open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[Black]

but i think project is more than capable of defending himself and i'd rather see him do that than someone else, thanks.

I mean Project is my top townread so I'm going to raise my eyebrows when someone pushes that for reasons I don't think are valid. But ok I'll take a step back for now

i feel like we've both seen examples of scum newbies getting passes for posting a lot of words and looking solvey at the surface level. it happens a lot. so i don't see why you think my reasons aren't valid.

You're not going to convince anyone that he's just trying to look solvey until you point out specific posts that gave you this feeling. I could point to several instances where his thoughts feel genuine and deeper than surface level. I think you should have this discussion with Project though, not me. Like I said I'll take a step back here and let that happen

[JupiterXV]

I haven't liked Jupiter's responses the past few pages. Can you tell me what about Dannflor's push was becoming threatening if you townlean him in 264?

being intimidated =/= feeling threatened ?
i've talked about this before. dannflor seems experienced. dannflor vibes with me. dann seems incredibly cool and very competent of this game. thus i am intimidated.

[JupiterXV]

not contributing can certainly appear to be not townie, sure. but if i were scum, don't you think i'd be more worried about optics? how do you think i would stand to benefit from what i'm doing if i were scum?

this was honestly exactly what i was thinking- went in adhd, noted sky seemed incredibly unconcerned and then now that sky has used this exact defense it's a little bit less credible in my mind, especially since they currently seem to be arguing with black(?)

[JupiterXV]

Sky, I get what you're doing and knock it off.

the only thing i'm doing is letting my adhd run rampant

i also have adhd and i'm letting it run rampant right here in this thread

[Dannflor]

jupiter called me incredibly cool so jupiter can be town

[JupiterXV]

Black, thoughts on my theory? If you suppose K is scum, does t3 look like a partner? If we suppose t3 is scum, does k look like a partner?

i actually think this theory makes sense- kurtapika and t3 seem like a plausible duo
though i can't say much about how t3's talked about kurtapika since i don't think he has? and he's still on v/la iirc

[OutWorldER]

I don't like Dannflor's vote but I only think it makes him scum if Kurtapika flips scum

Could you explain this logic more? I'm not sure it tracks. Kurtapika is voting Skygazer here, while Dann's voting a person pushing Skygazer. If anything I think Dann only flips scum here if Skygazer does.

I think Skygazer's case against Project is reasonable but I'm not liking how Skygazer is actually defending themselves here. A lot of "Well this is a bad play for scum to do so clearly I wouldn't be doing it" type arguments.

I think there's one Maf in this argument but I'm not super confident on which one it is.

[JupiterXV]

jupiter called me incredibly cool so jupiter can be town

zoinks

[ProjEctRy]

Something is going wrong with the quote posts so I'm going to have to respond in stages.

It seems likes you are actively working against trying to contribute. Even after today when this has been pointed out to you, you still have yet to contribute anything meaningful. Your posts have all mainly been fluff.

again, it's been six days. i'm at least trying today. and i'm not posting a wall to justify voting a player just for low activity.

It certainly feels like an active choice. You've been around posting a lot today, but still nothing meaningful. Until your vote on me (which I'll come onto) you still hadn't shared a single thought on other players alignments. I also asked you your thoughts at 555, but you haven't responded to that.

i think my posts have been at least somewhat meaningful. i haven't digested a lot of the game yet and i'm not about to make up reads just because someone asked me for reads. i'll post my reads on my own time as they come to me. and you never responded to me asking why you thought i said i was busy.

Unfortunately, aside from now engaging me, I still don't think you have contributed anything meaningful today. You even state you're not going to 'make up reads' which I take to be provide any thoughts just because someone asked you to.

It also wasn't a wall just to justify my vote. We were having a discussion, I was responding to you.

[JupiterXV]

I don't like Dannflor's vote but I only think it makes him scum if Kurtapika flips scum

Could you explain this logic more? I'm not sure it tracks. Kurtapika is voting Skygazer here, while Dann's voting a person pushing Skygazer. If anything I think Dann only flips scum here if Skygazer does.

I think Skygazer's case against Project is reasonable but I'm not liking how Skygazer is actually defending themselves here. A lot of "Well this is a bad play for scum to do so clearly I wouldn't be doing it" type arguments.

I think there's one Maf in this argument but I'm not super confident on which one it is.

posts like this are why i townread outworld

[JupiterXV]

I’m still looking at Jupiter and Shaddow. Trouble is you and Jupiter are camped on Shaddow.

am i not allowed to be voting shaddow? you haven't actually spoken much about shadow in your prior posts so this feels a bit out of the blue

[JupiterXV]

Using meta in some capacity is fine. Using it as the sole reason for a vote, and only comparing two games, is what annoys me. People don't use meta correctly. I could link to all the times people have used meta incorrectly on me in my signature and people would still be like "oh Black's playing like her scum game!!!"

as that one person you quoted said: "meta this, meta that, have you ever meta girl"

tbh black's frustration here reads townie

[ProjEctRy]

In regards to the optics, yes potentially, but it feels like one of those situations where you do something so clearly scummy that you hide behind the defence of well I'm obviously not scum because I'd never do anything as stupidly obvious as that.

i mean, in what way does that benefit scum-me? it would catch up to me eventually. wifom like that is not a great survival mechanism in the long term.

Also, your position here seems to be 'my current contribution (or lack of) isn't a problem, ignore it, I'll contribute more later in the game'. That's almost like asking for a pass for day 1. You want to be left alone to coast by, which is suspicious.

it's not suspicious. i have done this many times before. i will continue to do this. in fact, judging by the join dates of the two people voting me, i have a hunch that i'll continue getting away with it, because the people that know me don't seem to be bothered enough to even press me that hard on it. maybe its problematic behavior on my part but i get away with it because i'm funny.

The benefit for scum-you would be that you do think you could get away with it. You literally say 'I have a hunch that I'll continue getting away with it'. Your position is that the experienced players know what this is so they wouldn't vote you for it. Well then you could get away with it if you were really playing it from a scum angle.

[Skygazer]

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

But I do think that’s a very basic, newbie take from me.

These posts seem too hedgey, feels like he's preemptively trying to respond to anyone who questions his reads by excusing himself as a new player.

Aside from that, he's just asking a lot of questions and not really following through on them that much. At least not as much as I'd expect from someone actually trying to solve via the questions. I'm not tracking his thought processes to the extent you are, to me they just seem like questions he's throwing out there for the sake of asking questions. Furthermore, the first real vote he laid down tosses all of the thought processes that might be there out the window to go for what I perceive to be a vote that scum would feel extremely comfortable making. It's hard to find specific quotes because this is very much just an "overall vibe" kinda thing.

[Skygazer]

not contributing can certainly appear to be not townie, sure. but if i were scum, don't you think i'd be more worried about optics? how do you think i would stand to benefit from what i'm doing if i were scum?

this was honestly exactly what i was thinking- went in adhd, noted sky seemed incredibly unconcerned and then now that sky has used this exact defense it's a little bit less credible in my mind, especially since they currently seem to be arguing with black(?)

defending myself is scummy now? ppl are sus at me for not caring about the game and then get sus for me caring about the game? there's no winning huh

[Titus]

VOTE: project

*sigh* bad vote

[Titus]

Ok gut t3 + k, no reasons just impulse

do you have any townreads?

Yes. Everyone but k, t3 and my pocket read.

[JupiterXV]

Jupiter is doing nothing whatsoever to make himself look less like scum FMPOV. The only reason to manufacture a read on someone is if you already know their alignment. If he's town, there's no good defense for not reading a post and claiming it's AI (either way), then digging his heels in and finally saying he lied about reading it doesn't help at all. His vote on me and his reason for trying to get people to vote me also feels very OMGUSy, as it's "his push on me sucks, therefore he's scum"

and yeah there's no good defense, i'm not even trying to? as i said i skimmed it and moved on since the beginning of it seemed fine. that's how that whole debacle happened. i was just trying to read through everything so i could actively be a part of conversation, because i'm gone during the day
in fact i'd argue that as scum i would have zero reason to do that and put such a big target on my back? like what do i gain from "not reading" a post and slapping a random alignment on it when i read everything after it and saw that it was a rather contentious post (e.g with kurtapika the rest of the posts in the page were talking abotu PoE or the vote they placed on sky)
honestly i do not give a crap about this whole "not reading a post" thing, it's really just NAI. getting real sick and tired of continually getting accused of being scum about it?

also you haven't pushed anyone besides me. if you were pushing someone else i would still be scumreading you. i've been asking you about your reasoning and you've just let those responses drop. there's no reason for me to rescind my scumread when your responses on me are still scummy

[Skygazer]

I think Skygazer's case against Project is reasonable but I'm not liking how Skygazer is actually defending themselves here. A lot of "Well this is a bad play for scum to do so clearly I wouldn't be doing it" type arguments.

if it makes you feel better, i make these stupid self-meta arguments as both alignments. i purposefully dumbtell/badtell a lot as scum to try and reflect my town game. so i get where you're coming from

[JupiterXV]

not contributing can certainly appear to be not townie, sure. but if i were scum, don't you think i'd be more worried about optics? how do you think i would stand to benefit from what i'm doing if i were scum?

this was honestly exactly what i was thinking- went in adhd, noted sky seemed incredibly unconcerned and then now that sky has used this exact defense it's a little bit less credible in my mind, especially since they currently seem to be arguing with black(?)

defending myself is scummy now? ppl are sus at me for not caring about the game and then get sus for me caring about the game? there's no winning huh

i didn't say that defending yourself was scummy. it's just that a lot of your early defense posts are just about what you have to benefit from this and while it's a valid argument you've just been repeating it a lot! i can't force you to be active but i appreciate your activity a lot

[JupiterXV]

Why would it not? It’s rather immaterial to be honest in my opinion. But if you really need an answer Then it did, but only for a moment.

Because your whole read is based on Open 888 and I didn't get defensive at all when being pushed as scum in that game. It doesn't feel like you are putting much thought into this read at all

I am putting into it all I can based on experience.

Are you now trying to cast doubt on my ability to play the game?

The more you try to push me away from my read the more I will stay firm on it.

where in the world did this come out of

[Skygazer]

Unfortunately, aside from now engaging me, I still don't think you have contributed anything meaningful today. You even state you're not going to 'make up reads' which I take to be provide any thoughts just because someone asked you to.

It also wasn't a wall just to justify my vote. We were having a discussion, I was responding to you.

what kind of contributions do you expect from someone who hasn't really participated whatsoever? it just seems like an arbitrary goal post shift, i don't get how you can look at someone who only just started contributing and complain that they haven't contributed enough. the contributions will take time, i can't provide thoughts when i don't have any yet.

i say wall because i feel like your argument took you in circles a bit. it seems like you were too skittish to place a vote, so when you finally go to place a vote you had to overjustify it. that's what i was trying to get at.

[JupiterXV]

I don’t like this idea. To me that is not the best move for town, just a random lim on a low contributor. I appreciate there is likely scum essentially hiding in the shadows but it’s a complete shot in the dark.

Surely it’s better to lim someone specific we have some suspicion over rather than just a complete random lim?

this feels at odds with his vote on me

VOTE: proj

i think his vote on you is because you pulled up and declared you wouldn't be doing much at all- while you were just inactive before now you're here but just saying you won't be contributing much

[ProjEctRy]

There is a difference between the two positions.

I'm opposed to a pure random elimination on a low contributor - in this situation there is no suspicion whatsoever. The player has contributed nothing to gauge any suspicious.

The difference with you is that whilst my suspicion arises from your lack of contribution, I'm not voting for you purely because you haven't contributed, but rather due to your reasoning or attitude behind not contributing.

i mean, the oblivion thing was shitposting to some extent, as i clarified later. even so, i don't see any sort of functional difference between "i'm busy" and "i've been distracted by other things." so i don't think there's an actual difference between the two positions, i think you just wanted to make an easy push.

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t understand your post here? I’m wasn’t talking about a difference between ‘I’m busy’ and ‘I’ve been distracted by other things’. I was talking about the difference in eliminating someone based purely off of no content vs. eliminating someone based off of their reasoning for low contribution.

Also, I forgot when quoting your other part to respond to the question re: why I thought you were busy. I must have misinterpreted you.

[JupiterXV]

there are other parts of his iso i dont like too fwiw

Care to share?

it feels like you're playing to get townread instead of playing to solve. can't find the words beyond that at the moment.
[/quote]

are you willing to find quotes? ive always found project's posts to be generally towny if not a bit hollow