Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[Lazy Shirou]

Andres was arguing that I should be voted in D2 just for being wrong on Ali even when he suspected Ali himself at some point in D1.

It never stopped me rubbing me the wrong way in a similar fashion that Camel continuously voting inactives in the start of the game did, but I was overlooking it because there was always shinier stuff to think/consider and I now do know that if I followed my initial gut on Camel rather than overthink we would have flipped scum by now I guess

[Andresvmb]

@Andres Your argument on me back in D2 was terrible, your argument on Prism being scum right now is terrible and the way you're complaining about being voted/suspecting Prism for poor reasons is JUST LIKE Camel.

Dunno, wouldn't be sad to see you flipped I guess

You do know camel and I are not the same player right? What the hell does it matter for determining my alignment how camel complained about being SR?

[Andresvmb]

I’ve read every post. I have this nagging feeling I have a blind spot, so I may do a few ISOs. I will not be voting imaginality today. I also want it considered that I’ve sheeped jjh in this game a lot and called them Town, and you Prism have very many times argued consistently that jjh very much seems to be Town given their predisposition say in their dealings with STD. Like it should give you some pause that as Scum, I’ve then given Town a double vote for large chunks of this game.

If I were to pull up Mafia451 and find a game where you were scum and Ellibereth was town, I wouldn't happen to find a similar strategy to the one here in any game, would I?

This isn’t specific enough. What strategy do you think I would be replicating?

[Lazy Shirou]

@Andres Your argument on me back in D2 was terrible, your argument on Prism being scum right now is terrible and the way you're complaining about being voted/suspecting Prism for poor reasons is JUST LIKE Camel.

Dunno, wouldn't be sad to see you flipped I guess

You do know camel and I are not the same player right? What the hell does it matter for determining my alignment how camel complained about being SR?

Andres discovers that the entire philosophy about scum hunting is finding traits we think different scum are likely to do across the board/games, pictured, 2023

[Lazy Shirou]

I'm arguing that Camel did some classically scummy things, you're doing classically scummy things too, and although not definitive I think it's a good reason to think the odds of you being scum are higher.

[Lazy Shirou]

The fact you keep emphasizing from even back then whether you or others were "voting for town" or not, along with the way you began to address T3 as you felt compelled to vote there, it just gives me the impression of someone worried about their image post-flips and that's another thing I would consider classically scummy

[Prism]

This isn’t specific enough. What strategy do you think I would be replicating?

Offering up your vote to him as a means to get townread. Fortunately, I wouldn't have asked if I had actually been able to find a game of it.

Statistically I just don't think making a town Day 1 doublevoter is a disaster.

[Andresvmb]

Making a bad argument doesn’t make me Scum. Otherwise, where is your SR of gob? And I’ve barely been complaining about being SR’ed. If anything I’ve been openly justifying it, over and over. I’ve been annoyed at the arrogance and certainty displayed by Prism, who sunk Titus under similar circumstances, because they have had me as sure Scum before I really got into the game. Like if you want to cast me with a broad brush, go ahead.

I also haven’t made any sort of detailed argument about Prism being Scum btw. I have been far more consistent about gob. If you want to be all salty because you I felt you could be Scum because you tunneled Town, by all means. I don’t see why that’s completely unreasonable.

[Lazy Shirou]

I also haven’t made any sort of detailed argument about Prism being Scum btw

exactly

just like Camel

it seems to be there because Prism is pushing you

[Prism]

I’ve read every post. I have this nagging feeling I have a blind spot, so I may do a few ISOs. I will not be voting imaginality today. I also want it considered that I’ve sheeped jjh in this game a lot and called them Town, and you Prism have very many times argued consistently that jjh very much seems to be Town given their predisposition say in their dealings with STD. Like it should give you some pause that as Scum, I’ve then given Town a double vote for large chunks of this game.

Unfortunately, I actually did just find an example of you displaying this exact behavior as scum, with the same lack of time explanation you've presented here as a bonus.

I’m back tomorrow btw.

Also,

@RTP what you voting? I’ll follow you today since I’m quite a bit behind and it’s an easy way for me to figure out what you are.

You never did answer my question though about IV but I don’t think IV has come back at all so I’m not sure there’s that much to say anyway.

The only real difference as far as I can tell is that you called jjh hardtown instead of framing it as a feeler.

Very unlucky!

[Andresvmb]

I'm arguing that Camel did some classically scummy things, you're doing classically scummy things too, and although not definitive I think it's a good reason to think the odds of you being scum are higher.

I can’t argue against generalities. If you want to ask specific questions, I’ll answer. It’s like impossible for me to argue against supposed “classically Scummy things” I’ve done. It’s like you think Town never gets annoyed about being SR’ed, or complains about their position in the game, which is incorrect in my view.

[Andresvmb]

I also haven’t made any sort of detailed argument about Prism being Scum btw

exactly

just like Camel

it seems to be there because Prism is pushing you

Maybe, just maybe, I have another player in mind that I think is more likely to flip Scum?

[Lazy Shirou]

and Gob just feels like bleeding town trying a tinfoil theory on Firebringer

Saying you're more dedicated to limming one of my most town read slots isn't something positive in my PoV

I could be wrong on Gob but I would be very surprised on this point if I was unless T3 is his partner

[Lazy Shirou]

I would have an existential crisis if T3 is town and Gob for some reason decided it was an amazing idea to start casing Firebringer out of nowhere like that as scum

That confidence in his methods and out-of-nowhere approach, It just...looks like obvtown

[Andresvmb]

The fact you keep emphasizing from even back then whether you or others were "voting for town" or not, along with the way you began to address T3 as you felt compelled to vote there, it just gives me the impression of someone worried about their image post-flips and that's another thing I would consider classically scummy

So voting for Town is not information that’s relevant then? And when have I ever demonstrated any willingness to vote T3? I said I would do it for self-preservation if forced to do it, but I don’t recall ever calling T3 Scum, or jumping on their wagon. And do you really think I would care all that much about my image post-flip? Can’t I just escape tonight if I sort of skate by, while perhaps confining my comments to a few slots?

[Lazy Shirou]

There's way more town than scum so obviously townies are gonna vote other townies quite often from mathematics alone

My argument is that trying to keep tab on "how many townies I helped miseliminate or not" comes more likely from overly self-aware scum than town

It's really quite normal for townies to vote townies, otherwise miseliminations would never even happen

[Andresvmb]

I’ve read every post. I have this nagging feeling I have a blind spot, so I may do a few ISOs. I will not be voting imaginality today. I also want it considered that I’ve sheeped jjh in this game a lot and called them Town, and you Prism have very many times argued consistently that jjh very much seems to be Town given their predisposition say in their dealings with STD. Like it should give you some pause that as Scum, I’ve then given Town a double vote for large chunks of this game.

Unfortunately, I actually did just find an example of you displaying this exact behavior as scum, with the same lack of time explanation you've presented here as a bonus.

I’m back tomorrow btw.

Also,

@RTP what you voting? I’ll follow you today since I’m quite a bit behind and it’s an easy way for me to figure out what you are.

You never did answer my question though about IV but I don’t think IV has come back at all so I’m not sure there’s that much to say anyway.

The only real difference as far as I can tell is that you called jjh hardtown instead of framing it as a feeler.

Very unlucky!

Me not having time to post is NAI. There’s multiple games I have played here where I have clearly fallen behind and been open about it, as both alignments. And I’m going to say this and it may sound a bit harsh, but I don’t give a fuck about whether you believe my comments about my real life or not. It would be absolutely pathetic for me to lie about whether I’m actually busy or not to gain a supposed advantage, and I really don’t have to lie about my life in a game of mafia. Like honestly, what a stupid argument. I have literally not in a single game I’ve played used an excuse about what’s going on in my life to gain an advantage. Real life interferes, and that’s just what it is.

[Lazy Shirou]

I do at least personally know that as scum I'm usually on less miseliminations than as town

if I feel like a miselimination will go through regardless of whether I'm supporting it or not, as scum I'm more inclined to park my vote elsewhere to not tarnish my image while as town I may be more inclined to hammer/join late if I feel the wagon has any sort of potential

[Andresvmb]

There's way more town than scum so obviously townies are gonna vote other townies quite often from mathematics alone

My argument is that trying to keep tab on "how many townies I helped miseliminate or not" comes more likely from overly self-aware scum than town

It's really quite normal for townies to vote townies, otherwise miseliminations would never even happen

You’re framing it as if the only thing I’ve pointed out is whether a player voted for a Town or not, instead of also considering the length of time the vote was out, the context of the vote, the argument made, etc. Quote one time I said something basic like well they voted for Town D1 and D2 so they must be Scum.

Keeping tabs on who helped push what and for what reasons is obviously important. Of course Town is going to vote for Town. No one is perfect. I don’t know why you feel the need to talk to me as if I was in my second game of mafia.

[Prism]

Me not having time to post is NAI. There’s multiple games I have played here where I have clearly fallen behind and been open about it, as both alignments. And I’m going to say this and it may sound a bit harsh, but I don’t give a fuck about whether you believe my comments about my real life or not. It would be absolutely pathetic for me to lie about whether I’m actually busy or not to gain a supposed advantage, and I really don’t have to lie about my life in a game of mafia. Like honestly, what a stupid argument. I have literally not in a single game I’ve played used an excuse about what’s going on in my life to gain an advantage. Real life interferes, and that’s just what it is.

At no point have I implied you were lying about your IRL.

You told me that a specific behavior of yours this game "should give me pause" and suggest that you are town. I hunted down a post where you did the same thing-gave a town player a doublevote-under similar circumstances-restrained by your time limitations.

The implication is not that you lied about your real life. The implication is that you have done exactly what you did this game as scum, despite your insistence that I should townread it.

[Andresvmb]

and Gob just feels like bleeding town trying a tinfoil theory on Firebringer

Saying you're more dedicated to limming one of my most town read slots isn't something positive in my PoV

I could be wrong on Gob but I would be very surprised on this point if I was unless T3 is his partner

We have different perceptions on gob. Doesn’t make me Scum! gob may well be Town. Like you said, it’s entirely possible that the tinfoil arguments being put forth are coming from an uninformed perspective. I have faced enough resistance on these points that surely I know I need to think about it. But outside of saying that I believe gob is the best vote, or that I really don’t think imaginality is Scum, I have not said that 100% I’m right and you’re all idiots.

[Andresvmb]

Me not having time to post is NAI. There’s multiple games I have played here where I have clearly fallen behind and been open about it, as both alignments. And I’m going to say this and it may sound a bit harsh, but I don’t give a fuck about whether you believe my comments about my real life or not. It would be absolutely pathetic for me to lie about whether I’m actually busy or not to gain a supposed advantage, and I really don’t have to lie about my life in a game of mafia. Like honestly, what a stupid argument. I have literally not in a single game I’ve played used an excuse about what’s going on in my life to gain an advantage. Real life interferes, and that’s just what it is.

At no point have I implied you were lying about your IRL.

You told me that a specific behavior of yours this game "should give me pause" and suggest that you are town. I hunted down a post where you did the same thing-gave a town player a doublevote-under similar circumstances-restrained by your time limitations.

The implication is not that you lied about your real life. The implication is that you have done exactly what you did this game as scum, despite your insistence that I should townread it.

So the overall structure of the game doesn’t change the impact of acting like a double voter on what we agree is a Towny slot? No chance that the differences in game structure maybe make the strategy a valid play as a pocket attempt in one, and a much riskier gambit here? Not possible?

[T3]

Maybe Shirou and Prism and Andres are all town

[Prism]

So the overall structure of the game doesn’t change the impact of acting like a double voter on what we agree is a Towny slot? No chance that the differences in game structure maybe make the strategy a valid play as a pocket attempt in one, and a much riskier gambit here? Not possible?

I was recently told a joke by a federal circuit judge about the power of arguing from precedent. The gist of it was that while questioning a lawyer about a legal holding in a car accident, the lawyer says "Your Honor, the facts in these cases could not be further apart. First off, the driver in that case was named John Doe, but mine is named Joe Smith. Second, the car in that case was blue, this one was red, making it more noticeable to the common eye..." and so on.

I think you are making a bold attempt to distinguish the games that falls very short. Eliminating scum Day 1 is really bad in a 13p mini normal. Eliminating scum is really bad in this game. I'd wager the EVs are close to the same.

Again, you might be town anyway, but I doubt that this is the key indicator holds any water.

[Prism]

Maybe Shirou and Prism and Andres are all town

Maybe, but I haven't seen a good reason to townread Andres all game, he's still arguing to vote one of my strongest townreads, and this latest meta discovery isn't helping.