Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[jjh927]

In fact doesn't your 271 assume STD is town?

[Dannflor]

VC 1.8

The Sound of Water

Save The Dragons [5]:

camelCasedSnivy, Shirou, Ydrasse, Alisae, Prism

T3 [2]:

imaginality, Firebringer

Prism [1]:

Save The Dragons

Not Voting [5]:

patchwork, gob, Andresvmb, T3, jjh927

With 13 on-board, it takes 7 to force someone to walk the plank. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-10-22 18:36:06).

Mod Notes:

Alisae replaces Xegarus!

[Firebringer]

This is E-1. Scum should instantly blitz, town should post to say they are not doing so.

As the resident open scum player. You do tempt me with this.
But I will refrain for now

Want to see dragons make the epic comeback and win the duel

[Firebringer]

Ohh jjh unvoted anyways

[Firebringer]

Did you just ignore the eminence in shadow btw

best show. season 2 episode 2 was actually really boring and unfunny tho

[jjh927]

Yeah see what would have happened if firebringer here had just lolhammered for funsies

What are the possible outcomes in terms of the information we get there

[Firebringer]

i mean i did laugh that Cid is still usuing marys lines even in front of her but i thought it would be funnier if she even acknowledged it like "that sounds familiar" or something. I feel like a lot missed opportunities for good humor. Manga was more funny

[jjh927]

Did you just ignore the eminence in shadow btw

best show. season 2 episode 2 was actually really boring and unfunny tho

The moon is red. The frenzy has begun. We are out of time

[Firebringer]

the season openner was really great though, loved the throne room scene with cid saying he smells it and all the garden think he is smelling them with eta even spraying perfume or something. got a kick out of that

[T3]

VOTE: ydrasse

real

is t3 ok?

sorry i have zoomeritis

[T3]

I'm not convinced that StD is scum at all

[Save The Dragons]

I'm sorry we are rushing in this setup because........why?

[Save The Dragons]

There are multiple people who have posted 0 or 1 time and you're ready to end the day on me? Yuck

[camelCasedSnivy]

This is E-1. Scum should instantly blitz, town should post to say they are not doing so.

It means nothing if those same qualities make you an excellent vote candidate.

I spent much of the morning waiting to see if there would be a point where many of the current voters were offline. This did not happen, and the timezones are now out of sync and make it very unlikely to happen.

I intended to vote and allow scum to either blitz or for non-voting town players to acknowledge the hammer opportunity. I considered this a win-win.

The gap did not happen. This makes the utility of this vote very unlikely. Someone will likely save you, but I will gladly take the chance to simply kill you or have players publicly pass on the hammer while I can.

VOTE: Dragons

lol what

[camelCasedSnivy]

in fact can we wait until gob and andres get replacements

[Prism]

I figured that would happen but it is still unfortunate that no one got to check in between the vote/unvote.

I wondered why Prism hadn't considered you actually scum-reading them as a likely possibility. Added with your history of apparently misreading them, if we assume Prism is town, it felt a bit puzzling that they thought you had to be doing it for a purpose other than suspecting them.

You are making the opposite mistake of Firebringer as described in 140.

I did not assume a scumread as suggested by Firebringer, but did think it likely. This is most obvious in my post 118: "There are two

good

reasons for him specifically to vote me that way

with zero substance

".

First, voting to annoy me and see what happens can help pursue a scumread, and I explicitly thought this was a good idea. Annoying me to see what happens really could be a good play, and he wouldn't be the first to sort me that way. It sucks for me when that's the tactic, but if it works it works.

Second, if there is a scumread but not an intent to annoy me, voting me

without explanation

is a

bad

idea. It is denying other players the chance to agree with his reasoning and any degree of insight into his sincerity.

Thus, if one of his goals was to see me voted out or to pursue the scumread,

consider changing tactics.

My motivation in expressing annoyance was not to vent, but on the off-chance that clear knowledge and feedback

somehow

improve his reads and indirectly help me as a result. My feedback on changing tactics was sincere, I wanted him to take it, I believed it to be useful, and it was very short and direct because I know his time is more valuable and scarce than my own.

---

If StD voted Prism because he was suspicious, why didn't he say so when Prism was talking about him "only doing it to annoy him or for reactions" for example?

It's a minor thing but it kinda bugs me that it took me asking him to confirm whether Prism said was right or not. Wouldn't the normal behavior be to explain shortly "I'm voting you because I think you're scum" rather than "uh okay" and dip out?

The lack of explanation is not indicative. He never plays that way. There are four answers to this working together harmoniously. The first is that I'm a jerk and don't deserve it. Other players are irrelevant to this reason. The second is that sometimes he does not have time to play that way. The third is that he rarely wants to play that way regardless. The fourth is that it makes it significantly easier to play scum if he does not play that way.

---

I don't think I see the utility here that you do

Dragons is a player that often skirts the nullish line, as he will readily admit. I don't view voting him out on the basis that he has a lower chance of being resolved through dayplay as negative EV. This is a policy judgment, but one that is comparative to other players and not in isolation. I wouldn't care if Dragons AFK voted me, refused to speak with me all game, and spammed up the game with 20 pages of nonsense so long as I think he can be accurately read, and if he can be accurately read without doing any of those things then that is all the better.

If I have an active scumread, I will always prioritize that vote. But until Dragons towntells or I am convinced another player will be harder to resolve by future dayplay, I will always be happy to vote the slot.

---

Scum don't have an obligation to instantly hammer if STD is town, but anyone theoretically could. If your instinct on a townflip would be to beat the hammerer with a stick then I think we could find ourselves going downhill very quickly.

I actually forgot that Day 1 does not have an escape mechanic available Night 1; I joined last time on Day 2.

My mindset was that a scum that blitzes instantly escapes. If the hammering player doesn't escape, we qualitatively evaluate on Day 2. I definitely did not mind a town hammer, but I would have preferred explicit passovers. This would have made the probability of Dragons being scum go up with every passover.

[Prism]

I am known to utilize some extremely cheesy spitball gambits in the same vein, but I think forgetting the lack of a Day 1 escape mechanic and thinking there were 4 scum is likely to wind up the strongest set of town-indicative set posts I will make all game. The very methodical timing and context behind it would be extremely bizarre.

[Dannflor]

Prodding gob.

[patchwork]

yall think i should read back or just throw myself into posting

[Firebringer]

i barely bother reading to begin with.
i think im going to be tuning out prism posts soon.

brain not big enough for all the words prism puts in posts.

[Firebringer]

my brain is mushed right now from work. and i don't have the capacity to do reading comprehension on what prism is putting down.

[Prism]

I remember my first time reading "The Very Hungry Caterpillar". You'll get there.

[jjh927]

I figured that would happen but it is still unfortunate that no one got to check in between the vote/unvote.

I wondered why Prism hadn't considered you actually scum-reading them as a likely possibility. Added with your history of apparently misreading them, if we assume Prism is town, it felt a bit puzzling that they thought you had to be doing it for a purpose other than suspecting them.

You are making the opposite mistake of Firebringer as described in 140.

I did not assume a scumread as suggested by Firebringer, but did think it likely. This is most obvious in my post 118: "There are two

good

reasons for him specifically to vote me that way

with zero substance

".

First, voting to annoy me and see what happens can help pursue a scumread, and I explicitly thought this was a good idea. Annoying me to see what happens really could be a good play, and he wouldn't be the first to sort me that way. It sucks for me when that's the tactic, but if it works it works.

Second, if there is a scumread but not an intent to annoy me, voting me

without explanation

is a

bad

idea. It is denying other players the chance to agree with his reasoning and any degree of insight into his sincerity.

Thus, if one of his goals was to see me voted out or to pursue the scumread,

consider changing tactics.

My motivation in expressing annoyance was not to vent, but on the off-chance that clear knowledge and feedback

somehow

improve his reads and indirectly help me as a result. My feedback on changing tactics was sincere, I wanted him to take it, I believed it to be useful, and it was very short and direct because I know his time is more valuable and scarce than my own.

---

If StD voted Prism because he was suspicious, why didn't he say so when Prism was talking about him "only doing it to annoy him or for reactions" for example?

It's a minor thing but it kinda bugs me that it took me asking him to confirm whether Prism said was right or not. Wouldn't the normal behavior be to explain shortly "I'm voting you because I think you're scum" rather than "uh okay" and dip out?

The lack of explanation is not indicative. He never plays that way. There are four answers to this working together harmoniously. The first is that I'm a jerk and don't deserve it. Other players are irrelevant to this reason. The second is that sometimes he does not have time to play that way. The third is that he rarely wants to play that way regardless. The fourth is that it makes it significantly easier to play scum if he does not play that way.

---

I don't think I see the utility here that you do

Dragons is a player that often skirts the nullish line, as he will readily admit. I don't view voting him out on the basis that he has a lower chance of being resolved through dayplay as negative EV. This is a policy judgment, but one that is comparative to other players and not in isolation. I wouldn't care if Dragons AFK voted me, refused to speak with me all game, and spammed up the game with 20 pages of nonsense so long as I think he can be accurately read, and if he can be accurately read without doing any of those things then that is all the better.

If I have an active scumread, I will always prioritize that vote. But until Dragons towntells or I am convinced another player will be harder to resolve by future dayplay, I will always be happy to vote the slot.

---

Scum don't have an obligation to instantly hammer if STD is town, but anyone theoretically could. If your instinct on a townflip would be to beat the hammerer with a stick then I think we could find ourselves going downhill very quickly.

I actually forgot that Day 1 does not have an escape mechanic available Night 1; I joined last time on Day 2.

My mindset was that a scum that blitzes instantly escapes. If the hammering player doesn't escape, we qualitatively evaluate on Day 2. I definitely did not mind a town hammer, but I would have preferred explicit passovers. This would have made the probability of Dragons being scum go up with every passover.

Scum don't get an escape mechanic on day 2 either if we don't collectively suck. If we get a scum on day 1 it is a very big deal. Don't policy people in this setup a few days into day 1.1

Also just as a reminder, if we don't suck we get 5 conftowns per scum killed in these 2 days. Which is probably most of the people on wagon if we only get 1.

[Save The Dragons]

Wait you're policying me

[Prism]

my brain is mushed right now from work. and i don't have the capacity to do reading comprehension on what prism is putting down.

Part of playing mafia is playing as a team, and that means accommodating to each other's strengths and weaknesses. It means working together and being there for one another.

I hear you, Firebringer. I will pick you up when you are down. I am willing to go the distance.