Open 893 - 09:12 - Postgame

[Alianna]

2.01

Votecount 2.01

Gamma Emerald (E-2): Mizuki, Elements
imaginality (1): Puffalicious

Not Voting (4): Thomith, Gamma Emerald, ssbm_Kyouko, imaginality

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-12-06 12:48:37).

[Puffalicious]

A combination of re-reading the game during night phase, cannibalizing other people's reads, and associatives from the Cobb flip.

What is your response to 385, by the way?

It makes it hard for me to buy what you're saying and your inconsistency was very pingy. Progressions are very important and you did not show progression on your read on us. It would have looked alot more believable if you said something along the lines of, "I had a town read on Puff from last day but now my town read on them is starting to drop." After seeing the Cobbs flip, I put you as town on my reads list I made in the hydra chat and now that I saw your recent post I became paranoid of you.

What does cannibalizing other peoples reads mean?

My response to your other post is on the first paragraph this is what I believe and I became worried that town would never look into the set up of a miselim because scum can get away from doing it. Where I come from town hardly ever does it and they have individual reads instead.

- A

I very rarely have good progressions. I play very much "in the moment", so to speak, which can make me seem inconsistent. Are you also suspect of Kyouko here? She stated a "firm town" read on Elements in 254 and now 384 looks to be Kyouko now scumreading Elements.

When I say "cannibalizing" I'm basically just sheeping other people's reads. As I said I trust Imagi for right now, and you were suspected rather early in the day.

How many games have you played on MS (talking to Adorable specifically)? I can show you a few games where town lost because they were looking for a team rather than an individual scum-read. I've won scumgames off of that.

Kyouko's post on #384 did not make me suspect her. Cobb said like around 2 or 3 times they have a strong town read on Kyouko and after seeing their flip it made me think they tmied Kyouko town.

You accused my slot of cannabilizing and so are you saying I have been sheeping? Where have I been sheeping because it doesn't feel like I have been sheeping. You said you trust imagi and was it just his catch up you liked? Is there anything else you like about imagi?

I've only played alike around 12-15 games here. I don't know if you are misunderstanding me or not. You said you can show me a few games where town lost for looking for a team rather than individual scum read and my read on imagi was mainly his catch up post from day 1 how it looked like he paired me and cobb as a team when there has been no scum flip at that time and after seeing Cobb's flip I still suspected imagi and on day 2 I became worried he was setting up a day 2 miselim. Are you saying I am looking for team rather than individual scum read?

- A

I think we're both misunderstanding each other, I'm saying

I

was the one sheeping other people's reads, not that you were, and that's whats led me to my suspicion on you. I trust Imagi for the reasons I said in 385, I don't think the associatives or the theoretical scum strategy here are realistic.

I was asking if you suspected Kyouko because your reasons for suspecting me also feel like they should apply to her flipping from townreading Elements to now scumreading Elements on D2.

I'm saying that I Imagi pairing you and Cobb with no flip is NAI, since Town is just as likely to try to make associative reads before 1 party has even flipped. That's why I keep bringing up games where Town has lost looking for teams rather than individual scum.

You said I was cannibalizing reads and when I asked you what does that mean you said sheeping. I am still not able to understand what this means and when you said you suspected me for cannibalizing reads is it because I am not sheeping?

Kyouko's suspicion on Elements is not the same as your suspicion on me. You showed an inconsistency on your read on me and when you said on day 1 you agreed with Thomith on my slot being town and today you said my slot has been null scummy all game and if my slot has been null scummy all game then your town read on my slot day 1 should have never existed. The way how Kyouko phrased her suspicion on Elements was different from how you phrased your suspicion on my slot.

We have different views here because you said you imagi pairing me and Cobb is nai for you and for me I see it as scum indicative. I see no reason for town to pair 2 players as a scum team when there has been no scum flip. It looked manipulative to me and I do see scum doing this more. If imagi never paired me up with Cobb then my read on him would have been null.

- A

[Mizuki]

You said I was cannibalizing reads and when I asked you what does that mean you said sheeping. I am still not able to understand what this means and when you said you suspected me for cannibalizing reads is it because I am not sheeping?

Okay, let me make it clear. When I said "cannibalizing reads" I said that I, Mizuki, was the one doing that. It was a response to you asking me why I switched to scumreading you. Admittedly, I phrased it a bit poorly, but I am the one sheeping here. You sheeping or not sheeping has nothing to do with my read on you.

[Puffalicious]

I think I understand now and I'm assuming you suspect Gamma and me more because all the other players you are town reading.

- A

[Mizuki]

That's basically it. I'm very curious what Gamma was trying to say in 375 because it seemed to me like a pre-emptive defense of "well, I wouldn't kill Enchant here". From my perspective the push onto Enchant on the end of the game pinged me as trying to push momentum onto a player whose notoriously easy to scumread.

[Mizuki]

end of the day* woops

[Gamma Emerald]

Hypoclaim: Elements went nowhere last night

I do not have a hard guilty

NKA: Enchant is an odd kill here. His only votes were on Kyouko and the hammer on Cobb, and his only real interaction of the day was with Gamma, who I'm not sure he was even scumreading. Two possibilities immediately present themselves to me, one being that he was simply killed for being a low-info, low associative kill. The other is that Enchant quickhammering after Cobb claimed Follower might've made the last scum think he was a PR. The former scenario is what worries me, since it implies a deep-wolf I think.

I think imaginaility has to be town here, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging at their partner, especially since it was his vote that really restarted the Cobb wagon and imaginality never really offered an alternative wagon other than Puff. That kind of bussing on D1, especially when we had like 3 days left in the deadline at that point, in a 2-scum setup? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Two main suspects for today are Puff and Gamma. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Cobb wagon was all town and the Enchant push at the end of the day from Gamma smells bad to me, and Puff has looked null to scummy all game so far.

I think I'll start here for today:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I have played with Enchant a fair amount, do you think I would have been unaware of his playstyle, or that I just opted to disadvantage myself?

Not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying you don't make the Enchant kill here because his playstyle would benefit you as scum?

I'm saying me pushing Enchant yesterday is the part that doesn't make sense

[Mizuki]

Hypoclaim: Elements went nowhere last night

I do not have a hard guilty

NKA: Enchant is an odd kill here. His only votes were on Kyouko and the hammer on Cobb, and his only real interaction of the day was with Gamma, who I'm not sure he was even scumreading. Two possibilities immediately present themselves to me, one being that he was simply killed for being a low-info, low associative kill. The other is that Enchant quickhammering after Cobb claimed Follower might've made the last scum think he was a PR. The former scenario is what worries me, since it implies a deep-wolf I think.

I think imaginaility has to be town here, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging at their partner, especially since it was his vote that really restarted the Cobb wagon and imaginality never really offered an alternative wagon other than Puff. That kind of bussing on D1, especially when we had like 3 days left in the deadline at that point, in a 2-scum setup? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Two main suspects for today are Puff and Gamma. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Cobb wagon was all town and the Enchant push at the end of the day from Gamma smells bad to me, and Puff has looked null to scummy all game so far.

I think I'll start here for today:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I have played with Enchant a fair amount, do you think I would have been unaware of his playstyle, or that I just opted to disadvantage myself?

Not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying you don't make the Enchant kill here because his playstyle would benefit you as scum?

I'm saying me pushing Enchant yesterday is the part that doesn't make sense

Would you care to go into more detail as to why?

[Gamma Emerald]

With how much I've played with Enchant, do you not think I'd realize pushing Enchant would drive him towards voting Cobb? Given that, why would I push there when my alleged scumbuddy was on the hook?

[Mizuki]

I have no frame of reference for how many games you've played with Enchant. I've been off-site for a little while.

Did you push Enchant specifically so he would hammer Cobb? If so, why didn't you just hammer Cobb yourself?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Just to be clear I am not currently scumreading Elements - until I metadive her to see if she normally makes low-effort metadives as town, I will continue to TR her. If i find that she normally puts more effort in as town, or that she has a pattern of making this kind of lazy meta push as scum, then the only scenario where she could have been scum is a lot more likely because cobb did flip scum. If you look back at when Mizuki was pushing me about my confidence in my read on Elements, you will note that the only scenario where scum!Elements makes sense is if the team is exactly {Cobb, Elements}. I don't think I survive the Night if this was the case but I'm not going to let that WIFOM deter me from meta diving Elements to verify what her townplay is like.

[Puffalicious]

With how much I've played with Enchant, do you not think I'd realize pushing Enchant would drive him towards voting Cobb? Given that, why would I push there when my alleged scumbuddy was on the hook?

We were both off the wagon and your vote did look a bit like you were uninformed who did not know Cobb is mafia and I can relate to this. That's the only thing I could maybe see a world where you are town. All of yours posts have been nai and I'm null on you. Do you have updated reads?

- A

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also this Gamma posting is scumpinging me, I'm pretty sure she has done this before - made a kill that "doesnt make sense for her to have made" and argued against it. I'll have to confirm that too. I won't have time for either metadive until tomorrow

[Elements]

Just to be clear I am not currently scumreading Elements - until I metadive her to see if she normally makes low-effort metadives as town, I will continue to TR her. If i find that she normally puts more effort in as town, or that she has a pattern of making this kind of lazy meta push as scum, then the only scenario where she could have been scum is a lot more likely because cobb did flip scum. If you look back at when Mizuki was pushing me about my confidence in my read on Elements, you will note that the only scenario where scum!Elements makes sense is if the team is exactly {Cobb, Elements}. I don't think I survive the Night if this was the case but I'm not going to let that WIFOM deter me from meta diving Elements to verify what her townplay is like.

if you metadive me you'll find very different iso's to this game

[Gamma Emerald]

I have no frame of reference for how many games you've played with Enchant. I've been off-site for a little while.

Did you push Enchant specifically so he would hammer Cobb? If so, why didn't you just hammer Cobb yourself?

I thought Enchant was scummy. I also wasn't townreading Cobb so I didn't mind the outcome.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also this Gamma posting is scumpinging me, I'm pretty sure she has done this before - made a kill that "doesnt make sense for her to have made" and argued against it. I'll have to confirm that too. I won't have time for either metadive until tomorrow

[Gamma Emerald]

I am a roleblocker that targeted kyouko btw

[imaginality]

Hypoclaims:

* Imaginality roleblocked Elements
* ssbm_Kyouko followed imaginality and saw him jailkeeping
* Thomith rolecopped Puffalicious and got a result of Vanilla
* Mizuki tracked Elements and saw them go nowhere
* Elements jailkept Mizuki
* Gamma Emerald roleblocked ssbm_Kyouko

@Puff, what's your hypoclaim?

[Puffalicious]

Gamma not having updated reads is concerning because it makes it looks like a scum play that doesn't want to solve.

- A

[Puffalicious]

Jailkept Kyouko

- A

[imaginality]

VOTE: Puffalicious

This isn't purely about Cobb's interactions with Puff. My Puff-specific reasons are:

- 81 as previously mentioned (seemed slightly eager to quickly dismiss Celeboki's townread on Kyouko and Mizuki)
- 204 as previously mentioned (anti-omgus)
- 376 seemed like deliberately fishing to see if my hypoclaim is true
- 386 implausible to have not realised that my "hypoclaim: I roleblocked Elements" was a hypoclaim
- I get a whiff of the "caught for the wrong reasons" with the complaints of being suspected D1 for interactions

That said, I'm interested to see what Kyouko comes back with about Gamma Emerald's meta.

I don't see myself limming anyone outside those two today:
- I took a look at Thomith, and initially he seemed plausible as a possible partner (rvs vote on Cobb, no other votes, casting bit of suspicion on me at a time I was pushing on Cobb) but 329 scumreading Cobb when Cobb was quite clearly under threat of being limmed is at least reasonably clearing, plus I feel like a scumbuddy would more likely have re-voted someone else by then rather than sitting there doing nothing votewise
- If someone on the wagon decided to bus Cobb and try to survive three lims and dodge the PRs, good luck to them, they deserve a ride to D3 for their chutzpah

[Thomith]

While my Vote on Cobb started as RVS, I mentioned my suspicion on them multiple times and stated that was the reason my vote stayed there for so long.

Due to how Cobb interacted with Puff early on in the day, jumping on the Puff suspicion after the wagon was gaining speed, and even though they unvoted, kept mentioning they suspected Puff for a long time after unvoting them to stop Puff falling out of discussion as being a possible elimination, I have a hard time believing that Puff is the partner. I'll explain more with examples once I'm home from work later.

If we are between Puff and Gamma, I'd prefer to get Gamma here.
Because Cobb was also on Gamma for a lot of the day, I think there's a chance that Gamma isnt scum either, and we just have a deep wolf.
I doubt it's you, unless you pulled a real nasty gambit by hard bussing Cobb, and I feel good about Kyouko as well.

My gut is pinging on Mizuki, but I really don't know why, so dont want to pursue that at the moment. I need to reread Elements I think.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So much bloop in other games

no bloop here

this makes me a bloop axolotl

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I've been through Elements' ISO in all of their completed games from this year.

When I say

evidence

, what I'm looking for are any references to meta. I try to start with a broad approach and if I notice a specific pattern I will try to hone in on that, but here there was not one (related to Elements using meta at least, there was a NAI pattern I found).

large 245:
no evidence, low postcount

booneytoonz: town
243: nothing you've done is out of your scum range (I later learned that Elements said this about a player they know IRL when reading another game they played together in where that player was town and Elements was scum)
1519: counts every post (53) in the iso of theta and categorizes it

grand idea:
74 post count replace-in, no evidence
fruit mafia:
replaced out, low postcount, no evidence

normal 2302: scum
119 "I'm not a fan of meta partly because most of the time I get bored reading other people's past games"
169 - are you gonna meta me or? (in response to being SRed for making up reads D1 and then claiming she always does this)
272 - self-metas to defend self against Morning Tweet suspecting
935 - "im not going to meta myself"

Mini 2291: town
replaced out, low postcount, but something to note that I found to be accurate was this bit of self-meta:
255 - Elements is a self-professed wagon-follower on D1 (like they like to vote for large wagons to push through pretty much any elimination) She was a a follower in this game so makes sense she just wanted nights, but she says this about herself in another game iirc and from reading her ISOs from this year I found it to be accurate as both alignments she vote hops a lot on D1.

HMS Mutiny: scum - lots of vote hopping like they do as town (no meta evidence)

Open 872 (Guardians of the fortress): scum
116: dont have a long enough memory to remember scum/town games unless it's recent

I'd say that overall the results are inconclusive. I'll retract that it's unlikely for that lazy read to come from scum!Elements though, in light of the Cobblerfone flip. scum!Elements would have had motivation to try to move the wagon away from Cobb. If anything Elements' NAI pattern of being vote-hoppy on D1 might indicate they had knowledge Cobb would flip scum and were trying to avoid it. My impression from their ISOs is that they just want to kill anyone D1 when they are town or scum. I don't have context on any of their votes from those ISOs though - like idk if as town they have been known to flip-flop off of a close-to-elimination wagon

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If I remember correctly on Gamma I'm thinking of Owner's Market Blitz, maybe Mountain Dew Mafia, maybe Isekai uPick. She might not have been scum in mountain dew mafia. There's a plethora of unnamed Normals in my "My Games" text file wherein Gamma may have been scum, but I wouldn't recall those ones just from reading the game number and I don't track all the other players and their alignments/roles in my file - only my own. I'll take a peek at those ones. I should probably check Radio Buzz as well as I misread her in that game and

faked a guilty