusa thing. Which wasn’t a scumread on you. I was pointing out I didn’t think you and Dusa would be partners in a world at least one of you was scum.

You may have already addressed it but I’m not that keen on reading the catch-up posts and then going to follow the link to go back to the catch-up post so it makes sense then another link.

The crux of it is that you decided to casually say that you would vote me because why not, I wasn’t contributing much (I think it was Dann who started that push, but you piled on), and that was the first thing that pinged me heavily. I could find the posts if you give me time, but in one of my catch up I’m pretty sure I ask you directly if you think I’m a slot that should just be axed while trying to stay on top of the game (slowly but surely).

You weren’t involved in the game and the catch up post you did make at the time was covering posts that you were already present in the game for and interacting with.

So with just that to go on, yeah I was fine if dann pushed a wagon onto you.

If I didn’t respond to any questioning I just didn’t see it.

There’s more than one slot that felt that when I was around, I was going about the game the right way. And that’s a bit the point. I think there was no balance from you there. You didn’t care to analyze the posts I put out when I was around, you just felt like you could get away with bashing me for making my first catch up post about posts that had happened when I was still around but had obviously not spent too much time thinking about carefully. Which frankly is a bit ridiculous (and from where I sit, Scummy). I would contrast that reaction to jjh who I’m suspicious of, but I would give positive credit for - they openly said they would simply let me do my thing before reacting to me (when I thought they were speaking to me, but were in fact responding to ina).

Maybe so, I thought you were townie enough the first time around, when you were engaging those posts in the moment etc. but going back over them was a weird take for me. Which is aside from the content of it, because that’s perfectly fine.

[Andresvmb]

@RCE for the record, see 1533 where I referenced 1172.

[RCEnigma]

I’ve seen you play before….but I’m not gonna lie I don’t remember much if anything about your play so I wouldn’t say I have a strong grasp on you as a player in either direction.

Trying to go through your posts to ask some questions but the formatting is hard to get around without knowing exactly what post you are referencing before I go to it, then going back and adding it to your response to it.

[RCEnigma]

You have jjh and sail in a similar scum category. What do you think about jjh calling out which games sail read up on Osuka when Sail claimed to do a meta dive there?

[Andresvmb]

My argument wrt Sail's use of meta is that it seems like they're a little bit disingenuous when it comes to what they're using meta for and how confident they are in it. Like they're trying to sort people basically solely on meta earlier in the game but then suddenly there's more to it in osuka's case.

I am pretty aware that I am fence sitting here. I honestly don't know what to think of Sail and my hope was that I would have time on Monday to resolve it or propose a better wagon.

Sail townreads dann, dusa, and jjh. I do too. This fact was relevant to me because part of Sail's argument for a osuka elim is osuka's pushes on Dusa and Dann. As has been the trend, I have two conflicting ways to interpret this. One is that Sail could just be scum who is TMI and trying to get cred for pointing out bad pushes. On the other hand, our (me and Sail) similarity in townreads could mean that we are similarly informed (in this case both town) and coming to similar conclusions.

My analysis of Sail is pretty ego-centric at times (relating it to me, looking at how they view my slot, etc), but that's just how I tend to look at things.

The thing is, if osuka is Town, defending other Town to condemn osuka is a super strong early strategy as Scum (the other flips would just make them look justified in pushing Town if one of the other slots flips). So I would be careful there. I think the push for osuka (and also the fact that they’re CWs) is more important than the TRs, which can change over time depending on how the game is going. However, I think the bad meta argument is more indicative of a Scummy mindset, but that’s my perception.

I need to re-read osuka’s ISO. That’s my next task.

[RCEnigma]

@RCE for the record, see 1533 where I referenced 1172.

Also, I don’t want to further an interaction where you double down on pointing to me as scum and I bias myself into thinking it’s scummy for you doing so because I don’t have strong feelings about it in the first place. Or I would have put a vote down there when dann did.

[Andresvmb]

You have jjh and sail in a similar scum category. What do you think about jjh calling out which games sail read up on Osuka when Sail claimed to do a meta dive there?

I’m not trying super hard to make pre-flip associations at this stage, and I have really conflicting feelings about jjh. Like it’s hard for me to say I’m convinced jjh flips Scum. I’m skeptical of the slot, I need to read more. I did catch the questions about the meta, but I don’t think jjh pushed Sail super hard based on those responses did they? But asking them when the answers were clearly not great, should Sail flip Scum, certainly would count in their favor.