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[Gimli]

I decided I like Black this game

[DragonEater70]

It's not a full one-on-one comparison but lets say someone has a habit of fake-claiming and they do this as town too - if it later came to light that they fakeclaimed in a game then you'd still be justified seeing it as scummy, no?

This is an awful comparison because fakeclaiming has clear scum motivation behind it, and while town

might

do it here and there, and some town players might be more prone to do it than others, it has no bearing on the fact that it's objectively a legitimate scum strategy that you should look out for. Or basically you could say that given a certain player has fakeclaimed, then statistically they are more likely to be fakeclaiming scum than fakeclaiming town, because fakeclaiming scum are more common (and most players that are known to fakeclaim as town do trueclaim as town most of the time, so this is statistically valid on them too).

On the other hand, what I did here - specifically, asking Python to vote me - has no clear scum motivation behind it*. And while it may (or may not) be true that this action has a high chance to come from scum when you look at a cross section of all players on the site (I haven't actually checked that), when you look at me you will see that this is absolutely something I do as town. So statistically, this makes me towny, or NAI at worst if you think I could be doing this as scum too (despite no evidence that I've ever done anything like that as scum).

*I'm referring to the action in a vacuum, without the WIFOM of "was he doing what he normally does or was he imitating what he normally does", because based on Comet's postings it's very clear she wasn't thinking I was trying to imitate my town meta.

Like, I have taken that you do it as town into account - that's why I left you in the middle of my readlist as opposed to lower down.

This is not how it workssss

It's like saying "self voting is scummy but Alianna has self-voted as town so instead of putting her as full scum I will put her mid tier because she self voted", instead of looking at her content and saying "Oh, that's obvtown. Classic Alianna. Okay she self voted, who cares? She's still town."

I feel so frustrated because I know town!Comet pretty well and I know Comet knows me pretty well so I just don't get how Comet could ever reach the first conclusion instead of the second one.

But what I'm also not getting is why she's doubling down on it which would be a really weird scum move. Okay you know what, nevermind about that. Comet did scumread me for half of Day 1 previously for doing exactly this, I guess it's just ingrained in her outlook on Mafia that this is scummy. Fiinnneeeeeee Comet can be town. Can we vote Kittie now?

[DragonEater70]

I'm not sure I'm wrapping my head around what we're discussing Dragon. What's the point of contention? My post #83 where I said the thing you did was, from my opinion, scummy but not as much in your case because I know you do it as town?

Yes but I just realized it's actually fine for you to scumread me off that because the game you heavily townread me from the start was the one newbie game where I didn't do that.

[usesPython]

I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

What we really need right now is a funny flashwagon to shake up the game

[Gimli]

I'm also probably vibing with Timmer

sorry if I'm not using words for things, it takes a lot longer for me to decide on a lean than to describe what it is that I felt

[Gimli]

I kinda vibe with afrayed knott

this game is pretty hard

[Gimli]

I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

What we really need right now is a funny flashwagon to shake up the game

thats true

in other news I think the scumteam might be two players I can't parse from null, like python/anen, or something like that.

[DragonEater70]

Okay, I admit I did not properly read Kittie's 157 earlier because it's just painful to read on a widescreen computer monitor. Much easier to read on a phone but I haven't been playing on phone lately. Well anyway I kinda get what she was saying about GImli and Python. Like I don't agree with it, in fact I think it's a pretty silly read (sorry kittie), but there does seem to be some semblence of a thought process there so she gets like half a town point.

Thought once again, um, her thought process reminds me of IcetFeelsPain. Yes I will keep bringing this up because I keep seeing it.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I think VIP sounds kinda crazy for thinking that the ordering of the posts kittie quoted in 157 is suspicious in any way, and makes me think that maybe VIP hasn't even read that post because the thought process there does explain the ordering of those posts. And shading a post (and btw VIP put some serious effort into shading 157) without reading it is, well...

I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader actually.

Anyway, since Comet asked nicely, my limpool is currently:
VIP, Kittie, Timmer

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: VIP

I kinda vibe with afrayed knott

this game is pretty hard

Why is it hard? Knott is townie as heck.

[Gimli]

VOTE: VIP

I guess I can kill that which I don't understand

[Gimli]

IDK DE,

you're being overly sure of things

I need more Black in this game

[Cometbright]

I don't really agree with #251 but I'm not sure if getting into an extended back-and-forth on meta is really helpful for the gamestate right now.

[DragonEater70]

To add clarification to this, my partner plays else where with an experienced group. When I showed interest in wanting to play too, he directed me to this site because they have space for newbs to learn the ropes instead of jumping in cold to a game with a bunch of players who all know each other... which it seems I wasn't able to avoid.

lol that's actually unfortunate, but only 55.5% percent of us know each other, the other 44.4% are complete strangers.

Hey Nameless [that's one of the people that compose Python], isn't my math both technically correct and extremely irritating at the same time?)

[DragonEater70]

IDK DE,

you're being overly sure of things

Isn't that what you TR about me though?

[DragonEater70]

To add clarification to this, my partner plays else where with an experienced group. When I showed interest in wanting to play too, he directed me to this site because they have space for newbs to learn the ropes instead of jumping in cold to a game with a bunch of players who all know each other... which it seems I wasn't able to avoid.

lol that's actually unfortunate, but only 55% percent of us know each other, the other 44% are complete strangers.

(Hey Nameless [that's one of the people that compose Python], isn't my math both technically correct and extremely irritating at the same time?)

EBWOP

[usesPython]

To add clarification to this, my partner plays else where with an experienced group. When I showed interest in wanting to play too, he directed me to this site because they have space for newbs to learn the ropes instead of jumping in cold to a game with a bunch of players who all know each other... which it seems I wasn't able to avoid.

lol that's actually unfortunate, but only 55% percent of us know each other, the other 44% are complete strangers.

(Hey Nameless [that's one of the people that compose Python], isn't my math both technically correct and extremely irritating at the same time?)

EBWOP

It's not technically correct because if you're rounding percentages then that should be 56%/44% or 55.6%/44.4% in the original

-Nameless

[Aneninen]

Can anyone tell me whether Kittie's playing in this way all the time?

Huh? That's her first game.

Gimli, 177 - Wellshirt, you're not the only one without scumreads here

Explain?
195 - VIP, I am not sure why but I can't decipher this post. Could you please explain to me what you mean here?
Conclusion (for Pages 7-8):
VIP, Knott and Gimli pretty towny
Timmer has slight towniness
Python is towny

(1) Yeah, my bad.
(2) At that point there were quite a lot of players who didn't have enough scumreads (or who had no scumreads at all.)

Yes, the underlined part disturbs me, too.
Especially because most players are townreading me in spite of my reads.
I know it's sheer speculation and it's "too early" for saying things like this now*, but what if the scum are among those who're townreading me right now?
*There it goes, Kittie, a "too early" from me.

I'm not sure what part you missed. But I'll rephrase it for you.
Firstly. Not only was it disturbing that I had too many scumreads (which alone means that I misread some players). The fact that most players were townreading me meanwhile gave me a vibe that there were scum among those who were townreading me, because of a logic like "oh, let's give Aneninen a pass and let him live. After all, everyone thinks he's reading the game in the wrong way, so even if he finds scum, noone will follow him."

This I don't understand because you should know that I do this as town and there's literally no reason to think it's scummy of me - I don't think I've ever done that as scum, ever.

I know you do it as town, but why does that make a play I would normally attribute to scum/scum-aligned no longer scummy? It's not a full one-on-one comparison but lets say someone has a habit of fake-claiming and they do this as town too - if it later came to light that they fakeclaimed in a game then you'd still be justified seeing it as scummy, no? I've only seen one scumgame of you (and it was a late-game replacement, if I remember right?) so that's not really enough of a sample-size for me to know it's something you wouldn't do as scum.

???
I don't really like when a player uses the "you know my townplay so you have to know that I'm town now". That's NAI at best. Or at least, I used to know very few player who had big differences between their town and scumplay. Other factors, such as game size, Setup type, even drowing a PR or the time they have to play make much more significant differences.

A bit off, but fake-claiming as town, apart from some special situations, was anti-town years ago. I guess it's still so now.

Hmmm... this is a weirdly passive day 1. There's been some stuff slung about but nothing that's really stuck or held for long, I'm kinda tempted for everyone to share their current elimination pools (list of people you'd be okay with executing today) and seeing if we can establish some common block here just so we can prompt some more pointed poking here and narrow the focus further. Thoughts?

I too think it's weridly passive.
Your idea's valid, but what if it's passive because neither of the scum is remotely in danger now? I know it's speculative, but it's a possibility.

I'm kinda zoned out of this game and don't remember anything anymore sorry
I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

This gave me bad vibes.
Especially because the passivity, as far as I can remember, started when the votes and suspections were moved away from Gimli.


Post-edit.

Are you just wagoning me?
Can you wait until I read the game?

[Cometbright]

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

[Black]

I decided I like Black this game

What prompted this thought?

IDK DE,

you're being overly sure of things

I need more Black in this game

This is cute but you'll have to wait for the weekend to be over

[usesPython]

VIP at E-1? Yep, it's funny flashwagon time

VOTE: VIP

[Cometbright]

Your idea's valid, but what if it's passive because neither of the scum is remotely in danger now? I know it's speculative, but it's a possibility.

Not impossible - but either way a passive town is a dead town. My worry right now is that the game keeps chugging along all slow and then we just do a compromise last minute execute at the end of the day and get very little info from it as a result. If we discuss out the executions then if we execute scum, great - and if we execute a townie then we'll have some meat (posts and discussion) to work with for the vote-count analysis afterwards if that makes sense.

[Cometbright]

Uh...

[Black]

That hammer is pretty sus

[Cometbright]

Was that a hammer? I literally just wrote a post saying we need proper discussion so we have valuable VCA

[Black]

I think it was yeah. He didn't even get the chance to claim lol

If VIP flips town I think DE70 and Python have the worst votes on the wagon