open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[schadd_]

Spoiler:

vote count 1.9 !

Kurtapika (5):

Titus, Bellaphant, Aisa, Dannflor, JupiterXV

Skygazer (2):

ProjEctRy, OutWorldER

ProjEctRy (1):

Skygazer

Bellaphant (1):

T3

T3 (1):

Nono

Black (1):

Afrayed Knott

Afrayed Knott (1):

Black

not voting (2):

Kurtapika, shaddowez

with 14 alive, it takes 8 to over-represent someone's malice. day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-12-06 13:48:14)

moderateur notes

• i have T3 v/la for another short while
  
• i have Afrayed Knott v/la for a slightly longer while
  
• i have Black v/la for the same while length as Afrayed Knott
  
• burger

[Dannflor]

I guess i don't super think projectry is paired with kurtapika for whatever that's worth

[Bellaphant]

Maybe I'm not wording it right. Or reading right. I saw knot call out your defensiveness, which I also see, and then you specifically asked whether you were like that in the open game?

At the time I was trying to determine if Afrayed's read was real or not. I explained it in 603. He said he started doubting his read when he pushed me because I was chill, but in the Open game I was chill when being pushed and I was scum, so it didn't make sense that he would think "being chill when pushed" = town!Black

That's even weirder, because you aren't being chill? On them, not you, I guess. I've been drinking wine black.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Kurtapika

E-2

[ProjEctRy]

So I’ve been doing some ISO on Titus and it’s certainly shifted me to towards a scum read or her.

Titus’s post history resolves almost exclusively around her theory of a scum team between Kurtapika and T3, however her reasoning is incredibly weak. Despite having peddled this theory from the beginning of the game to now, the theory essentially remains based around a ‘gut feeling’.

Her suspicion of Kurtapika arose out finding Kurt ‘awkward and distant’ 130. Whilst the distant could be justified based upon Kurtapika’s lack of contribution by that point, I don’t find anything awkward in Kurtapika’s 60. Titus hasn’t really relied upon much else in relation to Kurtapika aside from Kurtapika’s lack of interaction with T3 (although I question this itself below).

In regards to T3, Titus hasn’t provided any explanation whatsoever as to why T3 is scum aside from the fact that Kurtapika hasn’t mentioned T3. That is an incredibly weak basis to form this theory out of because 1. I believe there is several instances within this game where X player still hasn’t discussed X player. 2. By the point this theory arose at 544, Titus herself hadn’t discussed T3, so her theory is applicable to herself.

@Titus. Please can you elaborate upon why your theory has any merit and why you seemingly haven’t considered elsewhere.

I’m beginning to lean scum on Titus based upon the above. She has peddled a baseless theory all game long and appears to have tunnel vision. Her contribution is surface level and doesn’t seem to be contributing much to the towns agenda. However, I’m not 100% there yet as she does have some posts I consider townie.

However, as Titus is now V/la I’m going to leave my vote with Sky until Titus responds.

FYI - I can see Kurtapika is nearing lim. The above is about Titus’s views of Kurtapika. I haven’t really gotten around to reviewing everyone else’s opinion of Kurtapika.

[ProjEctRy]

Also @Titus, are you a lawyer/advocate/solicitor (not sure where you are from, terminology is different around the world). You referred to being busy prepping for a trial.

There is a reason why I ask but I want to hear your response first. Obviously that’s kinda personal so if you don’t want to reveal that it’s cool. Also, apologies if it’s inappropriate to ask about real world stuff. If someone could just let me know if it’s not to be asked.

[Dannflor]

what is your read on kurtapika, projectry

[Titus]

I haven't read the substance on your post but I saw this. I am an American lawyer and it very much fuels my thinking.

I was prepping my close. Jury will have the case soon.

VLA until Monday

I will make an effort to reply to the substance though.

[ProjEctRy]

what is your read on kurtapika, projectry

I’ll get back to you. I’ll do an ISO on Kurtapika next.

[ProjEctRy]

what is your read on kurtapika, projectry

I’ll get back to you. I’ll do an ISO on Kurtapika next.

Although I should have prefaced this with ‘it might take me some time’. My god did it take me ages to do an ISO on Titus haha

[Dannflor]

do you have any gut thoughts right now pre-doing an ISO?

or no real opinion on Kurta up until this point

[ProjEctRy]

do you have any gut thoughts right now pre-doing an ISO?

or no real opinion on Kurta up until this point

I’m not really sure. There has been a couple of things he’s said which I’ve questioned.

I found his read (at that point) at 60 on you odd. See my posts at 144 and 249.

I also didn’t like his suggestion at 335 that the best move was to random lim someone purely for low contribution. See my posts 337 and 527.

Otherwise, even though he’s the hot topic I haven’t really thought about him much as I’ve been preoccupied with other discussion so will need to review him.

FYI the ISO on him will have to be tomorrow. I’m going to bed soon!

[ProjEctRy]

Her suspicion of Kurtapika arose out finding Kurt ‘awkward and distant’ 130. Whilst the distant could be justified based upon Kurtapika’s lack of contribution by that point, I don’t find anything awkward in Kurtapika’s 60. Titus hasn’t really relied upon much else in relation to Kurtapika aside from Kurtapika’s lack of interaction with T3 (although I question this itself below).

Just a quick correction. I stated I hadn’t found anything ‘awkward’ in Kurtapika’s post at 60. I don’t find the post ‘awkward’, but I did find the read on Dann odd, however Titus never really seemed to discuss that so I don’t think it formed part of her reasoning.

[ProjEctRy]

I don't think Titus is super town but I don't really think she's scummy either. Her tone/demeanor feels pretty relaxed in a good way imo. Her gut reactions/takes have seems pretty genuine and it seems like her posting hasn't really been geared towards trying to get town read, so I guess I slightly lean town on her?

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

Dann, whilst we’re on the topic of Titus. In your post above, what did you find genuine about Titus’s gut reactions / takes?

To me those gut reactions / takes were incredibly hollow. They have no real justification, so I struggle to find them genuine. They feel forced to me.

[ProjEctRy]

I haven't read the substance on your post but I saw this. I am an American lawyer and it very much fuels my thinking.

I was prepping my close. Jury will have the case soon.

VLA until Monday

I will make an effort to reply to the substance though.

The reason I asked was because as you’re a lawyer I’d expect you to be able to formulate concise and strong arguments. However, this is in stark contrast to your theory regarding Kurtapika or T3 (regardless of which way they flip) and gut feelings.

This does make me question your game to date, particularly given you state your profession fuels your thinking. It appears to me you’re playing against how I’d expect you to play based upon your comments.

[Titus]

There are two major assumptions in your thinking.

1) All people are convinced in the same way. Maybe a case convinces you but others like to find the answers themselves. There is no universal convincing case.

2) Lawyers making a case is different here. However, I play more like a judge rather than a lawyer. I listen for the facts and make a ruling. Either a mod pronouncement or something radical is needed once a read is hard.

I used to play more like a stubborn advocate but that made me more heated and less effective. Sometimes I fall but I try not to.

[Titus]

As for my read on K, it would not be more substantial with more words. You could write a wall on my posts allegedly having no depth but the more words you use, the more you undermine.

My case on K is the same. It's about awkward speech and the absence of logical follow through with T3. I'll spoiler a longer case tmo for you.

As for T3 you will get more comfortable about reading teams when you play more. K is treating T3 like a partner and my secret read is treating K like I would if I was scum with K.

[Kurtapika]

personally i want to move my vote to project but i'm also pretty convinced on kurtapika, especially considering the blatant lack of solving and scumreads coming from kurta (e.g i literally asked them hey what're your scumreads" and they didnt answer)

Are you talking about 545? Why disregard 566?

My biggest SR is the last person I want to engage with. It gives them the opportunity to look town. Doubly so when it's the absence of things that's scummy.

Don't like the crumbing, but this is a pretty straight forwardly town reaction so I suppose I wouldn't take anything from Titus here.

I guess the way the reads are falling at this point means if I get eliminated it would make things clearer for town D2 than otherwise, so in a way it could still be conducive. Mainly on the front of potential town alignments but I'm uneasy about the possibility of the theory becoming an easy excuse to bw miselim, if scum pick up on it, so I would be observing for that. Though at that point it wouldn't be my area to respond to.

[Titus]

Can you rephrase everything from Mainly onward? I read that 3 times and was huh?

[JupiterXV]

Why disregard 566?

okay i know this isn't gonna sound good considering my previous track record with skimming posts but i literally fixated only on this line ("I haven't liked Jupiter's responses the past few pages. Can you tell me what about Dannflor's push was becoming threatening if you townlean him in 264?") of the post and moved on i did not read anything else i am so fucking sorry kurta. bro adhd brains are fucked up how did i miss a post clearly adressed to me

[JupiterXV]

how did this happen again and why is it always you

[Aisa]

personally i want to move my vote to project but i'm also pretty convinced on kurtapika, especially considering the blatant lack of solving and scumreads coming from kurta (e.g i literally asked them hey what're your scumreads" and they didnt answer)

Are you talking about 545? Why disregard 566?

My biggest SR is the last person I want to engage with. It gives them the opportunity to look town. Doubly so when it's the absence of things that's scummy.

Don't like the crumbing, but this is a pretty straight forwardly town reaction so I suppose I wouldn't take anything from Titus here.

I guess the way the reads are falling at this point means if I get eliminated it would make things clearer for town D2 than otherwise, so in a way it could still be conducive.

Mainly on the front of potential town alignments

but I'm uneasy about the possibility of the theory becoming an easy excuse to bw miselim, if scum pick up on it, so I would be observing for that. Though at that point it wouldn't be my area to respond to.

Can you rephrase everything from Mainly onward? I read that 3 times and was huh?

Seconding Titus. It sounds like you think some people would be more / less suspicious after you flip town. Can you be more explicit about what the implications of your elimination would be?

[Aisa]

[...]

I haven't liked anything from Afrayed Knott at all. Can't find a solid line of organic reasoning from his posts and 601 would appear especially bad in this department. Tunnel and the protraction of the meta argument feels like scum feeling the need to lock into a push after being pointed out in 612. The last two pages aren't pinging as townie reaction most of all.

605 is towny and I'm not feeling shaddowez lim here, makes me think team is outside him. Thinking about scenarios for Afrayed Knott.

622 feels like it's jumping onto the same line of reasoning, with Project presenting as a potential third.

Could be scum with T3 or Aisa depending on flip but neither have said anything in response. Nono is also possible and feels likely.

The entirety of Project's argument against Skygazer, and looking at potential deliberacy on his part in 663 (perhaps more so Project's 684 in response, cited again as the last paragraph in 726) makes me extremely interested in Afrayed's flip. ISO mainly has neither make mention of each other other than to reiterate points and potentially preemptively to emphasise on Project's defence of unfamiliarity.

632 feels like something of an absurd conclusion to come to considering VC and the relative trajectory of the thread not undergoing a major change since then but I don't think there's scum in this anyway. The response as quoted in 707 is giving the opposite impression with Project's assumption just looking bad.

Tentative on Jupiter but their engagement with the Skygazer situation has been giving a slight tr and I'm in agreement with 695 on the mentioned posts.

Can you also clarify the bolded? What is the "same line of reasoning" project is jumping onto in 622?
You seem to think Project could be the third person on a scumteam with Afrayed Knott, but who is the second?

[Aisa]

Ooh Dann
Can you elaborate on how you feel about kurtapika a bit more?
Why did you say your scumread was cooling and why are you back on him now?

P-edit: lol some parts of the questions still stand

761 is not good

it feels like someone narrating the game from the sidelines rather than actually playing the game, which I think comes from scum a lot more of the time

stuff like:

"Now that the activity's sorted. Going to be looking at the backlog for individual posts here."

is performative in the type of way I see from scum a lot, basically narrating the background processes that are going on so that people know you are having Real Townie Thoughts

that post just had me reread him and largely I like the original wagon composition on Kurtapika so I think it's a good bet

I'm going to respond to this and also ramble about Kurta for a bit.

My reaction to your case is that I don't completely disagree. I've been a wall-posting scum player a couple times and I see where you're coming from with respect to their posting potentially being performative. Kurta's clearly writing in a very deliberate and measured way.

I also find that their lack of a clear direction or purpose in the game could come from scum. (Feels a little ironic that they accused me of being "overly middleman" when I'm having similar problems reading them.) Posts 566 and 761 seem like the best we have in terms of updated reads. Looking at 566:

Spoiler:

gun to my head given I've expressed not having substantial scumreads multiple times...? I'd only have conjecture dependent off flips in that case, since I'm kind of forced to work backwards with finding a team outside of current trs.

shaddowez's 209 being a point of discussion makes me think if he flips scum it's only going to be with T3, otherwise if T3 is town so is shaddowez. Dannflor has been consistently a tr for me but if shaddowez is scum that's less of a certain thing for him. Although I'm still on the fence about Aisa, that's a potential third option if none turn up from the lurkers. Similar situation for an Afrayed Knott flip but evidently neither him or shaddowez are scum with Jupiter.

I haven't liked Jupiter's responses the past few pages. Can you tell me what about Dannflor's push was becoming threatening if you townlean him in 264?

Their style seems to be to discuss many players as potential scumreads, each shallowly. I have some trouble developing a read on this in general, but it seems possible that this could be a way to generate content as scum. Their most developed scumread seems to be their read on Afrayed Knott in 761, which is very easy. I don't think easy pushes are always wrong, but this doesn't allay my worries that they're picking "easy" things to comment on.

BUT

I find myself a bit disappointed this seems to be the best case I can make against them at this point. Some of the things we're scumreading them for are clearly playstyle differences. For example, they've said they are not used to not having a night 0, and this partially explains the general aimlessless, the fact they're giving more associative reads than reads in isolation, etc. Even if Kurtapika is scum this game, in an alternate universe we'd be dealing with the town manifestation of these problems. I'm just not sure what the town and scum manifestations looks like at the moment.

You're welcome to comment on any of this btw Kurta

UNVOTE:
I will probably be willing to hop back onto this, but I feel inspired to look around a bit for the moment

[Bellaphant]

I was just thinking something different but similar, about how little sense things like k thinking that their wagon would show a lot after their elim, when one of the reasons I'm happy with his wagon is that is looks full of fairly town people (and aisa )

But then where's the scum advantage in saying that? But then why would town really believe that either?