Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[Andresvmb]

In any event, even though I haven’t gotten to some defense on why gob is Town or whatever, I think that’s the slot that’s easily the most likely to be Scum and the one I think the Town can converge on.

I’ll try to read some of the last set of pages I have and maybe I’ll be up to date.

[Andresvmb]

Gob and Prism have done the "early distancing and then softening" pattern this game and now both vote me makes me wonder if they could be partners. I think if so then that points to Titus town and them wanting to redirect today's lim to another townie now the Titus wagon has started to dwindle.

I mean basically this.

[Andresvmb]

I think Prism's pushed camel a bit too seriously today to be distancing.

I don't know what to make of Prism's interactions with Firebringer. Doesn't give me alignment pings on either.

My retroactive response to this would be that Prism sitting off the camel wagon after distancing in the way that they have, if camel had been flipped, would have been somewhat catastrophic. They can probably ride the town cred to a victory. And guess what, pushing Prism in this game is a near impossibility precisely because of that. Even though they did direct the votes in a way Scum would be likely to do given the game state.

But who knows. I’m just speculating. I never claimed to be good at this.

[Prism]

I'm sorry but all I have to say to the suggestion it is myself and gob, largely because it is 1AM, is the following:

L M A O

[Prism]

The idea that I have to tunnel you here to win. Oh my god the hubris.

[Prism]

Someone definitely did not read Day 1 holy guacamole lmfao

[Andresvmb]

I don't really understand Titus's townreads this game. She has Dragons and camel as very town. This seems to be based entirely off of analyzing the Dragons wagon in VC 1.8.

Titus is assuming Dragons is town because Ydrasse slipped, Alisae might be town, and an Alisae-town wagon implies a Dragons-town wagon. This is already way off the rails. She then postulates there is no more than 2 scum on the Dragons wagon. It is still unclear to me where this camel read is coming from or why Dragons is hardtown. This was before Alisae even flipped.

Add on the very wrong jjh push and I'm willing to flip the slot.

My preference right now is Titus, camel Dragons, imaginality, Andres, Ydrasse in that order. I don't know how to square Firebringer being scum with those top 2 and I'm not going to try for now.

VOTE: Titus

I went back and forth on this one. camel v. Titus is extremely close in my mind. I thought camel's annoyance earlier might be town, but I think his angle before would have been "this is a no u slapfight" and that "you're not going to reevaluate me whatever" furthers the same end. His progression on me has been wonky across time. I can see him being town but I don't have any strong scumreads this game.

Like C’MON. How can, at this stage, after all the posturing around camel and the strong shade on Firebringer, end this post with “I don’t have any strong SRs this game”?! I’m guessing camel Scum (now escaped), all others Town, winning pool for Scum. Ydrasse is Town, I now think STD is Town (wouldn’t die on this), I think imaginality is Town, and I know I’m Town.

Alright I’m okay with my own demise here. I’m going to lose to what has been positioned as a bus from an experienced Scum player who redirected the vote onto two different Town players D1 and D2? I mean it’s masterful.

[Andresvmb]

Someone definitely did not read Day 1 holy guacamole lmfao

I’ve clearly read D1. I mean, that’s kind of a silly accusation.

Look we’re not going to see eye to eye. You’ll find ways of discrediting my views. That’s whatever. Save it. I think I’m doomed. I also don’t think you have to win a 1v1 against me specifically. That’s not what I think I said. But whatever, again, I find it really unlikely that I get my way. I don’t think imaginality is Scum but if they get flipped and we magically win, great. It would have been done without me and I’d be wrong and I would take the victory. It’s funny - I think when I play somewhat poorly (get reads wrong, but still try, so I don’t get mis-executed), I find myself more likely to be on the winning Team. I’m hoping that happens here. I also think Dragons is Town but I’ll admit that’s more emotion based. It’s not a straightforward conclusion because they have made themselves harder to read. I will probably ISO there just to confirm my view for myself once I’m done but sure, could be wrong there.

Anyway. Back to reading.

[Andresvmb]

There’s a part of me that thinks Prism maybe doesn’t put this much effort into trying to figure out the meta of players as Scum? Is that a reasonable thought?

[Prism]

Alright I’m okay with my own demise here. I’m going to lose to what has been positioned as a bus from an experienced Scum player who redirected the vote onto two different Town players D1 and D2? I mean it’s masterful.

This has to be one of the hardest meltdowns I have seen in my life. You unironically suggested myself and gob, then typed this paragraph and legitimately thought it was a good idea.

For everyone, this is a link to gob and my's combined ISOs. Please read from #360 to #503, for starters.

Bonus post where I bus both of my partners on Day 1.

Maybe my strategy is to passive-aggressively insult, run circles around, and openly ridicule/demotivate my two partners all game long. What a play that would be.

[Andresvmb]

Wild that you can see me dig up 4 different games of imaginality's trying to figure out how he plays, pull up another read of camel's to try and validate his comparison, and dig through your entire ISO to find what your reads are and why you have them, but still think I have zero interest in listening. Absolutely wild.

Like this is far more effort than I would ever be willing to entertain as Scum. But then what, T3 is Scum? Imaginality is simply faking the whole woe is me act, Scum are openly colluding to take me down? That did strike me as somewhat outlandish. And I may just be irritated with Prism being so certain I’m Scum and yet getting to many things wrong but still consistently pushing whatever they think to the bitter end. Like it has to be balanced with how often they did actually go back to camel. Like if I’m struggling with it, it’s that.

[Prism]

There’s a part of me that thinks Prism maybe doesn’t put this much effort into trying to figure out the meta of players as Scum? Is that a reasonable thought?

Really? THIS is the suggestion you're worried is unsound and a bridge too far?

[Andresvmb]

The idea that I have to tunnel you here to win. Oh my god the hubris.

This is rich from you if we’re being fair.

[Andresvmb]

Gob and Prism have done the "early distancing and then softening" pattern this game and now both vote me makes me wonder if they could be partners. I think if so then that points to Titus town and them wanting to redirect today's lim to another townie now the Titus wagon has started to dwindle.

I mean basically this.

Like if we’re being objective for a minute now, this is a difficult accusation to logically defend. Okay fine, you start with the premise that you’re Town. Of course. And you could theoretically argue that gob and Prism could be partnered though honestly I just separately SR’ed them, I don’t think I would ever argue for it as a Team solve just because they “lightly shaded each other”. But to then conclude Titus is Town from that? This could easily be TMI.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t have much confidence in Prism being Scum. I can’t. That probably carries too much risk.

I would vote amongst {gob, imaginality} then, hope to get it right.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry for the detour. I’ll finish up reading but it’s getting late for me again. I’ve sat here and read for 3 hours so I need to stop.

[Prism]

The idea that I have to tunnel you here to win. Oh my god the hubris.

This is rich from you if we’re being fair.

If I am scum the chance that I lose this game is zero as long as my partner is not Save the Dragons, in which case it is still 90%+. I can win this game in my sleep in fifty different ways. Several players have mentioned this, yourself included.

You cannot say the same. You are getting pressured extremely hard by the single most active voice in the game. Every time you have tried to move, I have immediately pounced and pulled out the receipts to dismantle the few substantive arguments you have trotted out.

You can be a much more intelligent, skilled, and experienced player than I am to any degree that you please. It is very obvious that our positions in this game are not even slightly comparable.

Your most successful argument of the last ~5 pages is essentially that I am a jerk and it sucks to be pushed by me. I don't think any of us dispute that.

[Prism]

I am very open with what I don't know and my own limitations, particularly with regards to alignment and conclusions. I don't believe

any

exceptional Paragons exist. I think the upper-bound for good scumhunters is universally lower than people think. Worse, I am nowhere close to that upper-bound and it takes an immense amount of work just to get my reads above-average. I am always very open about the fact that I am wrong in my alignment guesses like clockwork.

On the other hand, there's a reason that the receipts always seem to come out in my favor, why when I do make a mistake or miss a point I am usually the first to highlight and correct it, and why I almost always get the upper-hand in arguments, even when everything about my attitude and condescension makes it seem so unfair and like I

have

to be wrong for there to be any justice in the world.

The reason is not that I am a silver-tongued sophist who uses some unseen sleight-of-hand to turn the table. The reason is that I am a relentless perfectionist who has been doing this since I was a small child, and I hate being wrong or committing an error more than anything else in the world. l am very abrasive and frequently contemptuous, but I am extremely thorough in my fact-checking and selective in my argumentation.

Except there's never a need to doublecheck the setup on Day 1!

[Prism]

Time to sleep, but to be clear my last two posts aren't a real response to your arguments. I think my earlier posts suffice for that.

I posted those more to get it off of my chest. It is an issue that has perpetually annoyed me all game. I genuinely think my reads are no more than 10% more accurate than the average player's even with 20x the effort. Meanwhile everyone else thinks they're scumhunting jesus and acts like I willfully ran over their pet cat when I point out their worldviews do not match reality, they misinterpreted an argument, or their argumentative castles are built on sand.

[Andresvmb]

The idea that I have to tunnel you here to win. Oh my god the hubris.

This is rich from you if we’re being fair.

If I am scum the chance that I lose this game is zero as long as my partner is not Save the Dragons, in which case it is still 90%+. I can win this game in my sleep in fifty different ways. Several players have mentioned this, yourself included.

You cannot say the same. You are getting pressured extremely hard by the single most active voice in the game. Every time you have tried to move, I have immediately pounced and pulled out the receipts to dismantle the few substantive arguments you have trotted out.

You can be a much more intelligent, skilled, and experienced player than I am to any degree that you please. It is very obvious that our positions in this game are not even slightly comparable.

Your most successful argument of the last ~5 pages is essentially that I am a jerk and it sucks to be pushed by me. I don't think any of us dispute that.

I think you overestimate how Towny you come across in the game. And I don’t mean to state the obvious, but being loud about your positions doesn’t make you right. I happen to have the inside knowledge that you’re way off about my alignment. If you’re Town, that’s not particularly helpful, though it’s not as impactful as you’re implying. As you can see from the latest vote count, I think the only vote I have on me is yours.

This idea that you’re “pouncing on my arguments” to essentially keep me in a corner is a bit laughable. I’m not putting out my thoughts to convince you about anything. You’re arrogant, and wrong, and unlikely to change your mind. But we can still win even if you’re Town and pushing in the wrong direction.


I don’t know what receipts you’re talking about either. I have directly quoted posts from players and shared my thoughts as they evolve. Since Titus didn’t flip Scum, and you (Prism) decided at a key time to move away from voting your biggest and most consistent SR in camel for Titus (see 2392), I don’t know what you’re even bragging about.

Your latest set of posts implies that I’m not aware of my own position in the game. Which is silly - I’ve openly admitted multiple times to not feeling like I’m going to have much influence in the game. But that’s okay. It can’t be the case every time.

[Andresvmb]

Imaginality being a CW to Scum very close to the end of D2 and almost going through (with camel voting there for survival, only to then switch to Titus) makes it so that I can’t for the life of me want to vote there.

[Andresvmb]

Gob is by far the best vote, and nothing Prism says is going to change that.

[Prism]

It is no longer 1a and I don't have much interest in responding to 3244 except to reiterate what was in the original quote-the idea scum-Prism has to tunnel you to win the game is blatantly wrong, while the idea scum-Andres might feel the need to protest every post of mine tooth and nail is not.

[Prism]

I am again encouraging you to respond to my gob read on the merits, for probably the third or fourth time.

[Lazy Shirou]

I agree with Prism that the idea he has to tunnel Andres to win sounds weird

but actually it doesn't sound as weird if his partner is, say, T3 or so. Because he can still lose by us eliminating his partner even if he would never be limmed himself. In a normal setup there would be barely any point to keep paranoia about Prism but theoretically speaking I could see how it benefits scum!Prism to tunnel someone.

Except...he could also just have gone along with JJH on StD if he was scum and his partner isn't StD, yeah.