In post 1267, Black wrote:
I could definitely be wrong here. I don't think I am though
I'll try to look through OWER's games when I get to my PC
@OWER: Have you rolled scum on here before?
Once, in Mini Normal 2179. However, I'm unsure in how useful it would be for determining my alignment in this game because I had the good fortune that game to roll a scumteam with both Flavor Leaf and Alchemist and I essentially got hard carried that game. My memories of that game are mostly me lurking out while FL blew smoke everywhere.
"you think me having bad reads is scum indicative! I have bad reads all the time! That's why I'm not willing to listen to you about how bad my read is!"
I'm not scum reading you for the read exactly, I'm scum reading you because you seem unwilling to interact with why the read might be wrong and because the way you're going about pushing it and interacting with me about it is scummy as fuck.
In post 1277, Thestatusquo wrote:
I'm not scum reading you for the read exactly, I'm scum reading you because you seem unwilling to interact with why the read might be wrong and because the way you're going about pushing it and interacting with me about it is scummy as fuck.
I mean if you can't accept the fact that I don't have the capability to look at his other games atm then idk what to tell you
Go ahead and scumread me for that. I don't really care
like "My reads are so bad!" right into "you can't criticize my read or I think you're scum together!" is a breathtaking lack of self awareness.
As I said I didn't think you were scum because your read was bad, I think you're scum because of the way you're going about pushing it and specifically how you're trying to chainsaw me into it.
you could believe me, a person who you were ostensibly town reading who has actually played with him, instead of doubling and tripling down and trying to tie me together in response because you're mad.
Yes, because if you spent like 10 seconds thinking about it you would realize you have never once in your life playing mafia seen a scum player interact with a scum read on their buddy the way I am doing right now. So either you're mad and not taking the time to think this through or you're scum imo.
In post 1282, Black wrote:
You know how I feel about meta so why would I blindly believe your weak meta read on OWER? You even said yourself you could be wrong. Like what?
In post 1283, Thestatusquo wrote:
Yes, because if you spent like 10 seconds thinking about it you would realize you have never once in your life playing mafia seen a scum player interact with a scum read on their buddy the way I am doing right now. So either you're mad and not taking the time to think this through or you're scum imo.
I've seen scum try to defuse a wagon before it really picks up speed by dropping a subtle townread on them, so idk what to tell you
In post 1111, OutWorldER wrote:
alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up
Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN
Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
In post 944, Black wrote:
Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff
Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please
If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd
In post 622, Roden wrote:
Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.
Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.
Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.
Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.
Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.
Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.
Enchant: Pass.
Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.
Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.
OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.
Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.
Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.
Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.
Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons
Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE
Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here
Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the
reasoning
she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.
I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.
As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.
Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.
In post 777, Roden wrote:
For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.
The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered
almost entirely in defense of himself
is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.
These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.
The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:
I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
First of all...rude
Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?
Who are you voting
You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town
I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade
It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?
In post 954, Roden wrote:
Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing
These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.
But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th
In post 973, Roden wrote:
Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead
Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim
In post 966, Roden wrote:
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
And you're still doing that today
That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude
Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...
On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he
ever
states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.
I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.
I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.
I don't know how to end this wall.
VOTE: Roden
The first problem I have with your case is that your argument seems to be based around the idea that he’s trying to appear like he was defending Wartortle before hard on D1. He hasn’t said anything to that effect, so everything you wrote after that is based on a flawed premise.
The second reason why it doesn’t work is that you said he suddenly flipped on Black and it was a random overreaction, but you’re ignoring the context a bit. Black voted for him and he said that Black can’t vote scum. It was obvious that he was saying that he knows he’s town and he’s frustrated that Black was voting for him, especially after her confident mislim yesterday.
But Black took the conversation in a completely different direction and started talking about all the other people she’s voted for and making the claim that Roden must be informed that they were all town. Roden asked her who she was voting for right now (him) and then Naerys jumped in and made a snarky post along the lines of “hello? Are you even paying attention to the game?”. She seemed to completely miss the point he was making and that just served to make him more frustrated. I’d get angry too after that.
His posts following that progression don’t feel like an overreaction when you take all of that into account, especially since Black kept egging him on and was also counting down how many people were on the wagon.
In post 1289, Thestatusquo wrote:
I've spent like 6 pages arguing it. Very subtle. Maybe no one will notice!
It was very subtle at first, now you are using AtE to try and blow it into "oh look I've been defending OWER for 6 pages!!11!!"
Like go look at your initial read when I asked you. You said he feels like he did in another town game you were in. That's the most basic townread you can drop. You gave me some extra stuff when I asked you to but then you shifted into attacking me. You're scum here
In post 1289, Thestatusquo wrote:
I've spent like 6 pages arguing it. Very subtle. Maybe no one will notice!
It was very subtle at first, now you are using AtE to try and blow it into "oh look I've been defending OWER for 6 pages!!11!!"
Like go look at your initial read when I asked you. You said he feels like he did in another town game you were in. That's the most basic townread you can drop. You gave me some extra stuff when I asked you to but then you shifted into attacking me. You're scum here
I haven't used AtE once here.
I have simply repeatedly pointed out that your read doesn't make sense and your attempt to shift over to attacking me makes even less sense.
In post 1235, Black wrote:
I think there's a real chance that Roden is the type of person that just can't handle being incorrectly pushed
Not even close, I've been mis-elim'd so many times for much dumber reasons. I just don't have WIM this game.
In post 1236, Black wrote:
Roden is probably going to hate me moving foward and he might not even play the game anymore but I think there's a greater chance in OWER flipping scum here
This is what frustrates me, we've barely interacted and you think I hate you. Like you just keep assuming things about how people think and act and it's like you can't imagine any other outcomes.
