Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[ScottHoward]

sun, currently you arent voting OMG
you should be imo
do it
do it now

[The Fonz]

I'm glad the Fonz is in this game. I've played with him a couple times and he's pretty good.

I disagree about the fake peeks being anti-town tough. They provide seer cover. Personally, I don't like the "if I'm the seer" type peeks, but I agree with the principle.

Quite the contrary, because...

While it's true that it helps the scum narrow down their targets, if the real cop is the only one leaving peeks, it's even worse. Also, who the scum kill while searching for the cop provides the town with useful information.

Right. But the real cop should categorically not leave 'peeks' either. At the very least, not as utterly unsubtly as that. I tend to be of the opinion that breadcrumbing is in general a bad idea, since anything that can be caught by the town can also be caught by the scum (in fact more often, since town should be scumhunting, whilst finding the cop is a priority for scum). You have to be damn good to be able to breadcrumb without risking giving yourself away... the overwhelming majority of players, myself included, are not that good.

Also, you cannot assume that the scum are solely cophunting.

I'm not going to respond to everything Fonz said, particularly because he's probably a villager and antagonizing him would be ungood for us. However:

- Yes, I have heard of "lynch all liars". I consider it an absurdly simplistic way to play werewolf, but I get that you and others here don't.

Heh, not so much 'others here.' i think we're a minority here as well. But then i also believe that most people who oppose it don't actually understand it, or why lying as town is so bad. For instance, if this site had a solid LAL meta, then OMG wouldn't have risked outing a real mason pair like he did. I mean, read the discussions on the subject in mafia discussion. IMHO, JEEP wins them hands down.

People who disagree tend to be the kind of player who think themselves to be especially clever, and to think that just this instance of lying will work out differently to every other instance. They're wrong, and 'die if you get caught' is a pretty big incentive to think carefully about it.

The whole "policy lynch" meta, along with the idea that anyone who does something that doesn't facially help the town must therefore be scum, is something on which the two main contingents here are unlikely to agree, so while you're advocating a level one approach, understand that you will not be receiving unanimous support. I imagine you'll call that anti-town; have at it.

I've explained why doing antitown things is by its very nature scummy; namely, that antitown actions must be scum-benefitting, so the scum have incentive to do them if not penalised for them; and the only real method we have to disincentivize them is the lynch.

If you're acting antitown, you're either scum, or providing cover for scum. If the mafia are aware, through the medium of policy lynching, that actions which harm the town won't be tolerated, then the mafia are forced to either act in the town's interests, or give themselves away.

Neither of which are in the mafia's interest, and both of which are likely to lead to more mafia lynches.

- No, I wasn't being sarcastic; it hadn't occurred to me that (1) it might take a long time to get replacements, and (2) that would upset anyone here -- the two seem inconsistent. But whatever, we're playing.

Well, you suggested doing nothing until the replacements showed. Since that is likely to take a period of time measured in weeks, that means you were advocating doing nothing for that kind of period. For fairly obvious reasons, that struck me as absurd.

- For you to say Hitch needs to play a newbie game for not knowing what you mean by WIFOM, which a less than universal, and not particularly helpful even when spelled out, way of referring to the concept, suggests that you are not interested in seeing things from the perspective of someone who is unlike yourself. As mafia is a game that depends intimately on seeing things from others' hypothetical perspectives in order to deduce their motivations from their actions, I find this surprising.

You're being terifically presumptuous, if not dishonest. If you are not familiar with the notion that scum can do things that appear to be against their interest to look innocent, or do obviously scum-favouring things and pull the 'too scummy to be scum' card and so on along the infinite regress, then you are unfamiliar with one of the most important aspects of the game. It's like Mafia 101.

If, of course, you were interested in reasoned discussion and not petty pointscoring, you would have noted my saying 'that's ok then' when Hitch stated that he was familiar with the concept, but not the acronym.

As for 'less than universal' it's the only way I've ever seen it referenced.

[Hitch]

so, fonz, who do you want to kill?

What leads you to believe that The Fonz has a killing role?

FoS: Hitch

I don't.

I asked who he wanted to kill, who do you want to kill? me?

You know we get to kill someone as a collective town right?

[well-named]

Scott, buy me dinner first.

Also, raise your hand if you're disappointed that FoS doesn't mean Full o' Shit? I know I was.

[Sun Tzu]

sun, currently you arent voting OMG
you should be imo
do it
do it now

You had your chance for us to be masons.

[ScottHoward]

wait, it doesnt mean full o'shit?
wtf does it mean?

[ScottHoward]

not asking you to be a mason
im asking you to help end day 1

[ScottHoward]

fonz, we have all decided to get this day over asap.
you should vote OMG

(we = me)

[ScottHoward]

wn?
diagfldo

[Sun Tzu]

Finger of Suspicion


Fonz, fwiw, I agree with you for the most part.

[ScottHoward]

ok thanks sun
i agree with wn, full of shit is much better

[Sun Tzu]

I will only use FoS when I mean full of shit.

[well-named]

I tend to be of the opinion that breadcrumbing is in general a bad idea

It follows that if you assume this, than you would oppose fake claims for cover, since there's nothing to cover for. I disagree with this as a premise though. I think our typical line of reasoning goes something like.

1) Gosh, it would be nice if the doctor could tell us who he peeked without having to explicitly claim, thus getting his extra info to the village (where it does some good) whilst getting to free-roll (essentially) the night kill.

2) Yeah, but he can't just post his peeks because that would be too obvious.

3) OK, but if he's not clear than the value of the info is diminished. There's also a huge downside to being killed without making your peeks known.

4) What if other regular townie's put out peeks that were faked as a cover for the real doctor? Than he could get his peeks out while still having a chance to live, and not have to claim explicitly!

5) Hey! That's cool, and even more interesting is that if the mafia screw up and kill one of the fake doctors that gives us information on the people who were fake-peeked, which is also pretty valuable.

6) Wow! That sounds great! Now let's have some lunch.

So sure, if you assume the real doctor never leaves peeks until he claims, then there is no value in village-faking. But, if there is a substantial upside in allowing the real doctor to get his peeks out prior to claiming, and I think there is as described, both in terms of negating the potential loss of info on unexpected NK, and in terms of the extra info created from the fakes in and of themselves, than it might be worth thinking about how to allow the doctor to do so. Fake peeks are the answer. The supposed downside, as I've read it in this game, is that it somehow narrows the range of players the mafia might consider NK'ing, but I'm not seeing any reason why this might be so. After all, they have to consider the meta of every claimant, as well as the possibility the real doctor might choose NOT to leave peeks amongst the fakes, so I don't see a priori why the range is narrowed.

There are other reasons why faking other power roles might be useful, but they are probably less justifiable than fake-claiming doctor. The main consideration from a pro-town perspective is drawing NKs aside from ones motivated by doctor-fake-claiming. Beyond that it's probably mostly just FPS-for-FPS-sake, and though there is some credibility to the argument that

that

is anti-town, it's also kind of fun from time to time, and it's only really anti-town if the town is entirely unprepared to account for it.

[zhaorx]

lol i thought fos = full of shit too

[Sun Tzu]

Seriously Scott, who do you think is mafia?

[zhaorx]

and scott howard is owning this thread.

vote: omgiminnocentthisnameisdumb

[ScottHoward]

i will use FoS when i mean full of shit, but will claim to really have meant finger of suspicion
similarly, i will use fr when i mean fing retart, but i will claim it means "fine response"

[Sun Tzu]

Fonz's reasoning about breadcrumbing and leaving peeks is perfect except for the problem of the cop dying before he comes out.

[Hitch]

Where I started Mafia, the meta is pretty much run through other people's profiles and follow the cop. Seriously. I had a culture shock when I came here too, even if just mentally, but I've been able to adapt, and I find it more fun here (although I have the worse record here xD).

all, playing shorthanded while we wait for subs is uber retarted
for all we know, the people needing subs could all be wolves (unlikely they are ALL wolves, but you get the idea) and we are stroking each each other off
i need a sub
have fun

I see no reason to halt the game while we wait for replacements. They might take awhile, and we can still squeeze out a lot of good info while we wait. I don't think you're scummy because of this post, just paranoid.

Agree, even if we're all town, we can still find posts today that may turn out reasons to clear people down the line.

Can I multi quote with this software?

[Sun Tzu]

WN, doctor = angel

cop = seer

[well-named]

That's why I shouldn't try to translate myself.

I meant cop.

[ScottHoward]

sun, iirc i had zazier as wolf
but its been a couple days and i stopped thinking about this game once the tears started flowing.
if this charade of a day 1 ends, i will go back and refresh my memory.

[well-named]

I totally just leveled the hell out of the mafia

[Hitch]

My bad, I didn't make myself very clear in that post upon rereading it. What I meant was I'm pretty sure out of everybody in this game right now that atakdog is town...which is like 2% sure. Which is about 1-2% higher than everybody else lol. I guess what I meant was right now, atakdog is clear in my books, I see him as the most pro-town out of everybody in the forum. Pretty high as well is The Fonz, yourself actually, and possibly zhaorx. Then again, I have no idea yet, it's way too early.

He was trying to warn you; you should listen. His perception, having played with me a lot, is that I could and would do and say exactly what I've done so far, as scum or town. He's pretty close to right -- as I said, you should listen.

What you can know with pretty high certainty is that Matrix and I are very rarely scum together here -- his "mistake" which as Z points out, may not even have been one -- is something he could easily have gotten away with had I not hammered on it. I am certainly not above busing scum, but I rarely do so day one and I'd be strongly disinclined to do it to an experienced partner, or in a game with unknown power roles.

At this point the wolfiest sounding player (keep in mind that I can really only read tone for players I have played with before) is Hitch -- Hitch is my best werewolf/mafia bud, but he's been over the top about following me, and then his attempt to hookup with the fonz concerned me as well. IMO he'd be a lousy lynch today, but y'all have to realize when reading us foreigners that often we sound more townie as scum than as town.

In other news, the development of the Matrix wagon is interesting: my initial argument was that a local would be expected to gun for omg while an experienced POGger would not, but now he;'s getting a lot more pressure from locals for his "anti-town" behavior. This is odd because his behavior started with a desire to lynch the lying claimant, which y'all wanted to do anyway. The vanilla town claim is far less harmful than (in general) the mason claim (particularly because it's trivially easy to make and fake), so it's notable that the wagon on him is overtaking that on omg.

Doesn't clear him, but if he turns up town it will be worth looking back at how the flow went.

Interesting. I feel we are both naturally wary of each other because we have both been mutually owned? me moreso than you admitedly.

My feelings were that I was leading the matrix thinking, not following? I mean the actual reasoning, but I then tok a back seat when 'we' actually settled on specific players that this thinking applied to, namely the matrix, because your playing experiance with him was infinately bigger than mine? Please re-read the buildup and see if you agree?

Also, please remember the last time I played I basically followed your vote as my sole contribution before subbing out because my workload was unmanagable, and I was town.

WRT your last paragraph, I think that leading and following are two completely different things in this regard. The poggers have lead the charge on the matrix.

I had some more to add, but my wife distracted me mid post, ugh..

[atakdog]

I totally just leveled the hell out of the mafia

That's "WIFOM", boy. That's the only way we ever see it designated. What's wrong with you?