Veiled Committee Mafia: List Mods Edition [game over]

[KatyKimFanClub]

I think Aureal is town

[AniX]

Gladly. We have a list of every role in the game (multiple people have done much more through documenting of this so I will not recap them all again). Some of them are lies, assuredly, but the bulk of them are extremely likely to be true. They are all complex, weird roles that do all sorts of wild stuff. And then we have DragonEater, whose role is:

I am a cop, except I lose my cop ability the first time a townie player is eliminated, which kinda sucks and is the reason I didn't want to vote Koba but meh.

Forget a complex, weird role that does wild stuff, this is a role that is worse than bog standard cop. It is worse than even ONE-SHOT cop because at least that cop is guaranteed the one shot as long as they stay alive. This is simply not a role that matches ANYONE ELSE'S role in the game. Every single other role has common elements with another role and actually does something unusual. He denies it looks scummy NOW but he had something different to say in the moment:

Also would scum!me ever make a shitty claim like this? It is a horrible claim.

I'm not really buying "Yeah, my claim sucks and clearly implicates me...so much so that I must be innocent", especially when he stalled, and stalled, and stalled in revealing his role (I think he was the last one to claim? Or at least one of the few couple to) and then finally, realizing he couldn't think up a complex wacky role that he could believably sell as being pairable with others and finally, pressure on to claim, he threw out some nonsense and hoped it was so scummy it ceased being scummy in our eyes. And it is working! Instead of focusing on that, we are chasing our tales with Cook and Klick, which I still haven't heard a single actual argument for and, Aureal, who has the opposite problem to DragonEater where we know FOR A FACT their role has some recruit elements because more people have confirmed the recruitment ability than could possibly be evil team.

[AniX]

and based on your current feelings, how would you rank the 3 wagons on which one you'd rather see go through?

It is really telling that you just keeping asking "Yeah, but which would you vote for if you had to" in response to "ok, I'm willing to vote, what are the cases" instead of, you know, just giving the cases.

[AniX]

To be clear: Telling in the sense of "These wagons are based on nothing and people are just voting to vote because they want to avoid no lim". I think it is alignment agnostic behavior.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Forget a complex, weird role that does wild stuff, this is a role that is worse than bog standard cop. It is worse than even ONE-SHOT cop because at least that cop is guaranteed the one shot as long as they stay alive. This is simply not a role that matches ANYONE ELSE'S role in the game. Every single other role has common elements with another role and actually does something unusual. He denies it looks scummy NOW but he had something different to say in the moment:

I agree, and this was something I was going to mention earlier when I had my interaction with DE. There's some roles with randomness, and some roles with negative utility, but this is a really weird and unique (in this game, I think unique is a pretty good indicator of fake) way to gate an ability and makes me think that DE is not telling the truth with his role.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think the start of the game makes much sense for him given what he later claimed his role to be.
I'm not sure how I would play his role, because it's not very powerful, but voting DkKoba then claiming that scum was in the lurkers seems like DE is already at peace with being VT. So why oppose a massclaim? It's a way to bring utility to his role.

[AniX]

I realize going through my old posts I accidentally am voting for DragonEater90, who doesn't exist, and not DragonEater70, who is extremely sus. I trust the mod understands what I meant but I am going to revote anyway just to be sure:

Vote DragonEater70

[Meuh]

@AniX

2. I get that you can't read everything, but out of the things you read, what made you scumread RN in particular?

I'm comparing RN here to RN in the game I've played with him that just ended (viewtopic.php?sid=&f=83&t=91199&user_select%5B%5D=37068)
RN is a LOT more self-assured there, and holds stronger beliefs. Now this may be partially an activity thing (he seems to have been busier during this game than in the one I'm referencing, so he'd have less of a grasp on the game) but I don't think it justifies a gap this big. The only thing he takes a strong stance on and shows confidence in is activity not being indicative of alignment, which is always a really easy point to make and specifically serves the purpose of defending himself here. The idea that the game doesn't "start" for him until day 2 and he has a hard time engaging on day 1 doesn't line up with him extensively engaging on day 1 in that other game. The fact he leans on this as extra justification (rather than just being busy) reeks in my eyes. He also just has out there takes and isn't afraid to push them in that game. He did a bunch of work to put pressure on the most widely townread player there, entered conflict a bunch (in a way a lot less passive than here, the only time he gets aggressive at all is when saying that activity is NAI)
A lot of RN's commentary in this game also seems to be NAI beliefs that he holds more broadly. The aforementioned "activity is NAI", his thoughts on massclaiming, points like these:

I don't think I agree with "this trait Town, this trait Scum." Game's more complex than that.

Also, I touched on this already but it feels like his posting is made with the purpose of appealing to others. This isn't always scum indicative (I do it as town sometimes when I wanna get read accurately) but I think for RN it is. In the other game, even under pressure, his posts were never made with the intent to make himself just look good. In the other game he's having independent ideas brought to the table and his posting is with the motivation for himself to solve the game and push his ideas forward. Here he just gets through the chore of making some very inoffensive comments on some posts and moves on from there. He's not posting for himself, and that probably just makes him scum.

This is my case on Klick here. It's been dismissed as just being due to RN's disengagement with the game but I do think there's meaningful things in his ISO, and to deny it is kind of just lazy.

AniX
Political Clout
Ranger
Theta Alpine
Save The Dragons
Aureal
Alisae
Deltabreedy
Random Nurse
camelCasedSnivy
DragonEater70
KatyKimFanClub
DkKoba
Bingle
Skygazer
Cook

I really hate this readlist, which is not surprising considering I think Ircher has been consistently scummy this game, but I'll bite:
Care to explain your reads?

Not really. I'll elaborate on why Cook is scum though (and

maybe

on why AniX is town later): the way she voted Drew in 683 and then continued voting Drew in 716 despite expressing a town read there was slimy. She then unvotes in 722, but it isn't because of her professed town read but because she is "bored of this wagon". That doesn't necessarily mean she is aligned with Drew (but she could be); however, it does come across as the kind of wishy-washy read that scum like to put out to avoid taking accountable stances. 815 and 817 are the kind of follow-ups I's expect scum to make. "Well, gee, I can't change the past, so you should just drop this line of attack." Like no, you should accept accountability for your actions rather than immediately going on the defensive.

The claim is scummy too. Apparently, she doesn't know what the modifier she provides before she provides it... but she learns what it is after she uses her action... I'm sorry, but I've seen very few roles that actually work that way. I don't think the moderators would actually design a role like that. Most roles are designed such that you either know what happens in advance, or it's random and you don't know what specifically happened. Thus, this seems like something Cook made up to give her enough room for maneuvering when she uses her actual ability.

1258 and 1282 were bad because they are just noise, don't actually accomplish their intended effect (if anything, it will just make the process slower due to spite), and are also ignorant of how Ranger explained she wasn't claiming immediately but would get to it when she could.

Here's a case on Cook.

Okay I guess Bingle did suspect you but you were acting as if were EVERYONE doing this and not just Bingle.

Both DK and I suspect Aureal.

Aureal still has not talked at all about why she needed to claim last, to the best of my knowledge, and her claim was more akin to scavenger hunt than a claim. I frankly don't see a town benefit to making your ability incredibly difficult to parse AND strongarming your way into being able to claim at the very end of the process when your role doesn't have any aspects that would change other people's claims.

I mean... It's pointing out the entire hypocrisy of Aureal's push on DE, not a cohesive case on it's own. She's literally saying he's scum for doing things she herself is doing.

The actual case on Aureal is that she's trying hard to leverage a townread from a role that isn't inherently townie and her play doesn't actually make sense if her role is town.

These Bingle posts sums up the bulk of the Aureal case succinctly.

the aureal role discussion has poisoned the thread and flipping aureal, who has shown they are not going to be an asset to us anyways, will help thread health *at worst*, even if they flip town so. (and there's plenty of reason for her to flip scum anyways, among the deflection, refusal to engage scumhunting requests, etc.)

This from Koba is also worth mentioning (and describes a lot of the more recent bad feelings about Aureal quite well)

[Meuh]

The constant invalidation of the pushes being made is very frustrating and explains why we're at about four weeks of this game with no one dead.

[Meuh]

and based on your current feelings, how would you rank the 3 wagons on which one you'd rather see go through?

It is really telling that you just keeping asking "Yeah, but which would you vote for if you had to" in response to "ok, I'm willing to vote, what are the cases" instead of, you know, just giving the cases.

Everyone has passive feelings on other players, and I don't think it was unreasonable for me to want to understand your feelings on that set of people. This is especially true considering they'd give me a better grasp on what you're thinking (and therefore would help me sort you), and that it's currently relevant since consolidation is needed. We as a town need to settle onto something sooner rather than later, rushing last minute is unsurprisingly not good!

[AniX]

I've said it a few times, but I do not believe social reads are particularly accurate or valuable on day 1, especially when we have mech evidence on the table.

If I had to rank, I guess I'd put Klick/Cook on the same tier of "Based on nothing, you could equally ask me about any two other random players" and then Aureal as a slightly worse vote than that, as I think neighborization/recruitment is less likely than baseline to be scum and from my personal perspective, neighborizing at the very least is 100% beyond a doubt confirmed.

[Meuh]

Okay if you think social reads aren't valuable here then we just fundamentally have misaligned approaches and we're not going to get anywhere.

[KatyKimFanClub]

What do y'all mean by social read?

[Cook]

What do y'all mean by social read?

presume it's either "not mech" or "associative" read. not sure

[xyzzy]

votecount 1.26

thank you for being a friend

6 players voting for Aureal (Bingle, Cook, Political Clout, camelCasedSnivy, DkKoba, Meuh)
4 players voting for Cook (Ranger, Ircher, Theta Alpine, Save The Dragons)
2 players voting for Klick (KatyKimFanClub, ofrhz)
2 players voting for KatyKimFanClub (Skygazer, DragonEater70)
1 player voting for DragonEater70 (AniX)

2 players not voting (Klick, Aureal)

with 17 votes, it takes 9 to eliminate.

mod notes: prodded Theta Alpine, Ranger, and Save The Dragons.

deadline: (expired on 2023-09-01 00:00:00)

[AniX]

I mean it in the sense of basing one's opinion on scumminess on how people phrase things or the way they say (or don't say) them based on one's subjective opinion on how those things should be coded, as opposed to the specific things they say or arguments they make. That is to say, I reject arguments such as

I touched on this already but it feels like his posting is made with the purpose of appealing to others.

as having any value at this stage of the game.

[DkKoba]

I've said it a few times, but I do not believe social reads are particularly accurate or valuable on day 1, especially when we have mech evidence on the table.

If I had to rank, I guess I'd put Klick/Cook on the same tier of "Based on nothing, you could equally ask me about any two other random players" and then Aureal as a slightly worse vote than that, as I think neighborization/recruitment is less likely than baseline to be scum and from my personal perspective, neighborizing at the very least is 100% beyond a doubt confirmed.

in my experience, which far outstrips your experience seeing as you said you havent played a game since the 2000s, mech is infinitely less reliable on day 1 when no actions have been taken. and IF WE WERE TO ONLY USE MECH and how people used it-> the way aureal has treated her role is at best anti-town.


i feel like u are bluffing how much you have read of this game and just pumping along with the same takes you had ages ago bc "social reads are bad" when its like empirically proven that they work on d1 even if to find the best elimination for information.

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

[AniX]

You can feel any way you choose about me or any other player. I am, nevertheless, going to stick with the actual evidence we have.

[DkKoba]

AniX
Political Clout
Ranger
Theta Alpine
Save The Dragons
Aureal
Alisae
Deltabreedy
Random Nurse
camelCasedSnivy
DragonEater70
KatyKimFanClub
DkKoba
Bingle
Skygazer
Cook

I really hate this readlist, which is not surprising considering I think Ircher has been consistently scummy this game, but I'll bite:
Care to explain your reads?

Not really. I'll elaborate on why Cook is scum though (and

maybe

on why AniX is town later):

the way she voted Drew in 683 and then continued voting Drew in 716 despite expressing a town read there was slimy.

pretty obvious it was a pressure vote in the context there, people not moving their vote immediately is not an unknown concept and im not sure why you feel so hung up over it, feels like "looks weird must be scummy" logic that comes from scum

She then unvotes in 722, but it isn't because of her professed town read but because she is "bored of this wagon". That doesn't necessarily mean she is aligned with Drew (but she could be); however, it does come across as the kind of wishy-washy read that scum like to put out to avoid taking accountable stances.

Again, "looks weird" logic, and doesnt even think about what drew's alignment is(and in fact contradicts the previous statement trying to shade her for it)

815 and 817 are the kind of follow-ups I's expect scum to make. "Well, gee, I can't change the past, so you should just drop this line of attack." Like no, you should accept accountability for your actions rather than immediately going on the defensive.

i have never actually seen you catch scum this way so ? this is confbias logic that doesn't work. there are way more angles to read cook from here lmao

The claim is scummy too. Apparently, she doesn't know what the modifier she provides before she provides it... but she learns what it is after she uses her action... I'm sorry, but I've seen very few roles that actually work that way. I don't think the moderators would actually design a role like that. Most roles are designed such that you either know what happens in advance, or it's random and you don't know what specifically happened. Thus, this seems like something Cook made up to give her enough room for maneuvering when she uses her actual ability.

aureal has done worse with her claim and you think this is scummy but aureal is town? ircher scum/scum with aureal stonks going up. it doesn't look made up to me, it looks like a true claim that either you take at face value or you discard it from reasoning.

1258 and 1282 were bad because they are just noise, don't actually accomplish their intended effect (if anything, it will just make the process slower due to spite), and are also ignorant of how Ranger explained she wasn't claiming immediately but would get to it when she could.

ok this is acutally just straight up scummy shade LMFAOOOOOO like this is TEXTBOOK scum trying to shade a townie for doing something that looks "off" and this is basically the bulk of the case. ircher is like almost certainly scum with aureal and i will be advocating to chain kill aureal into ircher here

responses in red bc this case cracked me up and i had to

[DkKoba]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

wow ok whats the solve then?

[DkKoba]

like ur trying to tell everyone either to throw their hands up and say "zomg we cant do anything we cant solve" when like many of us have been capable of finding at least 1 mafia on day 1 consistently if not at least a path to get mafia on day 2 at minimum.

[DkKoba]

like ur trying to tell everyone either to throw their hands up and say "zomg we cant do anything we cant solve" when like many of us have been capable of finding at least 1 mafia on day 1 consistently if not at least a path to get mafia on day 2 at minimum or ... do what exactly?

ebwop

like im struggling to find where you are getting that dragoneater is mafia here just bc you dont like how their claim sounds when its a super regular sounding role, like your role and aureal's are both insanely complicated and theres a difference to how you have treated yours and how aureal has approached hers, and im just not convinced you really are even trying to make reads because you're afraid of being wrong or something (thats part of the game, trust me, I have been wrong many times in early games especially), and its that trial and error that gets you to the right answer and is a proven method to a) project yourself town and b) box out the mafia and not let them do what you're doing and make it harder to find whos just saying things

[DkKoba]

I want to remind everyone the last time I played forum mafia (I want to say 2004? early 2005?) I think only Dragon was on the site and one or more of you might not even have been born so please cut me some slack when I eventually lose the game for the town. I am effectively a newbie and since I just shuttered the newbie queue and fired the newbie mod, I really am rudderless right now.

Anyway, I kind of want to vote Save the Dragons, I really want to be able to say "I haven't played since before any living player joined". Can we make that happen?

like when you open the game with something like this i would hope you might delegate stuff to players who are clearly showing capability in pushing something on d1 like meuh at least if not myself(and hell, dragoneater has done some good work and its been ignored for the most part)

[AniX]

How many games have you played where all the roles were created by a knowable cabal and are all linked to each other in sets and there is a full game claim on day 1? I'll defer to your experience on how it went your last game.

wow ok whats the solve then?

That is what I am trying to get town to work towards, but people keep getting distracted by "Well, we have all this evidence, but I'm just not vibing with that evidence sorry to say so I am going to base it on how these posts make me feel"